Foolish enough to think we prevented a Recession

I hope everyone here at DU is intelligent to understand nothing, Absolutely Nothing in this Bill voted in by the Senate is going to prevent the coming recession.

In fact this Bill severely prevents any soon to be elected President from taking any monetary measures to limit or stave off the Recession.

No – it merely means the same Banks that helped manipulate Real Estate prices through the roof and create market panic for 1st time buyers, will be operating unimpeded by the economic recession this Bail out will cause when they come for the keys on your foreclosed home so they can sell it to foreign investors

Say Good Bye American Dream
It’s been fun but I got to go

You can not Spend your way out of a Regulatory Problem

and great depression, which is what was always said about this bill and the economy.

the bill still comes dues, and now we just tacked on a few trillion, just to make sure it hurts.

Oh wait...

This was a temporary fix, which is also always what has been said.

it never seems to get corrected later on. The Military Commissions Act comes to mind, along with many others they promised to go back and "revisit" later. It just never happens.

We'll be scratching are heads wondering how we ever got in the Bread Lines before we know it

And for those that aren't already there, don't worry. You'll get there soon enough and when you're there you'll have plenty of company.

FreakinDJ, please save me a spot if you get there ahead of me and I'll do the same for you.

And the problems with the judicial system is all because of the "activist" judges. Hmmm...now where have I heard that before...think dammit think...

Where was everybody at DU? Everybody is all in a tizz now, oh how they worry about those who are going to be foreclosed on. How come half this place was angry about those people who lied to get loans they couldn't afford, and now they're angry about them getting foreclosed on.

And could you puhleeze stick to the topic at hand.

Uh, in July I wasn't on my computer as I tend to not be on it much during the summer months. The topic on hand is the bailout bill.

Aside from that, your post doesn't make a whole helluva lot of sense.

Real cost over $1 TRILLION Dollars.
ALL on the nation's Credit Card!
(send the bill to your children)!


Are you INSANE.

That is MORE than the upfront cost of the ENTIRE Iraq Invasion & Occupation!

For a "Temporary Fix"......

you believe that when in a hole, best idea is to keep digging.

Words of wisdom are: don't try to fix problems, stop causing them.

But I guess you will never understand.

Can you describe for us, in detail, Hoover's plan for bailing out the banks?

n/t

there is much legislation that needs to be passed

And WE NEED a congress that will go there, the current one will not

See depression era legislation and regulations? Those are the scaffolds for this

and what every Democrat has said as well. This was never going to prevent a recession, just possibly a global financial collapse and depression.

A Deal by your standards

Yes, I'd say $850 billion is a deal. :eyes:

And I don't have a penny of stock or other investments and never will. But I sure know I prefer to have my clients able to pay me, than not.

but now your turning this conversation into totally selfish reasoning for supporting this bill

Small Community Banks are not having the same problems as these Mega-Wall St Banks. Thay didn't buy into this Whole Mortgage Backed Securities Fruad

But answer me this - when was Trickle Down Economics EVER Good for the Country

That's the ONLY thing I have seen from those backing it. I have yet to see any sound economic justification for it from anyone yet I have seen MANY arguments against it from economic experts that know FAR more about this than the vast majority of us could ever hope to know.

And you're right that the small banks aren't having any problems. My CU would have given me a loan for a new car last week with zero down if I had wanted it. (I aksed, just out of curiosity. No problem!) Then again, i's a CU so they had shunned the whole idea of "interest only" mortgages and all the other scams that were out there.

Trickle Down Economics works great...for the top .1%. Meanwhile the rest of us get screwed and the whole economy goes to shit. Reaganomics anyone?

So you just told me a whole lot more about you than you think you know about me. The reason you don't give a shit is because of your own selfish reasoning.

getting a loan if I had wanted one. If that's your economic justification for supporting this bill, it doesn't hold water. And who are you to say I don't give a shit? You don't know me so who are you to judge? What's selfish about not wanting the poor and middle class to have to bail out the greedy rich bastards that caused this whole mess in the fist place? Why not make the rich pay for their own bailout? To me, it's selfish to stick the poor and middle class with paying for the bailout and anyone that ignores that aspect of the bill is the one that is being selfish.

At any rate, the bill passed so you must be absolutely delighted. Go out and get those loans. Check back in 6 months or so and let me know how those loans are doing for you. :sarcasm:

I really didn't appreciate being accused of "being selfish" and "not giving a shit" when all I was doing was trying to defend the poor and middle class from being saddled with a burden that the rich should rightfully bear. I grew up really poor so that ticked me off big time. Thanks for your support!

little being offered here on that pathway --

the logical one, IMO ...

We were lucky with FDR -- I don't know that we can escape fascism twice in one century ---

???

and more probabl;y will over time.

of the year

How many of us have been screaming about that one?

At least this is somewhat targeted, not like oh Hoover did

yardstick" value of capitalism vs a more socially responsible-value based economy --

Basically, had their never been a capitalistic notion of bus-i-ness, we'd be ahead in

avoiding the pollution of our planet and destruction of nature/Global Warming ...

Where's the "value" in capitalism's artificial dollar bills for the few when so

much of real value has been destroyrd...?

yup, bless the marksmanship of Paulson, Cheney and other targeters... LOL

We just mimiced the Bone Head that caused the 1st Great Depression

and we all know how well that worked out for him

and pay attention the next time a Housing Act comes to the table and fight to get it right.

The Bill passed tonight is TOXIC and EVERY RADIO station in America is saying just how bad it is

I understand a lot of people are saying that. I also understand a lot of people aren't looking at the details of what Hoover did and more importantly didn't do.

In short, his efforts were too limited, creating a momentary stabilization, during which he did nothing else, and the stringent policies under which his plans labored were then ineffective in dealing with the continued crisis.

The point here, as has been repeated ad nauseum, is try to stabilize (and that simply means prevent complete collapse) to allow time to do what Hoover didn't do.

And that makes electing Obama even more important than it already was.

The money will be gone, or leveraged long before Obama is sworn into office

A major portion of the problem with these Banking Institutions is the cost of doing business with "Deregulated Assets"

We've been more fond of them lately it seems, so I'm going to offer up one of my own.

You've got a house. This thing looks pretty, has been a great place for you to stay for awhile, but it's got a really bad foundation because it was built over an old creek bed that rises now and again, and the wiring is all screwed up. You're aware of this, sorta, but you don't do much about it.

Over time, the foundation starts to shift, and you know problems are coming, but you still don't do much but paint over the cracks in the walls. Meanwhile, you're going through light bulbs like they're candy, and the television has had to be replaced, and all your electronics are exhibiting erratic behavior. You think it might be all the power surges and brown outs you keep having, but you don't know, and you suspect if your guess that the wiring is the problem is true, it's gonna cost too much to fix it all. Plus, you still have this foundation problem, and that's eating up resources. You're putting your kids in danger by letting this continue, but it'll be okay, you think.

Finally, one day, there's a minor earthquake after several days of heavy rain. You don't really feel the quake; it's small, but you sure see what it's doing to the house. The cracks are big this time, and ... oh shit, what's this? The basement, where you keep all your important documents in cardboard boxes, is flooding, and the wiring in the walls has become exposed, and ... oh shit, there's a fire!

Now, what do you do first? Put out the fire or rebuild the foundation and replace the wires?

and your house burns down

I agree we need some thing to put the fire out

We've talked about CDSs and VOX and SETFs till the cows came home around here. Let me help you put a couple things together

Until the Deregulatory blunders are addressed, any funding extended Wall St. is simply throwing good money after bad, and in part "throwing money at China".

These crazy dirivitives are unpredictable in their VOX because the market has become unstable under the weight of Debt (US Gov, Mortgages,Trade)and needs to be undone. It will take time and financial support from the US Gov to give Banking the ability to change back to pre-Phil Gramm Deregulations.

That we should do and will need to, but instead of Tax Payer's footing the bill Wall St can do it on their own to the tune of $150Billion per yr that will be generated by a SETF

Simple enough

The $700 Billion Dollar gift to the Wall Street Barons doesn' fix the foundation OR put out the fire.

The "BailOut" is more like sending all your children's money to the rich guy that sold you the house on a bad foundation in the desperate hope that he may let you use his phone to call the Fire Dept.

I don't agree with the characterization necessarily, but it's a creative way of looking at it that highlights the same problem.

