GM is criminal. EV1 in 1996 did 160 miles between charges

Are they crazy? The Volt will get 40 miles. They are not serious about building electric cars. We should stop buying gm cars and let the company fold. I am angry.

for this long, why has not some foreign car maker gone ahead and created a car that would take the entire world by storm? The only explanation I can come up with is that the technology must be tied up in patents controlled by GM. Is that the case?

The technology is tied up in patents controlled by Texaco. They bought the controller/amplifier technology that made the EV1 viable.

And just before it's demise, the EV1 was pushing a 300 mile range.

Also, how is the EV1 controller/amplifier technology different than the other units available on the market today?

It's all covered in the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?" The film also looks at the Japanese carmaker question.

I'll see if I can find a link, but I suspect by the time I get back with it someone else will have done the job for me :)

If it was GM, why would they sell off technology that stood to make them billions around the world? I can see why an oil company wouldn't like it - but why would a car comapny care?

and one that has many speculating that there was a confidential payoff by the oil industry to carmakers NOT to produce a viable EV.

Who Killed the Electric Car? is on DVD and worth a rent.

onedit: Stan Ovshinsky created the NiMH battery and his company, Ovonics Inc., sold the patent to GM. After thinking he had made a lasting contribution to the environment and one that might permanently change transportation, GM turned around and sold his patent to an oil company.

Why?

They completely omit certain facts which put the discontinuation of the EV1 in context: such as the fact that they cost twice as much to build as they sold for, and that the car was based on completely new parts which required a support infrastructure entirely apart from what the rest of GM used.

The EV1 was never sold, it was only leased.

Maybe you should see the movie before you form an opinion on it. :rofl:

GM likes to sell parts and hire mechanics.

which is encumbered by Chevron/Texaco patents.

As Li-Ion drops in price the EV market will explode, and Texaco can go to hell.

...except with respect to charge control, I don't think. Same controller could be adapted to other battery technologies as well. Beyond that function, you are converting DC to AC and then driving the amp that drives the motor. There are other AC motor amplifier controllers out there as evidenced by the private EV hobby community.

And that is what is scarified without an internal combustion engine.

Don

Ever try to run an air conditioner or an electric heater off of battery power before?

The older air cooled Volkswagens had a heater too. It would bring the temperature inside the car from 10 below Ø to about 9 below Ø. Kind of worthless.

How well did the EV1 do in 10 below Ø? Do you have any figures on this?

Don

while driving uphill in a summer snowstorm, towing a trailer, your might not find the car suited to your purposes. :eyes:

Why be an a-hole?

Does it make you feel better?

Don

It is not an everything car, for everyone. Nobody said it was.

How many days was it 10 below in Rockford last year? I bet it didn't crack 10 below once.

Considering the advances in batteries and electric motors, 40 miles per charge seems like a middle-school science fair project.

From a EV1 site: http://www.ev1.pair.com/charge_across_america/charge_html/faqs.html


HOW FAR CAN YOU DRIVE ON A CHARGE?

I have two driving techniques for my personal EV1: "economy mode" which has given me up to 80 miles range of freeway driving at 65-70 mph, and a "let's see what this thing can do" mode around town that yields a range of 45-50 miles. This has proven to be more than satisfactory for my needs. With over a year and 13,500+ miles on the odometer, I have yet to "run out of juice." The large number of public charging stations coming on line allow drivers to extend their range. As of April 1998, over 300 public chargers are available in southern California at many locations such as Ralphs grocery stores, Costco, shopping malls, airports, theatres, and even gasoline service stations, with more being added. An 80% recharge can be obtained in 45 minutes.

The new 50kW Fast Charger takes 10 minutes to charge to 80%. PUBLIC CHARGING IS FREE.
GM has announced that a new type of lead acid battery will be optionally available on the 1999 Generation-2 EV1 at a lower lease price than NiMH. The new batteries offer a substantial range increase over the original Delco "Delphi" batteries, however the NiMH battery option will offer considerably more range than the new lead acid batteries. While the driving range of the new lead acid batteries will be fewer miles per charge than NiMH, they will not have thermal issues that affect NiMH charging in hot weather. Because of their special cooling needs, NiMH batteries cannot be retrofitted into Gen1 EV1's, but the new lead acid batteries are fully compatible and will be installed in Gen 1 EV1's as the original Delco battery stocks becomes depleted.

HOW FAST WILL IT GO?
Top speed is electronically governed to 80 mph, ostensibly for safety reasons. However, the EV1 is capable of much more. A test car without the governor has done 183 mph. It's QUICK! 0-30 in 3 seconds, 0-60 in 8 seconds.

:shrug:

I think it looks good.

The Volt is just butt-ugly.

I'm tired of the Glenda-the-Good-Witch cars (they look like bubbles or something).

I'd drive the most butt-ugly vehicle on the planet if it did the job it was supposed to do dependably, economically, and had a minimal environmental impact.

My 10 year old likes things based on how they look. I have higher standards then that.

GM was founded as a joint-venture in the mid-1920s of Standard Oil and DuPont Chemical Company, financed by Rockefeller Chase-First National City (now Citicorp)- Chemical banks. They've been effectively controlled by the same oil-finance syndicate ever since, but now the Saudis have a near parity partnership.

Time to Bust the Trusts, again.

Which is exactly what's happened. Honda will selling plug-in hybrids this year - Toyota, as well, I believe.

A link would be helpful. The Volt will be the first plug in hybrid available and it's not coming out until next year. So I'm very interested in seeing these plug-ins that you speak of.

Looks like Big Sal put a fish in the Honda Chairman's bed, or something.

The geewhiz factor will huge for the volt.

People will line up to buy it. At least for awhile.

Early adopters will put up with the crap that GM calls engineering, but what will be fatal is when GM tries to move from a boutique project car, to a massively produced car that people buy who are not interested in "geewhiz", but just reliable transportation.

Know why diesel cars are largely not sold in North America? because GM diesels cars of the 70's and 80's were HORRID. GM ruined the market here for diesels for the past 2 decades.

Hopefully, GM won't do for electric only, what they did for diesel.

The later generations got alot more further. The EV1 is a small two seater car that isn't going to appeal to alot of people, plus it just looks butt ugly.

which effectively doubled the car's range.

I have a two-seater EV that I use for about 80% of my driving. Costs about 4¢/mile. IMO a lot of two-car families would find that appealing.

Or a parts list? I'm compiling info. Eventually, when I clear my personal landscape of some of my gas-powered toys I will start to gather parts for an AC conversion on some chassis.

It's a DC conversion though, range about 40 miles, top speed 80mph.

I really want to do an AC conversion because of the many opportunities I have around here for regenerative braking. Yes it will cost more and be more complex, but my commute is just over 40 miles a day and I wanna take any opportunity I can get to make that on one charge.

if you have the resources. I've been toying with the idea of upgrading, but IMO it won't be long before an inexpensive EV with 60+ mile range is commercially available.

My wife has a longish commute but she recharges at work - plugs it in at her parking structure. Kinda like free gas.

This is not an ugly car, and it's a 4 seater:



Now, these are ugly cars (someone "customized" them):

Haven't seen one in platinum, but it's a good color. The URL points to a site that claims it's a shot of a 4-door version.

but I don't see anything about the 4-door version. Interested, because I thought GM had effectively destroyed all the EV1s except for a very few showcase models which had the drivetrains removed.

cleanmpg.com/photos/data/548/GM_EV1_4-seat_series_hybrid.jpg - anyway, someone thinks there was a gold 4-door made. Don't know whether it was crushed, along with the rest.

Of course, you can keep the generator filled and get as much mileage as you want out of it, but the electric range is 40 miles.

There is no such thing as free energy, so to point out that the battery needs to be recharged is not a surprise.

The volt recharges its battery by either plugging in or via the on-board generator.

That's the range you can get without the assistance of the gas powered generator.

Its BETWEEN CHARGES. Not range.

There is nothing to big and important that GM cannot find a way to mess it up.

I say this the son of a GM retiree, the brother of a current employee, myself as engineering consultant to GM.

GM has a culture of mediocrity and intimidation that starts from executive level and is imposed on every employee on the way down the chain.

Volt will probably be the end of GM.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'm not denigrating labor. Look I've worked on the assembly line myself. I did as an 89 day college employee in 1986 (we weren't allowed to work the 90th day as then we would be entitled to join the union and GM wouldn't have that). My father worked on the assembly for 30 years. My brother still does. At least until his plant closes next year.

I'm denigrating GM management. As I've said, the horrid GM culture flows from the executive suites down. Its a culture of mediocrity and intimidation. If you have a problem with me denigrating mediocre, greedy executives, then we'll just agree to disagree.

And my post count? You think that post count actually has relevance to something other than how many posts I've made?

But if you've nothing to say meaningful to add. thats cool too.

Of course I question your motives. :hi:

"But if you've nothing to say meaningful to add. thats cool."

Maybe you should rack up 40 posts before trying to set the rules of debate, hmmm? :rofl:

Whatever. US Automakers Uber Alles. :eyes:

American workers work for GM. It's a bit of a symbiotic relationship.

and I thought the conservative position was pro-management, anti-labor? :shrug:

"and I thought the conservative position was pro-management, anti-labor?"

The conservative position is pro laissez-faire capitalism. Listen to a John McCain speech on the economy.

make crappy, unresponsive products which are harmful to the environment? Bah.

You are the one who is anti-labor by attempting to prop up dying technology and a dying management ethic. Let them die.

Also, you are aware of the 2 hundred billion dollar bailout of the financial industry that was hastily approved this week, right?

Funny, there was no debate about the "competitiveness" of the financial industry--they demanded cash, they got it (with the Democrats' full blessing, I might add.)

In theory, I disagree with that as well - although there is a difference.

Lax federal regulation had a lot to do with the financial crisis, so the government at least partially responsible. And as far as I know there is no shady accounting responsible for GM's woes - just poor management decisions. Shall the taxpayer be responsible for bailing out every company that can't figure out how to turn a profit?

Internal consistency check? :shrug:

Taking responsibility for shitty oversight = OK

Socialism would be an improvement. Let's nationalize GM...if they want my taxpayer money I want some profit sharing. I want in on some exec decisions.

No one-way street here.

lol

Hmmm.... :shrug:

from upper management.

I understand where you're coming from, but please don't interpret all criticism of the GM leadership as an attack on the workers who build the cars. They aren't the ones who got GM into the mess that it is in today, and I doubt that very many of the folks who did make the bad decisions have union membership.

:silly:

Why don't you just go ahead and accuse me of raising taxes and hating America, lol.

Are you saying I can't criticize GM ever without wanting to destroy US manufacturers?

That's silly.

That's like saying I can't criticize the Chimperor without hurting America.

"That's like saying I can't criticize the Chimperor without hurting America."

If you said you were boycotting the USA because of W, it would indeed hurt American workers. You may or may not feel this is justified, but at least own up to it. :hi:

Talk about making stuff up. John McCain, is that you out thar? lol

I can buy American cars and still think GM management is dumb as hell.

"When did I say I'd boycott GM?"

About the same time I said that you "can't criticize the Chimperor". :silly:

I personally think you agree with me more than you disagree. :hi:

Is blaming GM management for its problems a conservative viewpoint? I had no idea.

I'm not quit sure what to make regarding your comments about new members. Maybe it has something to do with an impending election or something ya think? In any event, I'm not them. I'm me.

Look, I've lurked here for years and I know what you are trying to imply. The election is getting hot an I thought I would create and account and throw in my 2 cents here and there. If the board is full then perhaps they should remove the signup option or something.

Frankly, I think trying to make a judgment on someones political opinions based on how many times they have clicked "post", is a rather specious.

Shrug. Go ahead and review my posts. If you think I don't fit here, then click alert and call in the big dogs.

It helps us to understand the posts of R-W lurkers.

"Is my POV really conservative?" Probably :evilgrin:


Don't sweat it-- it was claimed I was in bed with McCain because I support workers worldwide. There seems to be a rather truculent, xenophobia that runs rampant occasionally, but on closer inspection I think some people are simply invested (financially? emotionally? ultra-nationalism?) into particular sectors of American industry and perceive objective critiques/opinions simply as attacks and respond in kind.

People love to attack Sacred Cows, citing trendy cynicism or critical thought as the justification for it. But we also tend to forget that each one of us has our own pocketful of Sacred Cows, that we defend with a passion reserved for religious zealots.

In other words, I think we expect a certain behavior from other people towards us, that we ourselves do not practice towards them.

Stick around DU and keep posting! :hi:

Some posters are so blinded by their personal jihad that they repeatedly attack and misrepresent the posts of anyone who doesn't completely support their agenda.
They build a straw man, claim it's yours and then jump up and down on top of it screaming "Victory!"

Welcome to DU, you're free to disagree at will. :hi:

Just because they made an electric car does not mean that they could make a profit on in.

:boring:

Of course GM is criminal, this is DU, Toyota and Honda can do no wrong.

What utter flame inducing bullshit.

