Ok WHAT NOW? Most are against this bailout

so lets assume worst case and the boy that cried wolf is now facing an actual wolf ... won't get into the debate of what the data tells us

Just that we don't get a bailout... nobody gets a thing.

Many of you are complaining, are seething in anger, and want something to be done.

Not peaking on the web... WHAT IS YOUR PLAN?

Just being angry is not enough

Just going let it collapse is not enough.

Just saying this is a boston tea party moment is not enough.

Those folks had a plan.

So what are you intending to do?

I'm not even gong to go into the effects of this... I just want to know what the hell DO YOU WANT?

Once you realize what you want... proceed to the next step... ORGANIZE

Otherwise... you'll continue to spin wheels for ever.

;)

gotta give this a :kick: and a nom

:hi:

we want change... (I can actually list what I want... and have in the past) but I suspect many don't really know what they want.

People want jobs, heath care, housing, they want their votes to be counted, they want the environment cleaned up and protected, they want safe and affordable food, they want housing, they want justice, they want equal rights, they want consumer protection, they want public education.

What do you mean "I suspect many don't really know what they want?" There are hundreds of posts here everyday with people talking passionately and knowledgeably about what is needed.

And who cares what any one of us "wants" as individuals anyway? It is what the people - all of us - need that is important.

Tired of empty rethoric

congressional district. While I plan to vote for Obama, I will be voting Peace and Freedom Party for Congress this November. Harmon is the consummate corporatist and might as well be a Repuke.

I want to see Democratic Socialism long term but I am willing to settle for an incremental approach.

We are propping back up the same failed approach that is already taking us all down and that benefits only the few.

I want YOUR SOLUTIONS to this

and do you know what that is? I haven't really been following it today, but I'm sure it's had numerous incarnations.

and I have posted in the past plenty of my proposals... and shocker, sent them over to Congress as well... in fact, will send another one tonight, to both committees

And I am not the one going I am angry, let me seethe, but have no solutions or waiting for a leader to lead me... I am my leader.

but still the US public has no idea what the plan will be in the end. I'm not angry but I am interested.... I'd really like to have a clue what the hell they are voting for or against.

so I suspect we will have the draft legislation up soon

And just checked what they have up is last nights

Letting it collapse puts us all on a level playing field again. But then, I'm already poor and hungry.

what are YOUR IDEAS to rebuild this, since it will be needed

quite empty by the way

And I could hardly give a damn. Let it collapse, start all over. I'll be doing what I've been doing, worrying about my next meal.

thank you...

after all since you are screwed, let others be screwed.

hardly a plan

Thanks for playing though

By the way... when do you do when not even the soup kitchens have enough bread to feed children? Millions died of starvation in the Great Depression.... you sure you want to see your loved ones die this way?

Just a thought.

You assume alot. You assume no one will starve unless we print more money. You assume my loved ones will starve because we don't know how to feed ourselves. And you're welcome for me playing.

time the economy froze... that is 1929-34

That damn history

And I like my soapbox very well, thank you

And you have yet to answer what your solution is

So, yes, thanks for playing

rinse and repeat

morally I cannot accept that

She starts a thread that is inflammatory, accusatory, and incoherent.

You post your thoughts, then she derides you for not agreeing with her.

Then you repeat the process ad nauseam.

You're not supposed to have an opinion other than "OH PLEASE, GO ON, YOU'RE SO FASCINATING!"

You act as if we're all on call to congress, and they're expecting us to send in ideas.

There is going to be a deal. When Obama gets behind it, then we get in line behind him. End of story.

thankfully folks in other eras didn't believe that.

CIVICS 101... you are a participant in a democracy... perhaps the US does not deserve that anymore

All your hand wringing over the bailout and what it contains is talk you should have at coffee with a friend, because it's largely idle chatter that will not affect anything other than your mood and those who have to listen to you.

I don't have to like everything our politicians do, and often don't. We have our nominee, and in spite of the bailout, I will support our party in the election. The time for our dealing with what we don't like about the bailout is the day after the election, and not until.

If you answer that as American then I suggest you read Jefferson and others on the duty of the citizen... they wrote long papers on the subject. Of course Ben Franklin's answer as to what we had is apropo here. A Republic Madame, if you choose to keep it.

That duty includes questioning leaders... and chiefly DOING YOUR JOB in a participatory democracy. This goes well beyond voting in an election

That includes READYING bills, especially critical bills like this one.

This includes CALLING your representatives and making your views known

That includes organizing in groups inside and outside parties to petition your government

If your answer is that you are first a democrat... then you have surrendered your duties as a citizen

This is not a spectator sport, but rather a contact sport... and you need to get your hands dirty

oh and placing your trust in any one individual may lead to some disapointment... lessons of history

By the way... in case you wonder, over the last two weeks I have sent the Obama Campaign and Senatorial office policy positions, not as a party leader but a Senator in the US Senate. That is my job as a citizen... not to place HOPE on any one individual. Oh and ONCE he gets elected... he will continue to get those policy possitions from me.

Hardly do I think that I matter that much as an individual... oh correct that... over the course of other disasters in recent years that engagement has allowed me to advise those in government. But see, I don't seat on my hands and take my DUTIES as a citizen quite seriously. I guess it comes with not being born here, but having taken an oath... And I will continue to do MY DUTY as a citizen... try it sometime.

In closing, I don't think you want me to quote those same founders on what they thought about factions and how they were a poison to the body politic... sadly the last eight years prove they were right in their fears.

Please, continue. Endlessly amusing.

and can put something similar into effect.

How do you plan to influence others?

Hope is not a plan

(And for the record circumstances will force radical changes... and Obama is better equipped at multiple levels to do that)

I am well aware that I have no influence.

... what part of that do you folks not get?

so what do you want to do after the collapse to rebuild society?

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

This is the time to plan.

Empty rethoric of it is going to collapse, let it anyway is empty rethoric

.... is to get over the idea that throwing billions more dollars at the perpetrators of this fraud is going to help anything.

After we see what ACTUALLY HAPPENS, then we can address the problems that exist. Trying to fix things ahead of time is like going to war over non-existent nukes or gutting the constitution for nothing.

Not again.

We will most likely have Obama running things, most likely with a Dem house AND senate. We can start by RE_REGULATING the financial industry WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

Most likely, there will be some public works projects in our future, to provide jobs building infrastructure. I'm willing to borrow/print for that, I'm not willing to borrow/print to give the asshole bankers more breathing room.

The whole lot of them should be in jail, and if I were Obama I would appoint an AG that would AGGRESSIVELY find charges that apply and bring these thieves to justice. The best way to make sure this doesn't happen again is to mete out some actual justice, prison time, for the perps.


Want more?

now how about organizing mass protests? get people into the streets... you know the drill

Oh and I will add one caveat though... do not put all your trust in the dems... last time around it took more than just the dems to get it fixed...

It took marches, it took organizing, it took beating heads.

how do we finance this? (WPA would be great at this point by the way)

Will not go into more details or others may peak into this.

:-)

and we can use the bodies of CEOs and hedge fund pirates as fodder for land fill. :)

"or others may peak into this?" I guess I'm out of the loop on this. Are DUers taking LSD or something? :D

lots of it.

So starting this from ground zero... what people want and what are they willing to do to get it?

So far running short on ideas

We need to rebuild our infrastructure, and do it on a environmentally friendly foundation.

especially the let it crash sub group.

LOL Sorry, I couldn't resist.

is that a plan?

and show little regard for what we think. And I mean those in both parties.

you know why the New Deal Happened? People, yes you and me.. rather our equivalents, had a plan.. and implemented it

So they will not listen to me is a cop out in a democracy... or perhaps you want to surrender that too

By the way, I am not THAT old.

little history...

And it took three years to formulate

Only reason the radical right went for it was the marches and the voting success of third parties

Read marches... labor hit the streets, and mobilized the homeless and newly homeless, among others

And yes some people died

I am not that old either... but have read on the period extensively... there was a point when we could organize mass strikes... that is where OUR power is

And I don't see large numbers of giddy dancers.

but people have completely been atomized and feel powerless.

Now time to post one with solutions... perhaps a bulb will go up...

It didn't light any bulbs and nothing went off or up.

:-)

Damn medium

:hug:

Probably a combination of something like what the Finance Committees want to do and something like Thom Hartmann has proposed - Securities Turnover Excise Tax (STET)

Then we need to drown the Republican Party in the bathtub

that said, that is a nice policy solution

Thank you

This thread I am resisting the need to post some of this since I am asking people what they want to do

than 700b

we will need... yep 1T is a low number, but that is a different story

I am just using the current number in the actual proposed bill

...which make consumer products to be sold worldwide.

(It is more complex than just building factories but going into reindustrializing the country goes a long way... as it did in the 1930s)

Where they are paying something like $1.00/hr? How is that going to result in products we can sell worldwide?

The factories all closed because this Grand Global Race To the Bottom has gotten there. The bottom is now centered somewhere between India and China. The bottom that is in fact the center of gravity of this great new world economic odor has moved westward over the last 100 years from Europe to America and now to China. They are now running the show, economically, and soon enough we will figure out we can't afford to run our stupidly huge army anymore, and even that will slip through our fingers.

for almost all our history we had tariffs

Now will simplify this since they work a little more complex

If I produce a widget in CHina and it costs me 10 cents, and the same widget costs 1 dollar in the US... the tariffs make for the difference

This makes it not worth while to look for ahem greener pastures

But that is way beyond "just build us some factories".

on what needs to be done, and chiefly get them out of just emotion

Then we can refine things and the next step is getting organized

Tariffs have gotten a bad name in economic circles because they were often used to help special interests. But now we have a situation where tariffs are now necessary to protect the global economy from a race to the bottom while the 3rd World industrializes. If all countries were a about the the same level economically tariffs would not be needed, but all countries are not the same.

Of what this all means. I do not believe anything I've read...mostly because I don't understand it, and I've learned that whatever Bush wants should automatically be tossed out the window. I don't understand what bailing out these companies means to 'me'. I don't understand what a collapse means to 'me'. I can't scream about anything because first I don't know what the choices are, and second I don't know what the consequences are.

as to bush... what he wants has not been in the game for a good week or so.

Now even if you don't understand it, call congress... let them know you are concerned.

Oh and I did post a thread with solutions as well... including things that you too can do, including organizing... we will need quite a bit of community to make it through the hard times to come. Regardless how bad they become

last week. Since then I've only become more confused. I really feel uncomfortable advocating something I know nothing about that could hurt millions of people.

why I said the next step here is to organize

That is what has happened in every other period of US History

We are so atomized that people feel helpless

Thank you though... and we will try to translate legalese to english... takes a while at times... and a dicitionary

Temporary nationalize distressed financial institutions and purge the corrupt "Old-Boys Club" from the boardrooms.

Put regulations in place so CEOs don't get $XX million dollar "golden parachutes" and "signing bonuses".

Restore the strict regulations from the New Deal.

Ban adjustable-rate loans.

turn all outstanding adjustable-rate mortgages into low-interest fixed-rate 30-year mortgages.

Expand funding Section 8 housing and rental assistance massively.

Ban turning home loans into "mortgage-backed securities."

Trust-bust J.P.Morgan-Chase (and other "too big to fail" financial institutions) into 3 or more separate companies. If you are "too big to fail" you are too big to exist.

Raise taxes on corporations, capital gains, and the incomes of the rich.

Start up public works projects, like the WPA and CCC of the New Deal.

Invest massively in Green technologies, creating the seeds of a new and strong economy.

Enact a living wage indexed to inflation.

Play economic hardball guided by the principles of fair trade. Tell countries to improve wages and working conditions or we will slap tariffs on them.

replace minimum wage in the Warner Act for living wage, with COLA (Cost of Living adjustment)

Trust bust, Sherman Antitrust

I like it by the way

Include STEs in trading

Tarrifs... and thank you

Front loading would be even better, taxing all security and stock transaction's to make any bailout pay for itself. Reasonable import / export fees are also necessary ; the lack of them serves nobody but the bloated overlord multinationals that are pitting one nation against the other.

Ain't going to happen, but it is exactly what should be done.

1. Let the free market work. The 'failing' companies are being bought based on their value, as is their crappy debt.
2. Increase regulation on US lenders. *All* lenders, from the payday-loan folks to the big banks and credit companies, where the maximum they can charge will be 3 times the inflation rate.

I know my plan will totally scrap and decimate entire industries built upon the moral crime of usury.

That's kind of the point.

I personally don't have an answer, but I like the ideas I've read, and we need to be asking this very question.

The Bad:
1. Businesses will not be able to get a x% of short term lending they get now.
2. Lending Reduction leads to business cash tightening.
3. Which Leads to lay offs and down sizing.
4. Which leads to more foreclosures.
5. Which leads to more homeless and family up-sizing.

The Good:
1. The inflationary pain will be short term but more severe than without the bailout.
2. The bailout will open market liquidity and promote basic growth and keep businesses running that require short term lending.
3. The value of your 401 k will level quicker and at a potentially higher base.

The Ugly:

1. Everything above is a pure theoretical gamble on our current understanding.
2. The potential for new downward market information and the associated risk could be high. We have no clue.
3. Everyone thinks this sucks, even the people in congress who are voting for this, they are doing so by holding their noses.


IMO this is congress putting country first by doing something while the house is on fire and everyone else is saying water or dust on that one? Hmmmm. At least they're throwing.

Bush has looted the treasury and now ordinary people will pay an unbelievable price.

There are several alternatives to IMF policies.

If you gamble you lose once in a while.. I don't see anyone bailing me out when I lose at the crap table.. I see alot of people lose at the crap table and game still goes on.. The only solution is NOT to bail out these gamblers and let the dogs lie.. Lets see what really happens..

Voila. Jobs, energy, prosperity. O8)

Do you really think this 700 million wet kiss for Wall Street thieves is going to solve all the problems??

Bullshit! Housing prices are still goin down, they are nowhere near where they should be for a nation of fast food workers and store clerks!

The 700 million bails out the rich republicans bastards that created the mess in the first place!

The damn government is robbing the poor and soon to be extinct middle class to save the rich!

And its all gonna crash anyway! Fuckin welfare for the rich is all this bailout is!