The bottom line is we have a few bad choices and no good ones. The house needs to be fixed, and the bastard that sold it to us needs to be fined and put in jail. But we got a little matter of a fire first that, if we don't take care of it, is going to leave us much to work with.

and then you move to other place. And this time you don't build your wigwam in the middle of a river.

What do they call repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results? Insanity, that's what.

In the context of those claiming that Hoover's "bank bailout" was exactly the same as what went through the Senate today, can you describe the similarities?

How about the differences?

(Edit: Excess punctuation)

NT!

hook - line- sinker

This bill only DELAYS the Second Great Depression and allows banks to save themselves and hand us the bill.

just that it might not be as deep, and most likely, (assuming it works in getting credit moving again) in preventing a depression

You do know the difference between these terms?

By the way I will NOT be too shocked if this is as bad as the 1980s, but I'll take that over 1932, as hard as that will be

or controll how DEEP the recession will be

What do you suggest - print up some more money

they have pumped into the market in the way Hoover did it... over the course of the last year?

Trust me, far more than just 700 B

Name just One Bill Act, or Excutive order that "High Functioning Moron" ever did that benifited the Working Class.

Hoover attempted to bail out the crisis by giving to the banks and it failed miserably. Now we have Bush doing the same thing.

It didn't work then

It won't work now

UNTIL NOW what they have been doing is exactly what Hoover did... to the tune of over two trillion dollars, read it again

TWO TRILLION... and many of us, particularly in the Economy section of this board, have been SCREAMING about THAT. Not that anybody noticed, until now that is.

What this bill is doing, and it is FAR FROM PERFECT... in fact it is MUCH WORST NOW due to the pork in there... is TARGETING The money to get liquidity going, which is essential to keep this from going much further down hill

In fact, what do you think I will probably do tonight? Oh yes, read all 460+ pages of the CURRENT bill passed by the Senate... because unlike most people here I know one has to follow these things to make an INFORMED comment with the House and Senate...

By the way I highly recommend you read what the Roosevelt administration did early on exactly about credit and banks, since lack of liquidity and trust were two of the drivers of the Depression... then again you are right, it didn't work then either :sarcasm:

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PART OF THE SOLUTION To the great depression also involved getting that liquidity going

THAT WAS PART OF IT, not the whole thing, and the 1950s, in case you missed it, was a MIXED economy

This is, or should be, the first step... steps to follow this include PLENTY OF PROGRESSIVE, bottom up legislation

Get it now?

What has been going on UNTIL NOW is fully hooverian, including the denials that there is a problem

Now I WANT that progressive legislation. I KNOW the current congress would not pass it even if their lives depended on it (and they do)

So what are you planning to do to ENSURE the next congress does?

Or I can guarantee you a worst nightmare than just this bill... it is called Friedman economics, and you have not seen anything yet.

In fact, people are sounding like Early Republicans fighting against the new deal back in the day... and no, this is NOT the new deal... FAR FROM IT

So once again, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO ENSURE THE NEXT CONGRESS GOES THERE?

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here you go from wiki

Mixed economy

v • d • e
A mixed economy is an economic system that incorporates aspects of more than one economic system. This usually means an economy that contains both privately-owned and state-owned enterprises<1> or that combines elements of capitalism and socialism, or a mix of market economy and planned economy characteristics.<2>
There is not one single definition for a mixed economy,<3> but relevant aspects include: a degree of private economic freedom (including privately owned industry) intermingled with centralized economic planning (which may include intervention for environmentalism and social welfare, or state ownership of some of the means of production).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Of course here are some links to more SCHOLARLY papers on this

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1816193

And far less scholarly too

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1816193

So be careful who you call a high functioning moran from free republic ok.

Working Class stiffs made enough to send their children to college and the doctor without 2 jobs

one of the reasons why it was so successful is that it was a mixed economy with STRONG labor

Where exactly did the scaffolding for THAT one come from?

Oh yes, the Depression Era legislation....

So once again, what are you planning to do to ensure that YOUR NEXT CONGRESS goes there?

They will be under incredible pressure to go IMF on you.

Now I don't expect an apology for that flame, but that's ok... should never expect an apology

By every economist and historian's account I've ever read.

Some who favor Reagenomics and Trickle Down Theory attempt to gloss over those facts and even attempt to blame Unions for the market crash. The emerging unions were "little and powerless" back then

Also missing from the "Wiki Version" is the fact much of the growing manufacturing sector were over producing and stock piling their surplus products. They then listed the unsold surplus as "assets" in the company portfolio to further inflate their stock value and the market.

It wasn't just an "Over Zealous Public" to blame

Now Real Estate has been highly inflated and the "Deregulated Markets" have created "Virtual Mortgage Derivatives". As Hoover's attempt to shore up America by Bailing out the Banking sector failed so shall to this plan.

The Deregulated markets have become too costly by their own accord and their "falsely inflated assets have proven worthless.

It was not until FDR placed "Regulations" on Industry and Banking did consumer confidence return and the Banking system become truly viable again.

You can say we need to Finance Main St and Business but if no one can afford to buy any thing no matter how much money you throw at Wall St - American won't be shopping

Hoover economics

I keep saying this is NOT the end.

So nice for the history lesson, and true... I will ask again WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO ENSURE THAT THE PROPER LEGISLATION IS PASSED?

Or is this just about talking a little revolution only?

When you were reading those economists and historians, did you come to an understanding of why Hoover's policies failed?

If so, could you offer us a summary of that argument?

I ask because you've got comments in the latter half of your post that criticize Hoover's attempt to bail out the banking sector.

Understand "bailout the banking sector" is a phrase that gives no detail. Why, in your view, did Hoover's bailout not work?

Can you offer us some details about Hoover's bailout?

Vatter, Harold G. _The U.S. Economy in the 1950's -- An Economic History_.
New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1963.

A quote from the review linked in nadinbrzezinski's post:

"The book is divided into ten chapters. The first two are introductory -
Chapter 1 summarizes the major distinguishing economic characteristics of
the 1950's, and Chapter 2 describes the institutional setting of the "mixed
economy" - an economy in which policy issues get formulated mainly in
terms of little more or a little less of government intervention."

This is used as a textbook, btw.

Just sayin' ...

The system "increased liquidity" by reducing interest rates to spur the economy. It failed. That policy was really another form of "trickle down" economics. The REAL problem with the economy was not enough "demand". Increasing liquidity was useless, because if you loan money to a person who has no job, and can't pay off the loan, you just create more bad debt. If you loan a factory money to produce goods that they can't sell (no demand), that also increases bad debt.

The lack of demand was due to people cutting back on spending because they had lost their jobs, and lost the money that they had invested in the stock market. (Demand, by definition, is people with money to spend who want to spend it. Low demand implies that people lack money, or they have it, but don't want to spend it.)

What Roosevelt did was set up the WPA to pay people to work on public works projects. This gave people money to spend and so increased demand and began a recovery.

The Republican plan was to "reduce supply" to push the prices up. To reduce supply, they had farmers burn crops, dump milk, and slaughter animals and bury the carcasses. Of course, this was sheer lunacy. If people don't have money to spend on food, how will they bid up prices by reducing supply?

The "real" economy is going to collapse anyway, irrespective of the stock market, or liquidity, because of the massive debt we owe other countries because of the huge trade deficit. The REAL economy will ONLY be fixed when this country reduces its trade deficit by changing or eliminating the cartel agreements such as NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, which offshore jobs and promotes the outflow of money to Asia.

In fact, injecting more billions into the failed financial institutions to prop them up may compound the problem by creating more debt for the taxpayers.

The fallacy is believing that the stock market controls the economy. When you accept that premise, you automatically accept "trickle down" theory. What affects the economy is demand. Most of what goes on in the stock market are Ponzi schemes a la Enron.

The elimination of jobs in America by the offshoring of those jobs, and importing on credit just about everything that we consume, is what is destroying this economy. The stock market is in a bubble all of its own. The stock market is a giant gambling casino in which almost all the games are rigged.

can economic system based on printing dollars out of thin air to get imported goods last?

Not much longer.

but rather we are being peed on.

Why didn't they do that hmm? That alone should give everyone pause.