The Labor forums get as much attention as a pile of dogshit. People on DU would rather talk about Sarah Pigling's hair, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

The anti-union propaganda that big business has perpetuated for the last 100 years has permeated even the left.

I can separate the complete mismanagement of GM from the workers who build the cars.

I might also add that every car I have ever owned has been GM except my most recent one.

The Made in America Jeep Patriot.

PS My father was a union electrician for 40 years.

Instead of making Hummers.

The original EV1 only got about 60 miles to a charge, and it did NOT have an internal generator to extend its range the way the Volt does. Plus, the EV1 cost twice as much as the Volt to build.

You're making a completely false comparison between the two.

Volt is projected (PRO-JEC-TED for those of you who believe everything you read) to achieve over 640 miles range on it's tank of fuel AFTER the first 40 miles on the charge when the generator kicks in to run the motors. Gas and ethanol are a given, but diesel is on the horizon too. And then we have the prospect of the photovoltaic roof panels to change it while you are at work.

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

already stopped buying Gm for non union japenese vehicles.

This does not compute.

I've been asking that same question to all the Asian car owners. People scream about companies fucking over union workers and then they buy non union goods.:shrug:

those of you who claim Union membership should be Ashamed for thinking you are pro union by buying ANY non-Domestic brand. Go try and buy a GM car in Japan or Korea. At least we compete in Europe. But the Asian brands have been sticking it to Labor for 40 years.

If you're pro ubion, by a union made car.

End of story.

I don't know the entire story of the EV1. What I've read does make GM sound incredibly suspicious. However, we need two things going forward: One, a return to a profitable GM (and Ford and Chrysler) that will provide more good paying jobs for more Americans*; two, more automotive choices to move us away from foreign oil and lessen the carbon footprint that comes from driving.

I'll admit, I thought the Volt that we saw a couple months ago was a good looking car. The most recent press release, not so much. But, that's my opinion. I hope GM sells as many of these as they can build because it's good for our country and good for our planet.



*I'm assuming the Volt will be produced in one of GM's US factories.

Electric only range = 40 miles. However, there is a 12 US gallon fuel tank, that powers the on-board range extender which keeps the batteries charged. If you take that into account, the Volt has a range of 640 miles.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-auto-show-its-here-gms-plug-in-hybrid-is-the-chevy-v/

I own a Prius, and frankly think that the Volt concept is better. I hope it does well - I'd love to have an American car as a viable buying option for a change.

What is exciting about the Volt is that the 100% electrical drivetrain will be easier to adapt to a purely electric powered vehicle if and when the battery technology comes around.

I saw a chassis photo of the Volt, and its mechanicals (aside from the generator) look a lot like a 1:1 RC car. :wow: This should ultimately lead to cheaper construction and easier adaptation to AWD configurations.

The 640 mile range was what GM initially stated. I just found this:

The new goal is to give the Volt a range of 360 miles without any help from the initial charge, so that would imply a tank of maybe eight or so gallons - still plenty for most drivers most days in a PHEV like this.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/08/chevy-volts-gas-tank-gets-downsized/

Even with a 300 mile drop in range, it is a reasonable range. Works for me, anyway.

This January of 08!

Maximum" Bob Lutz is a man who always speaks his mind, no matter how outlandish, which is why it should be no surprise the General Motors honcho says global warming "is a total crock of sh*t."
Lutz made that crack during a private lunch with reporters in Virginia, according to D Magazine, and followed it up by saying, "I'm a skeptic, not a denier. Having said that, my opinion doesn't matter."

–Hybrid cars like those made by Toyota “make no economic sense,” because their price will never come down, and diesel autos like those touted by Chrysler are also uneconomic. The only place in Europe that diesel-driven cars are big, he said, is where diesel fuel is half the cost of regular gasoline; in most places there, the costs are comparable and diesel has little market penetration.

http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2008/01/30/gms-lutz-on... /

he wasn't convinced of global warming either

I found him arrogant and also I listed their salaries and retirements they get in that thread.
You can even see the interview with colbert.



Link here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4028103&mesg_id=4028103

It looks a bit less...um, phallic. :p

As I've stated in past threads about it, I actually KNEW an EV-1 owner, rode in the vehicle, and have the experience of many discussions with someone who lived with his for nearly a year. I DON'T have to rely on propogandic videos and webpages for my information. In a nutshell, the EV-1 was the Commodore Computer of the automotive world. It was a neat toy that appealed to auto geeks and electric car buffs, but it was utterly impractical for normal users. The EV-1, like the Commodore, still has fans, but the concept of the home computer and electric car weren't ready for prime time when these products were released.

Here are some of the issues. It didn't like hills and a grade over 4% could kill the battery in only a few miles. It's heat pump for a/c & heat worked like crap and the windows would fog over whenever humidity hit a certain point (defroster? It didn't have one). It only had TWO SEATS. It had a trunk so narrow that it could only hold a single full sized bag, or a couple of grocery bags. It had nasty road noise problems. It was only released in WARM states because its batteries weren't rated for operation in freezing temperatures (even California lesees were warned to keep them out of areas that froze, because subfreezing temps could drain the batteries faster than the charger could refill them). It didn't have an ignition key, but instead had a keypad requiring a security code to start...and the location of that keypad (low on the console behind the shifter) required that lefties enter the code with their right hand only. The 220v charger couldn't be plugged in, but had to be professionally installed by a licensed electrician (apartment dwellers and those without garages were SOL...the 110 volt plugin charger took almost 20 hours to recharge from empty). Rated ranges all assumed that you were driving around with the windows up, AC & heat off, no lights, no radio, and no wind. In the real world, 30-45 miles per charge on flat land in normal urban traffic was more realistic. It required special ultra smooth, hard tires to reduce rolling resistance and improve range. Those tires were expensive, had extremely poor traction on wet surfaces (my friend spun his several times), and transmitted the bumps from every bit of gravel on the road into the passenger compartment, giving it all the ride quality of a skateboard. That was especially insulting considering the poor weight ratios of the car and the fact that it had a propensity to understeer horribly anyway.

I can go on, but you get the point. Just as there are still people who still wax nostalgic about the good old days of Commodores and BBS's, there are people who will swear that the EV-1 was a great car that didn't get a chance. The technology just wasn't mature, and most people would have lost interest after the first test drive. As a technology geek, I'd have liked to own one just to play around with it, but it wasn't a realistic option for most of the car buyers in this country.

about the Toyota RAV4:

"In 2002, when all of the electric cars were being rounded up and crushed (See "Who Killed the Electric Car") Toyota decided to end its program by quietly selling the last 328 of their cars to the public. Our family was lucky enough to buy three of these cars, which was the only time a modern EV was ever offered for sale, even if secretly. Our three cars are now pushing 80,000, 92,000 and 110,000 . After driving these cars it is easy to understand why manufacturers don't want to sell them. No lube, filters, oil changes. No spark plugs, tune-ups, engine repairs or smog checks. No catalytic converter: thousand of parts needed for a gasoline car are not required in an EV. They need brakes after about 50,000 miles ; they only require tires, windshield wipers and wiper fluid.

Our family has driven about 600,000 miles without using any gas or oil. "

http://ev1.org/msg/38.htm

Of course it didn't need to have any of those things done, because those are all gas-engine maintenance duties. As an electric vehicle it had its OWN set of maintenance requirements. Many of the major electrical connectors had galvanic corrosion problems and required periodic cleaning. The lead batteries required maintenance between replacements. Suspension and drivetrain parts still needed lubrication just like a gas car. The all electric braking system required periodic readjustment to keep braking force consistent. Shocks wore out faster than gas cars because of the funny weight balance.

The EV-1 required different maintenance than a gas car, but it was hardly maintenance free.

which had half the mileage and lead-acid batteries. The rev2 version with NiMH batteries had virtually no battery maintenance whatsoever (other than every 750 cycles you'd have to buy new ones).

Compare that to:

Oil changes/filters
Coolant
Air filters
Tune-ups
Fuel injectors
Fuel filters
Spark plugs
Starters
Alternators
Carburetors
Belts
Muffler
Timing...

One day soon, GM will pine for the day they could charge you for all that maintenance. Do you actually pay for "lubricating the suspension" on your car? Any links to a galvanic corrosion problem or a "funny" weight balance? ONE EV1 owner who had the car long enough to wear out the shocks?

The car was so efficient that they would've lost billions on replacement parts for engines. Big oil would've lost billions. The damn thing wouldn't've benefited anyone except the consumer and the environment. And what the hell do people and environment have to do with freedom and the economy and the glory that is the market?

to criticism of his position. So typical of anti-Union agents here. And also a typical Freeper tactic, throw shit at the wall and let it stick or fall off, but run like a rabid dog and not defend your position.


And DU members fall for it every time.