I saw Hank Paulson on MTP, I am WAYYYYYYY scared!!!

1) He refused to say how much this thing could cost, basically said, we don't know how to value the portfolios, therefore, I can't know!!!

2) He never once mentioned why WE, the tax payers, have to pay for this!!!

3) In his mind, noone can be held accountable!

4) He doesn't know or can't say what we are buying with this money!

5) He never said where we are going to get this money from to pay for this, or how long it will take to pay it back!

6) Most dangerously, HE REALLY REAYLLY REALLY wants us to do this NOW. He said we have no time!!!

Overall, this reminds me of the following:

How they sold the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
It reminds me of how they got the Patriot Act passed.
It reminds me of how they created the Homeland Security Dept.
It reminds me of how they passed the nasty/ugly Medicare bill (part D).

We know these bastards, Paulson, Bush...etc. will not be here 3 months from now, why should we let them do this TO US?

A little thinking here people.

EDIT: If that's still not clear enough, maybe this'll clarify: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x195954

The people are about to take the streets - they have finally been jolted out of their slumber.

Dems better say no.

about to do before doing it. These knee jerk reactions have never helped, and you've cited more than enough examples.

Don't trust this at all...

and I will be reading it very soon... well as soon as it arrives.

I was sitting out on my deck yesterday afternoon reading that very scary book....

And it is exactly what she describes, it should be required reading for all. As all this has been happening I keep saying to myself "she warned us."

with the naked eye. They are both bought and sold (with a very few exceptions on the Dem side)by Big Bidness. This crisis did not spring out of nowhere, and Dems, including Big Dog, were as gung-ho as the Rs on the de-regulation, wage-suppression, safety-net shredding, "Free" trade, globalization, privitazion, and worship the rich mentality that made it possible.

but how do I know that you'll finish what you started?

Who IS this prick? I don't care if he was CEO of Goldman Sachs, WE DIDN'T ELECT HIM, and he has no business dictating his terms as if we were his hostages. It's OUR money you are proposing to give away to your elite Chinese friends and your CEO buds. FUCK this shit!

I just had an epiphany. He's kidnapped the Global Economy and is holding it hostage, and we are being ordered to pay the ransom. Not only us, but our children, their children, their children, etc. So we will meet him in an undesignated location, on his terms, and give him the suitcase. He gets off scott-free, and two weeks later, the Global Economy will be found dead in a ditch.

will make zillions of dollars over the next few years!

Wouldn't surprise me if GW Bush himself ended up in on one of those soon to be established funds!!!

Brilliant scheme!

why others don't get it, I will never understand....

I mean, in a way, I'm serious. Though all of us here were against the war, it's so fascinating to watch repubicans and talking heads freak out about a this bailout to keep the economy from collapsing, when those people DID NOTHING to stop the Iraq War and we've spent a hell of a lot more in money and lives.

Do you find that ironic?

It's worth more than the Bush dollar, that's for sure.

We haven't even begun to address the cost of the Iraq fiasco!
Paulson, in a sane democracy, would be in jail now.

eom

if we don't do something. However, I don't want to "give" anything to anyone. I want a return on this money sometime in the future.

Why should I believe one fucking word of anything a pug has to say? They are such liars!

:hi:

I don't believe anything that comes out of this White House.

The rest of the country shrugged when California was fucked out of over $12 billion. Welcome to the club.

I think that deserves its own post and should be used repeatedly when referring to Paulson's plan, etc.

Maybe email it to Rachel Maddow, too.

ETA: typo

Paulson serves us. We don't like secrets.

Make your case, pal, to the people.

sh*t, BUT, I do care a lot about all the Americans who would lose big time in their 401K accts, the value of their homes, and lots of job loss when businesses fail!

I understand all of you saying "let 'em croak, but we don't want to go down with them!

it's the most blatant "big government" entitlement in history
it's the most blatant "wealth redistribution" in history
it's the most blatant un-American act in history

deja vu they're having -- AND I PRAY THEY'RE HAVING IT -- and not cave and give them a blank check AGAIN.

Oy.

Well, Fuck them! :puke:

1. There is no way anyone could know how much this would cost. The entire problem is that no one knows the value of these complicated instruments. The idea would be we would buy them now (at a price we don't know yet, because no one knows the value, and would be set in negotiations/reverse auctions), and then sell them back later (at an unknown price, hopefully higher). We could even make a profit (or keep losses to a minimum). But no one would be able to tell you how much any recovery package would cost.

2. The U.S. government is the only entity that has enough cash to buy all of these securities.

3. That might or might not be true, but I couldn't tell one way or another from MTP. Regardless, as far as accountability goes, he is not the only voice.

4. We know what we think he is going to buy: illiquid mortgage bundled into securities that no one knows the value of. But if the economy tanks further, he may have to buy more (and he wouldn't know now what he might have to buy in the future).

5. We would get the money the same way we get money to pay for everything else we don't have money for: borrowing.

6. Maybe he realizes how close we are to a 1930s era collapse of our economy if we don't act this week.

I agree with you that this is pretty frightening, especially given the Bush admin's past track record. Maybe this won't work, or is a bad idea. But that shouldn't stop Congress from negotiating with the administration to get something done THIS WEEK. Because the only thing we know at this point is that not acting will result in much, much more severe consequences (on the level that most of us have never seen in our lifetimes).

"Because the only thing we know at this point is that not acting will result in much, much more severe consequences (on the level that most of us have never seen in our lifetimes). "

Very true, but this would actually be a preferable circumstance to propping up a broken financial system.

The longer that the inevitable collapse is delayed, the more severe the ultimate consequences. If the tech bubble of 2000 had been allowed to implode of its own accord, rather than being somewhat mitigated (and repeated, of course) by a subsequent housing bubble that was not-so-subtly encouraged by the Fed, then we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in today. Add to that the deregulation that Republicans pushed through Congress, especially the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act which was designed to prevent these greedy bastards from ever doing something like this again, and you get this unbelievably bad situation in which we are presently embroiled.

It's best if they let the market utterly collapse. Doing anything else at this point is only going to make things even worse when the final collapse occurs.

at stake, the lives of billions in the balance, it is better to do something stupid and probably harmful than to do nothing.

That has collateral and it's right here. The way this is set up, we don't even get to own the rights to the note. THAT'S BULL.

700 big ones, we get the goods!

To me, that and full oversight by Congress are the big deal.

Later in January we can re-regulate and reform the whole system.

The "funny money" stuff is bankers' play games amongst themselves, let them take the hit for it... the derivatives.

Credit card debt etc. is unsecured - too bad, they're screwed. And the Chinese are just as responsible for choosing the right investments as anybody else. Whoever wanted the return loses the gamble. If it's unpayable it's probably because it was overpriced to begin with.

We need to draw some lines here.

And take over banks and put them into the RTC. They can still function while they're being cleaned up, just as the S&L's did. There's zero reason for this.

And if it's sheer blackmail. Fuck 'em. We'll figure out our own way through it. But this would be worse than giving in to terrorists. It's the same principle.

NO! And hell no!

So that is a little encouraging. Not that I'm hopeful, Chimpy will be out soon stomping his foot about Congress not acting immediately.

And said nothing about MORE regulation, simply that "antiquated" legislation "needs to be changed to reflect today's financial realities", which is exactly the rhetoric of Phil Gramm's chainsaw to the regulation laissez-faire capitalism of 10 years ago.

"So pre-9/15", you might say

We'll fix it in the mix... :puke: