A $700 billion gift to predatory lenders will NOT solve the "liquidity" problem:

for one thing, there is no "liquidity" problem. That's pure horseshit used to scare nervous nellies. There are private financial profit centers whose predatory lending practices and trading on such practices has, surprise, taken them out. Buh bye, cya, don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

The problem is foreclosure crisis we've been experiencing since 2002 and before. Who was losing their homes then? Mostly black and latino home owners that nobody but nobody gave a shit about. Now it's spreading like wildfire (6 million foreclosures this year is a figure I heard) and the mortgage holders are folding. Fine. Bail out the home owners and address the problem, not the effect.

Using our tax dollars to bail out Goldman Sachs -- whose execs don't even PAY taxes -- is totally counterproductive and will accomplish NOTHING. Not only is it unfair and unjust, it's totally futile.

Sorry Bushketeers, the people were right. Suck it up. :hi:

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and there's a LOT more than Goldman Sachs or predatory at stake.

Congress has to act before the credit situation spirals out of control, taking thousands of businesses and millions of people down the tank with it.

The global credit market's already frozen up- and pople are still denying that there's a critical problem?

Congress isn't taking anybody down the tank, Bush's grotesquely mismanaged piracy is, and forking over hundreds of billions to some fat slobs who will offshore it the second it hits their accounts isn't going to save anybody, either.

As Obama has explained that's NOT what the plan's going to do.

What it seems like sometimes is that people hate Wall Street so much that they're willing to destroy the America's economy (and even their own livelihoods) just to take down a small number of "fat cats."

so I'm going to give him a pass in the interests of seeing him get elected. But for the record, it's a heist of astonishing proportions, even for these psychopaths.

I disagree with Obama on this but we're trying to win an election and I trust Obama to do the right thing politically. Unfortunately that may not be the right thing for the country or for the economy in the short term but he needs to win so we can make some progress in the long term.

:thumbsup:

I have yet to hear a credible argument, from anybody in any media, to give these crooks a single red cent. :mad:

This is a new one that has been all over the place the last 24 hours. Who is writing these?

"You just want to take down the fat cats."

Your argument is anti-Labor, because the same argument could be used against Labor in any dispute, against the people to justify any sort on inequality or exploitation, and very definitely was used against the early Labor organizers. It was also used against Abolitionists. It is surprising to see it used by any Democrat under any circumstances and for any purpose. It does not even feature a fig leaf that could possibly let it pass as an argument that Democrats should seriously consider.

The argument is that the bosses must be given whatever they want, or we will all lose our jobs, and that the only reason people would fight for justice is because they don't like rich people or want to hurt them.

This argument has been a staple for reactionary anti-Labor people for decades. There is of course no way to refute it. No one can prove that they don't want to take down fat cats, can they? But whether people want to take down fat cats or not, that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

"Disagree with the boss, or interfere with his wishes in any way, and you will lose your job!" Right. That is the problem.

You and I agree on the injustice and inequality in society, on the class divisions and power imbalance. We agree that the wealthy and powerful few have life and death control over the working people, that the market rules, and that power is concentrated in such a way that puts working people at a terrible disadvantage. We are recommending opposite responses to that undeniable reality though.

There are supporters and detractors on BOTH sides of the fence so you can't mindlessly
get in line behind any one party. Pay attention and trust your instincts rather than
the media! The multi-national corporations/financial institutions want to govern the world in lieu of any global oversight and insert themselves into the power vacuum that currently exists at that level.

And it's no accident that Wall Street has spent the last few decades working its way into everybody's pension plans.

what it needs?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7256498&mesg_id=7256498

(From Boston.com)

"In an example of how fragile credit markets have become, the state of Massachusetts yesterday tried to borrow $400 million to make its routine quarterly local aid payments to cities and towns. State treasury officials said the credit markets abruptly froze midday, leaving them $170 million short. The state will have to use its own funds to complete the local aid payments, draining the state's balance to extremely low levels.

"I don't think any treasurer alive could say they've ever seen anything like this," said Timothy P. Cahill, the state's treasurer. "There have always been cash shortages, but you could always go to the market and get more. This is the first time we haven't been able to do that."

Cahill said he believes the credit market will in effect remain shuttered today as the nation's largest lenders hold on to their cash amid uncertainty over plans for a federal bailout. In short, the House's rejection of a $700 billion Wall Street bailout plan takes Massachusetts and the rest of the US economy into territory that few policy makers and analysts wanted to explore."

SNIP

supposedly denied credit, conveniently reported in the pro-big business Globe. Has Texas had any problems lately? Get back to me when it does.

it with the Boston Herald.

The Herald is a conservative tabloid true but the Globe has never struck me as particularly liberal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/21/politics/main3638135.shtml

President yet. Very few newspapers have. Here's the list:

http://www.demconwatchblog.com/2008/09/presidential-newspaper-endorsement-list.html

with our willing support of Pinochet? Allende was the democratically-elected leader of Chile who was overthrown in a coup that the U.S. helped to perpetrate in Chile on an earlier 9-11. The one where students were taken into the soccer stadium and shot. The one where young pregnant women were kept alive until their babies were delivered and were then murdered in cold blood while their children were handed over to Pinochet's cronies.

Pinochet, the military dictator who was getting laundered money through Bush uncle help via Rigg's Bank, who was subsequently fined millions for this during Jr's term.

anyway, just to put a little history behind the perspective...Wall Street wants taxpayers to pay for their worthless loans and they are playing hardball to make that happen - that would be my guess - just as the rich in Chile tried to bring down Allende by trying to close down the financial sector.

just for curiosity's sake... were you aware of the U.S.'s collusion in the murder and torture of students in Chile and the Allende coup?

He's supporting a rescue plan, and he's been studying this problem for at least a year.

I trust his conclusions more than any poster on a blog.

which is a horrible bill. but see, he has to win an election. that doesn't mean everything he does is perfect.

so, did you know about Allende and Chile and the coup and the bank freeze?

Returning to Obama, though, I see no reason why he'd support an politically UNPOPULAR bill -- that will hamstring his administration once he gets in office -- in order to win an election. That doesn't make any sense.

He's taken a politically unpopular position because he thinks it's the "least worst" of the alternatives.

but he supported it.

Money has power. The strongholds for the democrats are on the coasts, including the HUGE financial sector in NYC. This is a case in which the dems vote as elites for elites. happens all the time.

in monthly mortgage payments" but it's apparently some kind of "joke," haw haw, funny how the unsuspecting might just believe it.

:grr: :grr:

I swear, the shills will stoop to any lie to get their lousy payola.

Remember the 80's and early 90's. Higher interest and they were alot more selective who they gave loans to. I was happy to get a loan in 1996 at 8% and I had good credit. Loose lending practices have to stop, qualifications need to tighten, and conventional fixed loans need to be the norm.

And I am tired of being nice - you are a fucking IDIOT if you don't recognize it!

We are NOT bailing out individual companies, we are trying to restore a little bit of confidence to try to open up the frozen credit market. No, I'm not talking about "credit cards" or "mortgages" or even "car loans". I am talking about you getting your fucking paycheck. I am talking about you being able to go to your job tomorrow and your job still being there!

Google "broke the buck". That's what most politicians have been not telling you about they are afraid if you know how really fucking serious this is you will PANIC and make a run on the banks and just make a terrifying problem even worse.

Do you want to know how fucking serious this is? This didn't even happen in 1929 before the Great Depression. This could be much worse.

But you want to be all smug and say "nay-na-na-boo-boo".

Meanwhile, you may not have a fucking job next week. I hope you have a lot in savings - at least the FDIC insured $100k. Because it will run out quickly. You like your internet? Kiss it goodbye. You like your cell-phone? Kiss it goodbye. You like cable TV? Kiss it goodbye. And that's just the beginning.

When you are eating out of trashcans. I COULD say "I told you so", but I won't.

Here, t-t-take all my money just please don't hurt my color TV!!! :cry: :cry:

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9MTZEgukPLY&refer=home

So where's the crisis?

We're already screwed. This is a just a payoff and a new scam.

Wake up and smell the corruption!

Bet when the majority of us tell you "I told you so" you won't even admit you were wrong!!!

The people who opposed it at the time were crazy but now everybody opposes it. There have already been some ridiculous potential "told you so" moments in the past couple of days. Some people said that the bill was a done deal on Monday morning. Some people said that we would be seeing mass layoffs and business failures by now without the bailout. Of course that all disappears in retrospect and the "I told you so" isn't possible.

They're good at that. :mad: