CNN talked about the bankruptcy bill today. Dems are worried...

I posted part of this at the end of another thread, but I think its needs it own thread. Two of the centrist groups in our party wrote letters to Dennis Hastert to please bring the bill up for a vote. It was a horrible bill. I wrote about it earlier because it will hurt so many people.

The bankruptcy bill and Blue Dogs and New Dems..



Here is more on it. Glad to see CNN cover it.

More about what they passed. Here is part of the interview, a very good one with a guy named Scurlock who did a film called Maxxed Out. I wonder if they are worried enough to do something about the people who will lose their homes for medical debt. I am not holding my breath.

From the transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/11/cnnitm.01.html



Our Blue Dogs and New Dems fell for that? They wrote the letters because of that belief? And how many will lose their homes and cars because of illness and medical debt.

until they develop spines and stand up for themselves. They can't move to Dubai.

shovels boatloads of cash into their campaign coffers..

Gotta dance with the one that brung ya..

dancing with the one that brung ya, is an established practice.....:evilfrown:
:hi:

out, I believe. But, he's always gotten money from the Credit Card Companies. They were the biggest business in his state...

You should of seen Sen Carper fawning over the Credit Card industry execs last week when Citibank, MBNA, and Chase CEO's tesitfied about unfair practices. Both Carper and Sen Warner of VA (Capitol One in his district) were kissin butt.

of title claiming dems are worried--are they worried that so many are being forced into bankruptcy?

or are they sorried because CNN is talking about it?

or are they worried that they can't revisit the bill? and, I believe, Denny Hastert is no longer in congress.

sorry, but I have a really slow connection and can't always afford the time to go to links....

That's about all I have for now. The CNN moderator said they sort of fussed at the credit card guys who then promised to be good, very good.

So I guess they are concerned because it was a rotten thing to do and they may have consequences.

them voted for it!!!

http://www.opensecrets.org/payback/issue.asp?issueid=BA3&CongNo=109

All that's needed is for strict qualifications to come back too, and laws need to FORCE maximum interest rates.. double the prime should be the upper limit..
and interest should NOT be allowed to pile up the way they do now,.

ala Reagan wrecked the economy?

Yikes!

and there are many people USING cards who cannot afford to repay them, so when people are not able to GET credit, the people who "can" get it will KNOW going into it, just how expensive credit can be:(

...which, here in Washington state, are around 357%. And, no, that's not a typo. :crazy:

Predatory & sub-prime lenders are EVIL.. they are purveyors of misery

I have one card that has jumped to 18.99% for no good reason. I canceled it and told them to stuff it!

No more of this stupid bullshit how they ding you for being over limit and charge MORE money making it that much harder to get out of the hole. Then tacking interest payments onto that.

I have the letters somewhere...will find later and post them.

The only way to "revisit" the bill is through passing a new bill. While such a revision might pass the Democratic-controlled House, it would only pass the Senate (where, with Johnson incapacitiated, the margin is only 50-49 Democratic/Independent, with two of those Democrats/Independents -- Biden and Lieberman -- sure "no" votes) with at least some Republican crossover. And, even if it got that, there's no way they could muster the 2/3rds margin in each chamber to overturn a sure Bush veto.

This is yet another example of why, unless you have control of both Congress and the White House, it's a hell of a lot easier to block a bill from becoming law than passing another law to overturn it later. Or, as the old saying goes, "You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube." :shrug:

they got what they wanted but as Karma does it backfires

Yes 99%

Oh it was buried in the small print which was on screen for all of about 5 seconds. For some reason, the ad caught my eye so using my DVR, i reversed, froze and read it.

They would loan you $2,400 for 48 monthly payments of "only" $202 a month.

No credit checks! Almost everyone qualifies! Call Now!

I didnt even think that was legal, but there was the ad. I even got up close to the TV to make sure I was reading terms right, because I had a hard time believe it was real.

Worse, without any amendments concerning health, loss of job, etc.

Another punch in the face. Thanks Joe "MBNA" Biden and all the other enablers.

The new bankruptcy law is the best or worst example of the cash and carry congress, but it is still pretty generous compared to bankruptcy practices elsewhere. However those same places don't have as many medical and family failure related bankruptcies either.

I have seen very few cases of people who were "gaming" the bankruptcy system, but I do see alot of people who are just fucking stupid and they will be fucking stupid no matter how soft or brutal the bankruptcy system is.

"Lets see, I am going to graduate with a degree in Italian, I bet I will make $200,000 a year before I am thirty... I will pay down my VISA then..." Large numbers of those going bankrupt in their late 20's are still paying for booze they drank in college. If you want to look for a point of failure, kids in college trying to live like Paris Hilton on their credit cards is a good place to start.

The worst case of stupidity I ever saw was a gay man who seemed to be planning on dying from HIV before he was forty, and managed his finances around that assumption. At 45 and without HIV he was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no assets to speak of other than about $2000 worth of stereo equipment and furniture.

A compromise that would kick the asses of the above, maybe enslaving them in a Master Card call center would be great. While there has to be a real parachute available to those who through no fault of their own, or at the very least not complete irresponsibility found themselves in financial ruins. The cases I saw of those were heart breaking. Nothing like watching a former employer literally trying to drag out arbitration until after the fired employee had died of cancer to make you sick.

and all the other companies that bankrupt billions of dollars, default on union contracts and pensions, change their names, and reopen the next week. The only people who pay consequences in this country are working people and the funny thing is, we beat the hell out of each other over a few thousand dollars and let the fat cats walk all over us.

The corporate bankrupcy system is much too soft, but that doesn't mean stupid people should be able to jaunt into Chapter 7 and come out clean. Some judgement has to be made on the merit of the debt. There is a difference between $50,000 in medical debt and $50,000 worth of credit card debt made up on visits to South Coast Plaza, Ontario Mills and Cancun.

The corporate bankruptcy system in this country is a joke, to the point that Chapter 11 is practically a business plan in and of itself. Look at United Airlines who while lingering in bankruptcy protection was engaging in monopolist behavior. A "Corporate Death Penalty" is sorely needed, but because the bankruptcy system is so lucrative, change is impossible because the same forces that wanted changes to consumer bankruptcy wouldn't tollerate change to their regimen.

If it was made easier to force bankrupt corporations into Chapter 7, corporate bankruptcy would almost cease to exist, except in legitimate situations.

I'll worry about some poor schmuck's trip to Cancun. I will never understand people who get all in a twirl that someone has gotten some pittance they didn't get - when the real robbers are the ones who pit us against each other.

Just like people who complain about welfare....corporations get much more "welfare" than individuals.

Edited to add this was suppose to be in responce to post# 17 I believe. I don't know how it got to the original.

I was a middle aged woman with one child in college and one in high school. I had been a house wife for seventeen years with my working only during certain times in the marriage. But at the end of the marriage, I was no longer able to do manual labor and so went back to school to get training to do an office job. Wasn't able to get an office job, but did find a job that we lived off of. But it was necessary for me to move and set up a new residence for me and my son. My ex was not good at giving me any more than the government taken child support. He did not pay half the medical expenses and such as he was ordered. I had two credit cards, one for sears and the other for penney's. (both store cards) I got my son's glasses and tires and batteries for my car on my sears bill, and I bought him clothes from penney's. I tried to keep the cards paid down, but the interest kept climbing and penalties kept being put on. When I would call them, they would just give me a run around and make me believe that somehow I had earned them. (like me mailing them the payment and it not arriving until two weeks later, making it two days late.)

Okay, after a while I then unexpectedly lost the job. I was unemployed, ill and unable to find other employment. I continued to pay my bills from my unemployment. then when I got part time work, I continued to do without and pay the bills. For three years I did this and at the end of those three years my account with them was as high, if not higher than it had been three years before. Mind you, I had not charged anything during those three years. I came to the point that I could not afford to keep paying these bills and keep up with my others espenses. I quit paying. It is over seven years later and I am still being hounded to pay these cards off. I am disabled and unable to work, and I own nothing so they cannot take anything. My daughter worries about it and says we should make arrangements to try to pay them off, but I said no. I'm not going to give them another penny. Why?

Because I paid them three times what I owed them and they put it all toward interest (which they continually raised) and false penalties. And Because on the papers they send me with the amount they say I owe them there is in the small print a line that says that even if I pay the amount they have stated, they can charge me an undisclosed amount because of hidden fees and so on. In other words, I could send them the full amount they say I owe, and they could then say I still owe that much or more. Ah no, they will not get another cent unless they take my body and sell it for science.

A family and/or career breakdown is a textbook case for a complete discharge Chapter 7 bankruptcy,

I was told that credit cards were now exempt for bankruptcy cases. Also, since it has been over seven years I was told that they dropped the smaller debts after that amount of time, but now they sell them to a collection agency and they take it on as a new debt. I am an ostrich in this case, I just bury my head in the sand. I know it is the wrong thing to do, but there are only so many problems I can handle logically.

Credit Card debt can still be discharged through Chapter 7, although the bankruptcy reform measure is intended to force more debtors into Chapter 13 if they fail a means test, which isn't as harsh as it is made out to be. Especially if you live in a state with a high median income. Although in a state like Mississippi or West Virginia where the median income is extremely low it can be felt much more harshly, I can't think of anywhere someone in your situation would be forced into Chapter 13 by the means test.

The credit card company CAN file an adversary proceeding to take their claim outside of the bankruptcy, but the burdan of proof is very high and unless you were to say run up thousands on your card days before filing for bankruptcy they probably wouldn't even try claiming it. Bullshit adversary proceedings also really piss of the courts as do weak claims of fraud.

Some creditors, even after your discharge will still try to collect, alot of department stores are bad for this practice - but they can be ignored, they count on uninformed individuals to pay up with promises of restoring your credit or threats of all sorts, like seizing cars and what not.

Ironically, after your discharge you will start getting credit solicitations again, since you can't file again for a long time, and since your in trouble to begin with you have the potential for being a very profitable customer given the high interest rate they will feel justified in charging you and you likely need for the money.

It is something to seriously consider,

but I will not accept a credit card from anyone. If I cannot afford it, I don't buy it. It is that simple.

whatever they can. That said, corporations have proven they will nearly always do so.

BEFORE they give out that plastic. It USED to be that way. You had to have a VERIFIED minimum income and your credit limit was dependent upon that income. You had to ASK for a higher credit limit..

I have NO sympathy for banks who give credit cards to people who are jobless or making barely enough to keep the lights on.

What do they THINK these people are gonna do with those cards? use them sparingly?

Financing poverty with a credit card is a dangerous way to live :)

he just wasted every penny of it, the middle and upper-middle class bankruptcy case was usually very credit worthy until the wheels came off. I am not defending the banking industry, but there are alot of people who get in trouble on their own through stupidity and irresponsibility.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x383196

:hi:

I saved it and plan to start implementing the ones I haven't already.

yeah it made things tough -- but you learned how to save -- BEFORE -- you learned how to spend.

:)

Do you have any data at all to back that absurd statement up?

We went over this when the original corrupt crap was passed. The average bankruptcy is typified by medical or economic crisis or both or are divorced women unable to maintain their households.

"Abstract:
Every policy prescription, economic analysis, or news report about consumer bankruptcy rests on one or another unspoken image of the estimated 1.6 million families that will file in a single year. Data from the 2001 Consumer Bankruptcy Project permit a systematic analysis of the composition of those who file for personal bankruptcy, focusing on their educations, occupations and home ownership status. These attributes serve as a proxy for class identification. Based on these indicia, more than 90 percent of the families in bankruptcy qualify as middle class. These data are a powerful reminder that whatever else might be said about those in bankruptcy, these people are not some sub-group of Americans safely distanced from the middle class, but instead are co-workers, neighbors and families woven throughout the fabric of American society. "

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=480342

Average age: 38;
44% of filers are couples;
30% are women filing alone;
26% are men filing alone;
Slightly better educated than the general population;
Two out of three have lost a job;
Half have experienced a serious health problem;
Fewer than 9% have not suffered a job loss, medical event or divorce;
Highest bankruptcy rates: Tennessee, Utah, Georgia, Alabama.

http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/USbankstats.htm

Try the facts next time.

I never said the idiots were the majority, the above example is a pretty good composite - but there are still alot of people who will find themselves in financial failure no matter how harsh or soft the system is because they are irresponsible or stupid.

The ones I am talking about specifically were usually filing before 30, spent like crazy on credit while in university drastically over-estimating their earning potential upon graduation and it snow-balled from there. And even once they had graduated usually kept spending like crazy. "I have a university degree, I deserve this shit".

The ones I especially wanted to bitch slap were the ones who had gone through university on their parents dime and still wound up drowning in debt from their spending. Others still had managed to support their lifestyle with parental support, and finding it cut-off after university turned to VISA to try keeping it up. I loved it when a lawyer bumped into one of his frat buddies in the office, and after chatting for half an hour discovered he was visiting the office for his bankruptcy.

giving college students credit cards?

We all know how responsible many college kids are.....NOT.

from the perspective of the credit card companies, they run up massive balances and pay the minimum payments for years and usually don't go bankrupt ensuring them a profitable customer for years.

so they don't start out their adult lives with bad credit...and by "offering" credit to "kids" who are legal, the pesky parents don't even have to know until the kid tells them they are $10K in debt to Visa/Mastercard/Discover.

CC companies are shrewd..

mention would never have happened. Sometimes society has to protect the more "stupid, young, innocent or gullible" from themselves. And, easy credit with Credit card companies going after vulnerable teens to hook them causes pain and suffering to the kids and the relatives who have to bail them out if they are able...or they are stuck for decades paying off their youthful follies. But, there are others trying to get through college and govt. has cut loans....so they do what they can.

Credit Card Companies used to have restrictions on who could get them. Now folks get three a week in their mails offering them free money. What kind of system is that? It's set to prey upon people.

Which does not happen in this country. It doesn't matter if your cause is noble of irresponsible -- the ones not protected will get swept under the rug until either A) responsible lawmakers are put in place to cover the angles of the deserving or B) enough people suffer because of the sins of the few that something be done. Sadly it will probably be the latter.

the Credit Card companies squirming before Congress. I have to say, I worked for one as a systems consultant(in DE) and was appalled at their blatant disregard for the consumer.

I terminated my contract after 2 1/2 mos., the project I was hired to manage was not going to go anywhere, and was offered double my salary to stay on in the systems area, or an AVP position in the Customer area, I could not, in good conscience accept either position, although, the financial incentive was SO incredibly tempting. They were literally developing ways to insure bringing the consumer right up to the edge of bankruptcy, without pushing them over. That was before the new bankruptcy law went into effect.

C-SPAN showed the hearings and I could not believe the way these guys, just patently tried to dismiss the evil practices they were endorsing.

At one point during the hearings, after the witnesses had described their policies, they were asked when the policies had been implemented, one was 3 days prior to the hearings. These bigwigs get so full of themselves, they forgot they are screwing everyone, including the Congresses' own family members.

I would advice you all to view those hearings (I don't know how long C-SPAN keeps them up), to see justice finally coming to prevail. My only regret is that, it will probably only effect future issues and there will be no monetary relief for those already victimized by the credit card predators.

"voluntary" measures were the outcome, and promise to "play nice" or ELSE..

Reminded me of "Wait til your dad gets home"

When people with power (congress) berates (for the cameras) and then does nothing substantial, it makes me sad..

The bankers knew ahead of time that there would be no "real" action taken.. they just had to sit there like contrite children while Mom yelled at them.. and then later they had dessert and talked on the phone all night and Mom kissed them goodnight :)

while sorting papers, who was the Michigan, I believe, member whose mother had been so fully taken advantage of? She was not for letting it slide, that's for sure.

She is but one of 100, and the banks have buttered that bread quite nicely..and they know it..

and Claire and her siblings had to forceably take the cards away, and THEY are paying it off and the banks still sent Mom "checks"..

Claire & the sibs should have declared BK for Mom and made the companies EAT the losses..

That at least would have sent a message, but my guess is that Mom's not "poor" and had some assets that would have disqualified her from filing.. banks are not stupid..

Would go against everything they stand for, which is to take those "free" contributions. Biden is from Delaware, the home of all the Credit Corps, or at least most of them. I think some are in Iowa.Biden voted for the last bankruptcy bill, as did other Dems.

Their view of bipartisanship isn't about reaching out to the "middle" or "the other side" of the political spectrum.

