Sorry to say this folks...but what the heck are you planning to do when

they STEAL yet another election?

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

And don't tell me this should be even this close with the amount of new registrations for the DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

In 2004 I knew beyond a doubt he would never get a second term.

The best-planned lays of mice and men...
:grr:

I knew in 1999 that bush would never be nominated! Now who's psychic?

:rofl:

First, in believing they would never vote for a complete dolt who knew as much about international affairs as a hamster, and secondly, thinking they would ever tolerate an election (or two) that was blatantly stolen.

I felt the same way.

The reaction from the last two elections should be instructive.

There is nothing for people to do.

don't forget the young people, who only use cell phones and they aren't being polled either?

Keep the faith.

to vote, and that their vote is not flipped.

That argument is getting really tired. The polling firms have done experiments with cell phone surveys and the results always come out very similar to the land-line surveys. I remember people trying to make the same argument in '04. That mysterious hidden young-people vote never materialized.

When you take all of the polls and analyze the trends they are extremely accurate.

when the Dem's have far more registered voters than the re pukes you are telling us that many of them will vote for Mc Same?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Since nobody knows how many of these new registrants will actually vote, I think it would be a huge mistake for anybody in the Obama campaign to count on them. I hate to say it because I'm one of them, but young people aren't a voting bloc that can be counted on to show up at the polls on election day. Most of these young kids are enticed to register at concerts or campus events that they're already attending. It's convenient for them to fill out the paperwork because they're already there. But getting them to go out of their way to find a polling place and wait in line on a Tuesday is another story completely.

If the votes are not counted or if they are turned away at the polls for some reason or the other.
All of our data comes from the same place as the vote count and it cannot be trusted when it is in the hands of one partisan party.

in primary after primary.

So your rationale is in error. If you want to go with actual evidence of behavior, you need to go the whole way. You left that critical piece about their voting out of your argument. Why? It is key.

Again, why did you do that?

Love your screen name, by the way.

and don't give me the BS about keeping any fucking faith.

Will not get me, or you... anywhere

If we strike, they send our jobs overseas. Problem solved and their labor costs go down.

And having there labor over seas is not much help if they cannot move there goods of sell them in this country..And not much commerce goes on when the government is too busy calling out the national gard to police the streets.

The Teamsters and Longshoremen are the last unions with any leverage.
THEY don't like that, so they let in the Mexican trucks so they can do it all
without Teamsters or Longshoremen if they want.

organize with labor at a continental level.

Yes, those mexican truckers are also union workers

Oh never mind

I've said it many a times... the solution to THAT problem is to force that side agreement of NAFTA to become effective... you know the one that spoke of living wages in the three counties

But the teamsters are not aware that there are Unions down there... actually more powerful than American labor at this point...

Oh never mind... I know walls hurt.

:banghead:

good, you (and I may add, I and a few others) are already thinking of this

Assuming worst case... here are the steps I foresee

National Strike... as long as it takes

March on Federal Buildings and massive marches that is

Blocking of economic means by blocking freeways, and other delivery systems

And it may go from there

Gallup has skewed their sample by that much since then.

I think if we had really lost 15% of the party, nationally, in a single month, that we would have noticed.

more proactive... what are you planning on doing? march to your local federal building, national strike, demand a vote count...WHAT

I'll stick with cynicism, it rarely leads me wrong.

My backup plan involves greener and safer pastures.

Is there something wrong with Rosetta Stone?

Rosetta Stone is good, if you are already in a language class and are getting a good grounding in grammar and vocabulary.

I've used it -- and it really helped me with my pronunciation -- and it was fun. But you will never learn the language from Rosetta Stone. In fact, if you read the fine print, they tell you that you should have a teacher, should be taking a course, and should have other study resources available.

So, it's good as an adjunct. Maybe for a beginning student it would be helpful in getting practice in some of the basics, but depending on the language, there are other adjuncts that are free or cheap. Rosetta Stone isn't cheap.

However, as I said, their speech recognition function and correction technology, did help me with some places where my pronunciation was a little sloppy.

Their exposure is the only thing that makes the prospect of a loss somewhat tolerable.

It's easier to make people buy things when you control their lives. Monopolies love fascist states and vice-versa.

It's why Palin's coverage is so huge right now. It's so inevitable that if falling on her up-do weren't bound to happen, they'd manufacture it. Not to worry, she'll be providing lots of fodder once away from her handlers.

for 30 to 40 years with a radical court should McCain win.

...yeah, change can happen, and Id probably see it before I'm old had I stayed (while being frustrated the entire time while steering my family through the muck).

I'm thinking about creating an organization to help Americans relocate up North, to facilitate the brain drain (by providing information, resources, help and articles regarding expatriation). Perhaps even creating a business here that can employ people, to ease the immigration process.

Other people have lived through fascist regimes. I intend to survive and cause trouble.

after that, it's back to normal.

in the meantime, if you're worried about them stealing the vote in your community, become an election monitor.

www.stealbackyourvote.org
www.novoterleftbehind.net

with respect........not "eaten" our own leaders, those who have lead before and desired to do so tomorrow, well, we would not be in any jeopardy today.

:popcorn: :evilgrin:

Sorry, nad, I'm afraid you may be eating your hat for this one. McCain took a hard right turn and it's going to
flip his apple cart. (How's that for mixing metaphor?)

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Rove had the numbers then too. They are going to be whipped.

how is a pollster supposed to weight the new registrations.

Since there have been no elections that set the new parameters all they have to go on is anecdotal evidence.


Ok lets say that you are the pollster and in the last election the Democratic Party held 40% of the electorate. There are media reports that indicate that they have registered 10 million new voters. What percent do you put in at this point -

From a pollsters point of view those registrations can't mean much until the people actualy go out to vote.


Under reporting of new Democratic voters is not necessarily the result of conspiracy (which would have to tie together multiple county workers, Secretary's of State, manufacturers of voting machines and pollsters - in various county's spread all across the country) - at this point it is simply a fact of their methodology - they cannot give substantial new weight to people who register.

The rate of new registrations who actually vote can vary widely. What is amazing about Obama's voter registration in Chicago is that he is considered to have had the highest actual turnout of newly registered voters primarily because he motivated registration for political purposes and did not use a bounty system to pay for registration.

But the fact is that until those newly registered Democrats actually go to the polls and vote they are only theoretical in nature and a dilemma for pollsters, although some make a greater effort to include them than others.

Actually at this point the numbers for New Mexico, Virginia, Ohio are still looking good and Indiana being only 2 points down after the Republican Convention bounce is very good. Florida is also looking good with Plouffe stating that they have 600,000 registered AA voters in Florida who did not vote in 2004 identified and motivated to vote in 2008

He called the primaries correctly months ahead of most everyone.

Primaries were proved to be fraudulent too.

Why am I having to tell you people these things! Are you really Democrats? Or Beltway types who don't mind going with the fraud to keep in step with the Republicans' right-wing agenda?

There is one very effective thing we could do, but for some strange reason it is "off the table."

We could demand that our leaders, our representatives, the politicians we give all of our time and money to, the people who are in a position to fight for our vote actually step up and fight for us.

But for some reason we are to be loyal to them first and foremost and above all, and that means asking nothing of them and holding them blameless, lest we create some negative thinking that would "help the Republicans." It is truly insane.

What is the point of supporting politicians who refuse to fight for us? What is the point of attacking anyone who dares to suggest that we should have any leverage over the politicians or that they should actually represent the people's interests?

All we ask of them is that they are "not Republicans" and we get angry with anyone who suggests we may want to stop with the adulation and servitude and start demanding anything else of them.

Historians or psychologists or someone in the future will have to sort this out - how the opposition to the right wing because so battered and traumatized, so weak and ineffective, so self-defeating, so complicit and cowardly. It is stunning to watch it happen yet again.

acting the way they are... truly the prisoner's dilemma indeed

drink, play music, participate as little as possible in the US economy.

A general strike that would force a recall of elected officials.
It worked in Poland and eastern block countries and it would work here.

and we need to start organizing for THAT

I spent my Saturday afternoon updating my election reform group action page on myspace, and then, I called Barack Obama's office and inquired if he has any plans to speak out on this issue. I had a long discussion with a member of the National Campaign Office and she is putting me in touch with a more senior person to discuss some of my ideas.

Beats bitching on a blog.

If you would like to call the campaign headquarters and ask that Obama take action, here's the number:

(866) 675-2008

by the way... that bitching gets people to think, perhaps even react

Thanks for your concern...

As to the Democratic party... I somehow doubt they are ready for this... serious.

Will send them another letter, will call them AGAIN... and try them to WAKE UP

Reality is that the first thing people need to do is CHECK what is their status and make sure THEY WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE

or Barack Obama or anyone else on the face of the planet. And yeah, I know damn well I'll be able to vote and that my will be counted. Nothing like a paper ballot and pencil.

You never seem to stop.

At least you are consistent.

What amazes me is the mods have not told her to just cease and desist with the childish behavior

I recently cleared out mine and forgot to rid myself of that particular stain as well. I suppose I should Thank her for the reminder.

As for your post nadine, I share your fears, and I to0 see all the signs of Deja Vu. The table is being set once again, and if we as a country ignore it, then we are going to end up with the permanent end to this country as we have known it.

I am on board for the General Strike, but to be honest with you, my partner has been spending a lot of time at www.escapeartist.com. While we remain conflicted about leaving, if she is not willing to stay, and we find we can make it work somewhere else, I plan to go with her.

It is not too late to take this country back, but the window is fast closing.

It has been said by many this is THE Election. It is do or die, and the country stands on the edge of a knife. This very well could determine the worst case scenario fate for our country.

As for those who continue to giggle and snicker, gobble their cheeseburgers, swill their beer, and pretend that nothing exists and ignore all of the signs that are CLEARLY present, I do not wish them ill will, but 1930's mentality will not serve one well at this point, to make an understatement.

Those Who Think They Are Free are in for a very rude awakening.

If they are even capable of being awakened at this point.

Quick To Judge, Quick To Anger
And Slow To Understand
Ignorance And Prejudice
And Fear Walk Hand In Hand

Rush- Witch Hunt

my sis in law told me the other day that they will go if these guys take it...

So I might have a way out... if need be

But the denial is amazing, even at this late hour

It seems that so many are so afraid to acknowledge what is CLEARLY in front of them, that it rivals the "Superior Indifference" of another people from 70 years ago.

I was speaking with a German friend of mine just the other day, and she told me that she was horrified at the eerie parallels between the attitudes of Americans then as to the Germans back then. She quipped that this time it seemed that not only those who have not learned from history are doomed to repeat it, but those who IGNORE it are doomed to the same fate.

To be honest, I never thought we would see denial at this level.

My question is simple.

Would people REALLY rather die for a lie or for the comfort of living in a false paradigm, rather than accept the Truth and fight for change, justice, and accountability?

I just don't understand it.

We've got nothing to fear...but fear itself?
Not pain, not failure, not fatal tragedy?
Not the faulty units in this mad machinery?
Not the broken contacts in emotional chemistry?

With an iron fist in a velvet glove
We are sheltered under the gun
In the glory game on the power train
Thy kingdom's will be done

And the things that we fear are a weapon to be held against us...

Rush- The Weapon

my dad... It is horrifying to them

When it is demanded of everyone that they FIRST pledge undying loyalty to the Democratic politicians, and then go out as though we represented them rather than them representing us, we have no leverage and no power.

We are to be unpaid public relations agents for them, we are not to see them as out representatives. We tell them that we will be loyal no matter what, and that we will bludgeon and silence any and all critics among us - they know they have us in the bag and do not need to listen to us.

We are short-circuiting democracy and rewarding cowardice and complicity with our approach.

But if it did, then I think it's time to take a cue from the Ukranians and the Venezuelans and make it clear once and for all that the people will not put up with this shit any longer. And if the Freeps try to disrupt it, knock their sorry fucking asses out. (Sorry to all the pacifists out there, but I have my limits, and the Bush Crime Family has pushed me about that far)

in fact it is called planning for the worst, and hoping for the best

Used to do it regularly as a disaster worker

It does wonders to be honest

how about that?

then call me back.

Then we are indeed doomed

election that they can steal.

Thank you

oh well

Bread and circuses.

Oh the irony, thanks.
:kick:

I mean, I totally understand the concern; after the last two elections, we'd all be foolish NOT to contemplate such a scenario. However, having a defeatist attitude and lamenting what might've been before it even happens is not going to solve a goddamn thing. This is still do-able and I know I for one intend to go out and volunteer and at least TRY to make this happen (as I still believe it will). I'm sorry, but I'll be damned if I let those fuckers beat us down like these clearly manipulated polls and the spin is designed to do. Can't you see it?? It's clearly a tactic to kill our morale, to get us to give up before the real fight even really begins. Don't let them have that kind of power over you!

and to be proactive about it is not defeatist

Doing the same we have done for the last three election cycles and expect it to be different is the definition of insanity

I guess this is a top down world.... being proactive is defeatist... trusting the system is the way to win

Alice can I go join you through the looking glass?

And looking back at your original post, I guess I should apologize for not being more clear. I'm talking about the attitude I'm seeing around some parts of the forum, acting as though we have already lost, that it's pretty much destined to be. And I'm saying I'm not going to let the GOP/Right Wing and all the assholes within it beat me down and get me thinking that, too. And hope others will follow suit. But if that's what your intentions are, then more power to you. I suppose I misunderstood your OP. :)

so it is time for us to get our game plan in place to fight back

I agree 100% - lamenting over the loss even before it happens puts negative vibes in the air - a perfect Republican thing to do.

Why worry about things that haven't happened yet. You can install fire escapes once the fire starts.

This is reality - stop trying to help us lose by making people feel like they can't win.

in 2000, 2002, 2004 and 2006?

Are you intending to deny it is happening and that we need to GET OUR PLANS SET RIGHT NOW FOR RESISTANCE or NOT?

If that sounds to you like defeatist, truly we are THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS... and yes in that case they will steal it once again

Don't expect the party to do it. YOU need to do it

Start by making sure YOU ARE registered to vote. I already did

Join local groups

Scream it from the rooftops... THEY ARE GETTING READY TO STEAL IT

READ naomi wolf... KNOWLEDGE and PLANNING is your best weapon right now

Keep up the bad work - you'll have your self-fulfilling prophesy.

and vote, and be ready discouraging them?

Oh wait, you want me to join you in putting my head in the sand?

You telling me that caging is not happening? For example?

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt

If you simply urged people to "make sure they are on the rolls", that's one thing, you went over the top here.

you have yet to give an answer beyond stop suppressing the vote

That is the DLC frame by the way.

So what are you planning to do?

Stop skirting the issue... or if you prefer avoid any thread that asks this very serious question, which given history is not an outlier.

I don't like the scare tactics.

but two elections have been stolen... do some readying on it. This is hardly scare tactics... given the history

Again, what is your plan?

some of us would like to know how far are people like YOU willing to do if the worst case happens? Stop skirting the issue

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You are overestimating the intelligence of the American people. Why steal what you can have for free with absurd pandering?

same place they were in 2000 and 2004

Things are in the crapper

We have had massive registrations as Dems and new voters

The pattern tells me yes, they are ready to do it again

Now the denial of many Muricans help them greatly, after all... it could not happen here

:sarcasm:

Do you think the typical American of "average" intelligence (and half are stupider than that) is smart enough to choose Barack Obama while running against "Maverick" John McCain?

I'm just measuring your level of faith. :)

Personally, I have absolutely no clue...I'm completely agnostic on this issue (as I am on most things in my life). To me, its a no-brainer, but people tend to not be able to understand the mindsets of people who are not like them (and I accept that phenomenon probably effects me too). Demagoguery, racism, xenophobia (which I tend think to be sometimes a subconscious, genetic trait which is a residual effect of our evolutionary path), anti-intellectualism, anti-"elitism", anti-liberalism are all trends (subtle and not) in American society that can cause effects we cannot calculate easily with math, polling, reasoning. Look, I'm talking about illogical factors here (things we cannot logically parse)...I have no idea how its going to effect the election. I know two things... 1) it would be mind-numbing if Barack Obama doesn't win (especially with the state of the nation). 2) The American people can at times be mind-numbingly stupid.

Just my two cents. I'm hoping for the best for you all but I'm prepared to accept the worse (probably more prepared than most of you there).

but any person looking at how many new voters and party switchers are out there, there is no way that this could be this close

And the pattern in the polls is the same as 2004, and even 2000... an election that should not be close, is becoming close

Something's wrong

It stinks, actually

As to the Murican people... nobody ever made a fortune betting on them... but... even they get it sooner or later

And has nothing to do with faith

And you know what sucks, really sucks....

You said even the people "get it sooner of later"....

What I think is bullshit about this is that Obama only stands a chance of getting elected when things are in the shit, in the worse of our society because they are grasping for help from consequences of their idiocy.

In the best of times, Obama probably wouldn't stand a shot in hell.

Hows that for irony, eh? Obama could probably only get elected in spite of how bad the country is. I don't think anyone could count on America picking this great candidate if they didn't direly need him.

Yeah, I guess thats my daily pissing on the American people material (but understand, I know how much more complicated it is, being that those people are a product of this sick society, and a product for a reason).

there is more... This country wasn't this way at all even 20 years ago.

It has gone this way in the last 10 or so

And take this from an immigrant to another... the place you moved to... will change under you

being repeated is indisputable, as will be the consequence, if people ever become foolish enough to listen to educated numbskulls like you.

And, I'm not kidding.

I have talked to them until I am blue in the face. I am sick of seeing them walk around like zombies like nothing is going wrong with our country.

limit

Ever since when i found out how much of liar Raygun was and how even then corporate media twisted things to help install him. (it's been going on longer than that, but that is just my point of reference)

Would you organize people with families (children, husbands, wives) to lose to fight in your revolution, to be your fodder? Would you organize military strife which strikes blindly, causing civilian casualties (they all do)? Seems like these warriors (and people their stray bullets kill) would be better off taking off, and actually enjoying life than being a forgotten martyr in a losing battle. Just a thought, thats all.


BTW, revolution isn't always romantic (but sometimes necessary). (The Wind that Shakes the Barley is a good movie about that theme). It is not always clean and perfect, nor easy to control. Lives are destroyed, and life and the enjoyment of such can be forever scarred.

A bunch of Bourgeois or upper-crust elitist who would rather of had taxes paid to them. :)

Yay, ok, they destroyed the tyrannical rule of the British (who are ever so terrible now, Id hate to see these people live under their rule so much longer). And they created a government with a constitution Id rather wipe my ass with (being that I much rather prefer the parliamentary style of government to their fuckn mess).

But look, thats not my point.


My point is people died. Innocents. Men, women and children. Some were used as fodder, and some never saw it coming. Was it ever about them? Was it simply about creating a new local ruling/upper class? Who knows...but what we do know is people died.

The question...would those that died of been happier going up to the Canadian territory and living a life that wasn't crushed in war? What if a random individual selfishly pursued life/happiness/progress over deadly ideals? Its not a black and white question. There is no answer per se.

But knowing what war is (bloodshed, death of innocents, atrocities, starvation, etc.), you must surely know its not that romantic to ask someone to subject themselves to that when they can simply leave and live and enjoy life with their families. Who would want to be that general, who ask people to do this? You?

And, what about the wars going on right now, for oil I might add, 1 million Iraqis dead, 1 million wounded, 5 million orphans, not to mention over 4,000 dead American soldiers. Countless wounded and mentally ill from this war for oil. I see no romance in any kind of war. BUT, I will gladly fight this fascist regime that has taken control of our country and ask others to do so, too.

And, I cannot believe you want to wipe your ass on the Constitution!

What the hell is wrong with you?

To suggest one should trade in a option of a life of happiness and progress (with their loved ones), be means of leaving, for being soon-to-be-forgotten cannon fodder.


Sorry, Im not too fired up about the Constitution. I tend to think it created an inferior governmental system.

You take advantage of living in a free society that it gives, but you would wipe your ass with it?
I don't have anything else to say to you, good-bye.

why I said above that perhaps he should concentrate in Canadian affairs

After all the PM Just dissolved Parliament and is calling for new elections

Thanks. :hi:

You never know what the future might hold for you! :)

This might make you smile:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080910.wcowent11/BNStory/politics/home

"But that's precisely why I'm loving this election. It reminds me why I'm so grateful to live here in Canada, where most of our disputes are small ones. In Canada, abortion is not a ballot question. Creationism is not taught in schools, teachers don't pack guns and politicians aren't required to publicly declare their personal relationship to God. Our politics are not defined by culture wars. Our deepest cultural divide is between people who like Starbucks and the ones who like Tim Hortons.

In Canada, the most popular woman in politics is Elizabeth May. Everyone can root for her because she has no power. In the U.S., the most popular woman is a charismatic pit bull who thinks the war in Iraq is guided by the hand of God. In Canada, the world will be okay no matter how we vote. In the U.S., Sarah Palin could wind up with her mitts on the nuclear codes."

Love it or leave it, Baby....Drill Baby Drrrriiiillllll!



America flipped a coin and gave me a life of poverty in an environment of discrimination and repression, with a statistical small chance of upward mobility. I got lucky and said so long. I hope others do also, before they are recruited to die in a bloody battle, fight a losing political struggle, or sit one more minute in a society ran by assholes that hate their very existence.

just as the US changed under mine

The difference is... I am willing to fight, perhaps even die, to return some rationality to this nation

Enjoy Canada

Ill move continuously into the most positive environment for my family if things get past my comfortability threshold. Its not he or she or it that I belong to, so I'm hardly bound to a geographical location. Considering such, who among us, me or you, truly has Liberty?

of patriots and tyrants from time to time... I wonder what fool wrote that!

So it is about YOU... fine... have a good life... in a global economy there is a limit on how far you can run

You may have to make a stand someday

than my quote from a living person Ive seen a few times. (which still means little) :)



And yes, it is about me. Its always about me, or you if I was you. Were all human, we all seek pleasure or the avoidance of pain. We just have different ways we think we should go about it. This is my way, which I am enjoying. I hope you enjoy yours.

and most progressives also speak of the WE, not the I.

Perhaps it is time you live your life o'er there... and let us do the fighting

You already left.

Oh and before you accuse me of being romantic about war....

Hubby still wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat... due to war

So do I... due to getting shot at many a times.

So don't even try to tell me how horrible war is. I've experienced it. I doubt you have.

The concept of a functional one does the same to me.

The concept of fighting against this government that is killing innocents probably gives you pleasure. The concept of me not paying any taxes that are diverted to the IMC, which pay for bullets and kill people, gives me pleasure (and I will no longer pay taxes or make contributions to the GDP anymore).

Your idea of a "community" is just a filter that alters your perception of real world stimuli, producing pleasure or pain differently than others. We are much the same, just viewing the world with different lenses (conceptual filters). We are both human.