Bipartisanship REALLY means for them balancing out what people want with what their corporate contributors want. What they do is sold as being for the former, but is in fact for the latter and trying to mask it as for the former. THAT is what "bipartisanship" really means to them!

The bankruptcy bill equally screws other moderates and more conservative average folk with the same potential financial disasters that sink them financially just as that happens with the rest of us. The true moderates and conservative members of the Democratic Party should demand that the DLC stop claiming to represent them, as it is an excuse that isn't born out by fact. If we can unite with them to force the DLC to admit this, then we can excommunicate from the party that truly are sellouts to corporate America!

I don't see any way to defend this. If it has been changed, clue me in.

"There is no provision to insure elderly people in financial trouble who seek bankruptcy could keep their homes. Republicans voted down a provision for it, and 3 Democrats from states with big credit card industries joined them."

Or this:

"It does not preserve existing bankruptcy protections for
individuals experiencing economic distress as caregivers to ill or disabled family members."

If this has been changed, let me kmow. I verified this with a congressman's aide before the vote. He had not been aware of it until then.

Or this:
"There is a lack of exemptions for the ill, the disabled, the elderly who might have large bills from ill health....nothing to protect their homes and cars.""

Have they changed this since Dems took congress? If they have let me know. Maybe they did not read the bill before they voted, or maybe they just did not care. After all very few read the NIE in entirety before the Iraq vote.

No one in America should lose their home because of illness or medical bills. Anyone who defends this is suspect to me.

of their "decline". The elders don't have to pay taxes on the money they made from the "sale" ..(I think the limit's 500K..may be more now)..

The grown "kids" probably could use the deduction (if the house is not paid off) for their taxes..

and if Mom & Pop are "renting" the house they live in (owned by children), it's not theirs to "lose", and when they pass away, the kids already "own" it.

Obviously this would only work if this were to be the final house for the elders. If they are still moving around, it would probably not be a great idea.:)

if within a certain time frame. I forget the legal term, but it is to keep parents about to go into nursing homes from turning their homes over.

I think I read 4 years for "property disposal".

for alleged "democrats"

One way you support the corporations, vote the other way and you support the people.

I don't think it's the least bit coincidental that Hillary Clinton sat this one out and was "absent". She didn't want to be put on the hook either way! She knew that voting on it was a no win situation with her financial supporters looking over her shoulder.

(not you, OP). There was much screaming down here in the fever swamp when that bankruptcy bill passed. Both of my Democratic(!) senators voted for it, to their everlasting shame.

I know that Kucinich voted right on the bankruptcy bill: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Dennis_Kucinich_Corporations.htm

And I know Edwards has some good to say about these issues: http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2006/10/16/145158/48

I know Hillary voted wrong on the bankruptcy bill, and that Biden was the ultimate douchebag on the bankruptcy bill (flipping to vote with the Repubs on the Democrats medical expense amendment).

I'm not sure about several of the other candidates' views on bankruptcy reform.

then you don't know much.

Because she didn't vote on it, she didn't vote because she was at the hospital with her husband, who was having heart surgury. She did release a statement prior to the vote indicating that she would have voted against the bill, if she'd been able to attend.

http://vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=83588&keyword=bankruptcy&phrase=&contain=

anyone who fell for this -- after all the history they'd already had with the RepubliCONS -- shouldn't be dog catcher, let alone Congressperson:

Well, I think the congressmen are still sort of stinging from this bait and switch with bankruptcy reform where they were told that if they passed the bill, about a year-and-a-half ago, that all Americans would get this dividend in the form of lower interest rates.

Same way they fell for the Iraq war spin. :hi:

are they worried that people disgruntled over the bankruptcy bill will.... vote for Republicans?

What is the point you are trying to make with these constant attack threads against "bluedogs and newdems"? That they're a bunch of assholes?

We already knew that. And we already knew that the bankruptcy bill sucks.

Unless you've got some kind of solution... some way to replace these people with more liberal representatives, I really don't understand your point. And since most of these people come from fairly conservative districts - districts that could easily go Republican - I really don't see how things are going to change any time soon.