Canada is a member of NATO

Canada has Military Personnel assigned to US Bases, Colorado Springs comes to mind

Canada BUYS guns, and other equipment, such as fighters, from McDonnell Douglas and OTHER US companies, such as Raytheon

You are still contributing to the IMC.

Happy to live in your delusion...

In fact, the country I came from has US Made and PRODUCED equipment in the inventory as well

the IMC is pretty global

Or more like 8%? And will the country I pay taxes to be pulling that trigger as often? Will my standard of living be supported (although not by neccessity) by ravaging the resources of third world countries to such a degree (and this relieves pain from guilt).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig_pergdp-expenditures-dollar-figure-per-gdp

Look at US vs Canada...lets not kid ourselves.

Community? What about a "community" is defined by a society's inability to care enough about its citizens that its fucks them with health care? You don't even have a basic right to live in the US if you cannot afford it. Thats not community. If you have a baby in the US with a heart defect you end up with a 1 million dollar bill (yes, I have a friend that got one), EVEN if you are insured (double insured in his case). I just talk to a woman who had a similar case a few days ago in Canada, and the only thing she had to worry about was the health of her child (not if it was making her a perpetual indentured servant). Thats pleasure for me, fucking pleasure.

Its all about me, and Im happy when Im in a place that promotes more happiness and less pain for more people. You may be happy fighting for that hypothetical, but I would rather have it within my grasp. The consequences of what -I- *want* produces a real community and happiness for all. Fighting for your hypothetical, if it can never come to be, only makes you happy. Everyone else still lives in the same shit hole or gets burned along the way.

hells bells, you believe Canada will NOT be affected by the fall of the American Empire?

Of if the US banking system collapses, (as indeed it is doing) you think Canada will not be affected?

And by the way every fight has yellow cowards and spring time patriots, you are one of them.

I am not going to tell you to stop posting here, but this is no longer your fight.

At least not for the moment.

It is ours... we will remake this country.

What would be funny is if you decided to come back after the hard work... would not shock me... nature of the spring time patriot indeed

Look here is a free hint for you... I moved to a very different country... when I became a citizen it was still a very different country. Nations change... in your lifetime... but they also only change when people are willing to work for it. You decided to leave this social contract for another, fine... that is your country now. Be concerned about that one... I am willing to bet that Canada will also change... and perhaps even become what you will not recognize. I know the US has...

And reality is... if things get as worst case scenario as some of us believe they may... good luck hiding and avoiding the bad times... because they will be pretty global. Oh and worst case, nations, yes even Canada, will radically change... and the US might or might not survive... but things are in for some interesting times. So where are you going to run next? Last time I checked Mars has not opened for immigration yet, neither has Luna.

By the way you despise this country. That is obvious. You know who remind me off? My uncle. He moved from Mexico many years ago... and to his last day the only thing he could say about it was how corrupt and horrible the place was... that is a very sad life, he led... never mind that all he had... his wealth, he created down there. I pitied him for years, and now I pity you. In your hate, and disdain, you cannot see anything good... about anything that happens here.

Oh and here is more, your contribution to the IMC is far more than just 8%...

I mean it. :)

or maybe "disappeared". I think you're an agent provocateur. If not, you do wonderful job of acting like one.

in fact, one is coming, I fear.

As to revolution... they are not always violent, see New Deal... heck... see Reagan's RIGHT WING revolution

When the system is broke, whereas mass reform cannot effectively happen, then revolution (violent or the threat thereof), is necessary.

No, what you mention were not true revolutions. They were systematic reforms. They were re-negotiations of the "social"-contract, which is a true sign the liberal system is working (even in the case of Reagan). When no renegotiation can happen, due to the unbending greed of the upper-class, or the unrealistic demands of the masses (not the case here), then something has to break.

what is more, this country has undergone many peaceful revolutions and two violent ones in its history

Perhaps it is due for a third one

But we have a revolution every thirty years or so

call them what you will, but they were just systematic reforms causing a re-negotiation of the social contract. Nothing more, nothing less. A function of a liberalistic system in itself.

A revolution occurs when this system cannot facilitate a re-negotiation, so the governing body must be destroyed and a new system must be constructed to facilitate the struggle between the classes. The term revolution is so often misused, but being so, so is the word "liberalism".

here from wiki

The term revolution has also been used to denote great changes outside the political sphere. Such revolutions are usually recognized as having transformed in society, culture, philosophy and technology much more than political systems; they are often known as social revolutions.<15> Some can be global, while others are limited to single countries. One of the classic examples of the usage of the word revolution in such context is the industrial revolution (note that such revolutions also fit the "slow revolution" definition of Tocqueville).<16>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution

Nonviolent revolution
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A nonviolent revolution is a revolution using mostly nonviolent protest against governments seen as entrenched and authoritarian to advocate democracy, liberalism or national independence in their nation. Nonviolent revolution is possible only if the controlling government does not take brutal measures against protesters; that is why most revolutions which happened in dictatorial regimes were bloody. Nonviolent revolutions began in the 20th century and have increasingly become more successful and more common, especially as Cold War political alliances which supported status quo governance waned.
Many leftist and socialist movements have hoped to mount a "peaceful revolution" by organizing enough strikers to completely paralyze the targeted government (or, often, all governments). With the state and corporate apparatus thus crippled, the workers would be able to re-organize society along radically different lines. This philosophy was or still is favored by large elements within the Socialist Party USA and the Industrial Workers of the World, and is connected to the concept of the general strike which would end capitalism forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution

The word has been broadened from the classic violent revolution to other things

For example, Scientific Revolution...

As well as the New Deal meets many of the requirements for a peaceful revolution since it did change the country in fundamental ways.

The 1960s have also been seen as a partial revolution

And I think we ought to give drastically different names to something that occurs within a system (according to the system), and something that breaks a dysfunctional system and creates a new one. Hell, we could just call it all "change" (and everything else that falls under that words, and lump it all together).

Id actually prefer a more in-depth academic approach to the matter to be honest than labeled definitions sharing the same word of two drastically different processes.

Id imagine you even have a much different definition for the term "liberalism" than I, which you can look up somewhere, though Id prefer to define it by a well-worded thesis. :)

and my definition of liberalism fits right there wiht classic liberalism of John Stuart Mill

That internal systematic change (by social/political/external forces) is not the same as the physical destruction of a system that produces a new and different system.

Call it what you will, but I think the two differ drastically. And no, we probably do not agree on anything else. :)

as well as linguists

As one of them said... language changes... and revolution started to be used for more than just violent, extra-consitutional means to change a government over thirty years ago... at least in academia

Is internal systematic change the same concept as the destruction of a system that creates a new and different system?

A yes or no is sufficient

correct.

But it is ONE of at least five definitions for the term

the military going over to the side of the people. Maybe at the highest levels.

Maybe that would be a more productive us of your energy also.

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and ironically we are in the same boat, as we are doing something about it.

OK

Look up.

but I am counting on a Obama 50 state sweep to win my bet with a Republican.

dissipates?

Or to the point of an Overdose?

but until then...

I'll do my bit from the sidelines. Until Nov 4th, if I got free time then Obama and other Democratic Party members have it.

Mark.

Their are a lot of people in this country who believe "saving babies" is more important than democracy. God's work, you know.

And Karl Rove is well connected with these people.

McCain has no chance in a fair election, and Obama has no chance in a fixed one.

The only hope is that Obama refuses to concede, and the country rallies around him. That will be tough, because the M$M will brand him a traitor, if they cover him at all.

People said he is a fighter, he has 17,000 lawyers, he has promised that every vote will be counted.

What is different now?

And Kerry was not Gore, and that was going to make all the difference in the world.

I don't blame the candidates, by the way. I blame us. That is what I mean when I ask what has changed.

to do what we should be doing

taking to the streets should be a given... and not require anybody to put a call on the teeevee. forget the radio...

that is part of the problem.

Why I like to ask this every so often

The first step is... admitting we have a problem

Too many people are convinced that "thinking positive" somehow magically produces results, or is itself the desired result, and so shut their ears to anything "negative." Since it is reality itself that is what they find disturbing, avoiding anything "negative" means avoiding reality.

I know I can wear orange, but I may be a little old for street protests, sadly. But I can do what the Chileans did and bang pots & pans.

By economic boycott, I mean cancel newspaper & cable subscriptions, return credit cards and either (a) cancel wireless contract, switching to lefty wireless company or (2) cancel landline phone account and switch phone to wireless or Vonage. Generally, the idea is to hurt the media in the pocketbook.

it is in the Constitution... winner takes all

Now if we manage to change this to a proportional representation system... then I am betting on about five major parties

This requires a constitutional ammendment

As we have the last two times.

Unless you're posting from jail or the graveyard, don't tell me otherwise.

what they have not done since 1968

Silly me, I know

deprives you of many of your wanderlust reactions.

I have a stake in this because of his present, and especially his future, thanks to the cretins running our globalist American corporation and their penchant for creating international conflict.

I'm not going anywhere. I will fight, fight until the dying of the light. Which, judging by the looks of it, may not be so far off.

alas I can't... so I am stuck in the fight with you

Enough do it.. they won't be able to

But the question is how much pain are we willing to suffer to reestablish the rule of law?

we have degenerated into an idiocracy.

the majority of your fellow citizens are held in thrall by and venerate complete fucking imbeciles.

the child-like "bully bluster" of the republican party mobilizes the great majority of america, the country of racists, cowards, and morons.