The Bankruptcy Bill was put forward and passed in a Congress and White House completely controlled by the Republicans. If Democrats controlled things this would have never even come up for a vote. NOw we control the Congress - a control made possible in part because of the blue dogs and new dems. What is the point of your repeated bashing of them for something that happened in 2005? We can't change that. The best we can hope for is to amend the bill, or pass a new one after 2008, when we'll (hopefully) still control Congress and have a President who won't veto any changes.

Sometimes I wish as much was demanded of our Democrats as is demanded of me when I post something. You guys sure keep me honest.


Scurlock doesn't use the word "worried"...but it is the idea. From the OP

"SCURLOCK: Well, I think the congressmen are still sort of stinging from this bait and switch with bankruptcy reform where they were told that if they passed the bill, about a year-and-a-half ago, that all Americans would get this dividend in the form of lower interest rates. I think they said it was $500 or $600 we were all paying because people were gaming in the bankruptcy system. And nobody has gotten a dividend check yet and I don't think interest rates have come down. So and I think Congress is very angry about this. And you have new -- the Democrats in charge of the committees and oversight are they are really taking these guys to task."

Yes, it was a Republican congress...but they wrote the letters. Here are the letters BEGGING Hastert to please let them vote.

Here us the New Dems letter:

http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=2584
TNR is furious, and goes into detail about how bad this bill is.

"The Honorable J. Dennis Hastert
Speaker
U.S. House of Representatives
H-232, The Capitol
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Mr. Speaker:

We write to encourage you to bring bankruptcy reform legislation to the House floor as soon as the Senate completes its consideration of the bill. The New Democrat Coalition has backed common sense bankruptcy reform in the past and helped in passing the bankruptcy reform bill by overwhelming margins in the House of Representatives during the 108th Congress.

Over the last several years, we have worked to advance reasonable and balanced legislation that would require individuals who have the ability to repay their debts to do so, while preserving the important safety net of bankruptcy under Chapter 7 for those who truly need it. We believe that responsible bankruptcy reform embodies the New Democrat principle of personal responsibility, while at the same time adding important new consumer protections such as requiring enhanced credit card disclosure information and encouraging participation in consumer credit counseling.

It is our hope that the House of Representatives will consider this important piece of legislation in an expedited manner. We stand ready to work with you and our colleagues on both sides of the aisle to pass bankruptcy reform into law.

Sincerely,

Rep. Ellen O. Tauscher
Rep. Adam Smith
Rep. Ron Kind
Rep. Artur Davis
Rep. Carolyn McCarthy
Rep. John Larson
Rep. Stephanie Herseth
Rep. Dennis Moore
Rep. Mike McIntyre
Rep. Joe Crowley
Rep. Jay Israel
Rep. David Wu
Rep. Diane Hooley
Rep. Melissa Bean
Rep. Jim Davis
Rep. Harold E. Ford, Jr.
Rep. Ed Case
Rep. Jay Inslee
Rep. Shelley Berkeley
Rep. Gregory W. Meeks "

Here is the Blue Dogs' letter:

"It is in pdf format. It is much the same text as the letter from the New Dem Coalition, so I will just put the names and the ending.

http://www.abiworld.org/pdfs/bluedog.pdf

In closing, we encourage you to expedite consideration of this legislation in the House of
Representatives. We appreciate your attention to this matter and look forward to working with you to
ensure passage of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act as quickly as
possible.

Sincerely,

Jim Matheson
John Tanner
Jim Cooper
Allen Boyd
Dennis Cardoza
Lincoln Davis
Steve Israel
David Scott
Stephanie Herseth
Ed Case
Leonard Boswell
Ken Salazar
Ellen Tauscher
Marion Berry
Sanford Bishop
Bud Cramer
Collin Peterson
Jim Costa
Mike Thompson
Harold Ford, Jr
Dennis Moore
John Barrow
Mike Ross
Mike Michaud
Joe Baca
Jane Harman
Mike McIntye"

once again -

why bring this up, over and over?

what are you trying to accomplish here?

You don't even call for people in these districts to write their Congresspeople and complain. And if you can come up with a plan to replace these "blue dogs" and "new dems" with someone other than a Republican, and hopefully someone who is more progressive, I'd be glad to hear it.

Unless your plan is to post over and over on an anonymous internet message board about how much these people and this bill sucks, which isn't much of a plan, in my opinion.