But that is just me

and national strikes require time to get organized.

:hi:

All over this country people will not be able to vote due to Foreclosures. This affects mostly financially strapped and poor people in poor neighborhoods.

Seriously, if you are going to go apocalyptic with your question, I'm entitled to go apocalyptic with an answer. You might as well ask, "What will you do when the n****** come out of the ghetto to rape your daughter and kill you?" It's the same kind of question.

ON EDIT: You've fallen for it, you lamer. You've fallen for the fear and paralysis that Bush and Company wanted. You're about ready to slash your wrists, aren't you? WUSS.

now if you go out and kill a lot of people, which you may mean as a bad joke, I can tell you a civil war may not be out of the realm of possibility.

Now here is what I have done you tweet

Make sure I am registered to vote. After being removed ONCE already... I check every time

Tell my neighbors they need to do likewise

Make sure that if they are not, they are registered to vote

You know minor things like that.

And I am also READY to take action when and if they steal it.

I am not counting on them NOT trying

Perhaps you are thinking that they haven't already in two national presidential elections. THere is plenty of evidence to the contrary

And unlike your racial slur and image... used for fear... I have armed myself with KNOWLEDGE the perfect remedy for fear

You asked what will we do when we lose. You are going to go out, after the election is lost, and register to vote? That would be typical for the standard Democratic wimp; deciding to close the barn door after the horse has left and the back half of the barn is on fire.

The "racist" business, by the way, belongs to my sister, who wanted me to look up a nerve gas formula to kill the "N*****s" whom she was sure were going to come to kill her. And YOU are in the same category. You have been played like a harp from Hell, and you're happy to be playing that tune.

You have already determined that Obama will lose. Your wishes, and your desire for that loss, will help it come true. Thanks a lot, Failure Coach.

Most DU members have friends and family who hate the US Constitution ...yet these DU members STILL embrace them, and treat them as equals with respect.

Untin Dems STOP respect the people who want our country destroyed, we will never heal the nation.

IF THIS DOESN'T WORK

THERE'S THIS OPTION

EITHER WAY, IT WON'T BE VERY GOOD FOR BUSINESS

and there are days I have my doubts, read this thread my friend (bad pun I know), but you will see what i mean

There's still plenty of denial even at this late hour

CALL CONGRIS NOW

you can lead a horse to water...

IF IS A BROKEN YOU MUST FIXING INSTEAD OF TYPING ON INNERTUBE. IT A TERRIBLE.

J

Seriously, how pathetic do the candidates have to be before they can't steal one. I'm hoping there will be a revolution if they win.

to all who just assumed that the Democratic Party, and elected Democrats, would act aggressively to prevent election theft.

the answer is with each of us. We are not going to get anywhere waiting for leaders

I wrote letters. I made phone calls. I told people. I made it a regular part of every political and/or election related conversation.

What else can I do?

no prodding, no leaders telling us to do that. We just need to march on federal buildings... en masse

We also need to be willing to bring this economy to a screeching halt by engaging in a national strike the likes of which have not been seen since the early 1950s

I'm not holding my breath.

I don't think this is going to happen... but this is what needs to happen

And we cannot expect the party to tell us to do it... they won't. After all, no political party has ever told its followers to do this in the history of the United States... alas this is what many of the followers wait for.

is the scandal, controversy, and corruption involved in the early work. Without mentioning organizations and names, and thus getting your thread locked, this played out at DU in '03 - '05, as well as in the real world.

We lost a champion working hard on this issue; lost him in a terrible way that flamed the situation further. Of course, I think you know this. :(

If we had a clean, non-partisan, non-corrupt national organization, these kinds of things would be more likely to be successful.

Are BBV and BH still "the" central force? Are they more trustworthy now than they were then? Can there be a central organization that unifies the cause?

or organizations would get this locked says a lot, doesn't it?

As is the two political parties have heads in sand... one of them is obvious, the other is less... when I reach for the tinfoil

I am ready to join with people in taking direct action. I'm just looking for a unifying focus.

I'm now living happliy in the UK.

become a UK citizen and fight the fight there

Be aware though, the fall of the American empire will have global repercussions

Labour may be a mess right now but IMO ANYTHING is better than another bloody Tory government. If you're in an area where the Lib Dems are #2 and the Tories are #1, work with them. Idealistically I'm nearest Lib Dems but if I lived in an area where Labour were #2 and the Tories were #1 and the Lib Dems were a distant 3rd, I'd vote Labour (and hold my nose doing so).

Mark.

strangely just like the democratic party here, and partly for the same structural reasons

2006 we had no probs but that was because it was being plastered all over the net so much that even the M$M covered it...