FYI-You will be proved wrong but you probably won't even admit it when that time comes. :eyes:

I want one

losing their jobs,houses,cars can't buy gas to find a job, food is becoming an issue yes for some folks so, what defines a recession?

a contraction of less than 10% is technically a recession, usually with upwards of 15% unemployment, the Reagan recession, a deep one, had 16% unemployment

A depression goes into the 20 % or above unemployment and an GNP contraction of 10% or more

Of course if you are the one unemployed it is a depression... which is an old time economist joke

Oh and there is a guv'ment body that decides on this, based on numbers the NEBR

There are other ways we could define them... but since the Great Depression people have suffered, but mostly not starved

Oh and we are in it already, and I suspect the NEBR will make it official

That is why during Reagen's first 16 months in office we had rampant unemployment

Recession is defined by 2 consecutive quarters of a contraction in GNP - That is Wall St's definition

that the official GDP, inflation and unemployment numbers are total pollyanna (self)deception with very little to do with real economy?

US has been in recession since the dotcom collapse and is allready in depression.

until then, it's just a "market adjustment". :sarcasm:

in the coming weeks. this little stunt did nothing at all for we the people regardless of those that want so feverently to believe it helped us...

twelve of his colleagues getting laid off without notice yesterday I expressed my sadness for them and their families, he admitted he really didn't feel all that bad and was just thankful he was not one of them...I can understand to an extent but in the same breath I am a bit disheartened to realize that many americans will feel the same...they will just be thankful it was not them and not stand up to these massive companies who continue to send "OUR" jobs to other countries in effect aiding to bankrupt the very country they themselves were born in and reside..how un american can one be and not be called out on such?

I am so worn out by the relentless pursuit of Corporate Greed selling this country down the toilet, fully aided and abetted by Freeptards sold on Reagenomics and the FAILED Trickle Down Theory

as with outsourcing being so profitable and without proper regulations it seems the freedom for companies to continue this practice will surely be the death of our beloved country and it's people....

We have no manufacturing sector anymore - its all been shipped to China

At least during the 30s we had expansion of the Automotive Industry, and Heavy Tools to carry large sections of this country

this time it might not be quite some time before we will see the light so to speak...

for some to realize just how many are becoming a casualty for the unemployment line and as we all know, unemployment is not long term, not long enough when there is just no job becoming available since it is now long gone overseas....before people realize the number of people losing jobs that will never again become available I am afraid it just might be too late.

what will we build? Alternative energy? can that help to create a lot of jobs - if people are even able to become educated in the field?

being kept in place with Democratic leadership --

set downs about the people's need of that whole area was not all that important that sooner or later those very people that cried loud and long about letting our southern coasts citizens should be fending for themselves that sooner or later karma would come back to bite them and hard....I said sooner or later they will one day be in similar dire straits and day after day, year after year the trickle down of those facing hard times are amassing in record numbers and across our great country...in some ways my vengeful inner self says screw them, they got what they deserved but then my other self can't help but feel for their once obvious hateful racist and bigoted ignorance that forces them to diss those in need....

I just don't always understand people's selfishness and hypocrisy that is so blatantly displayed when someone is begging for help without a thread of common decency in display that demands we realize we are in retrospect our brothers and sisters keepers and as such we all demand a certain amount of respect and dignity for every human being world wide...

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Now you are getting angry... I don't know why nor do I care

By the way... you say that they have not sunk over 2T into the market already? This week alone 630B

You may want to use the google, and get a little curious, and find this for yourself

I'm not a fan of Reagenomics and the Trickle Down Theory and after the 3rd Reagenomics induced Melt Down to date I thought you might have fiquared that out

is not that different from very early depression era economic legislation... as in VERY EARLY

I also know that they didn't stop there and lord help us if we do that because this bill cannot be the end all to solve all crisis and it is not meant to be that either.

So I am going to ask again, what are you going to do to ensure that the congress goes out and revises oh I don't know, the Warner act to give you things like a guaranteed LIVING wage, not like it reads right now minimum wage?

The first thing you should do is get yourself an introductory history of the Great Depression... and learn something

Especially if you do not want to look silly by calling an informed poster that I can assure you is far to the left of you, a freeper.

reading "Shock Doctrine" which quickly schools one on Chicago School Economics. But, I've been trying to find video online of the riots from Depression Era. I mean the ones that were censored for so many years, where the people set massive fires and really rioted en masse. I know I've seen them in a documentary, but can't think which one. I think people on here need to see just how far people went before they got to the New Deal.

1.- This is not shock doctrine

2.- It is closer to the kind of policy used early in the depression

I know folks would love this to be shock doctrine... but it is not

Now it could very quickly become that under certain conditions

from a number of directions -- and imagine much gone on we don't know ...

but this is world wide... and this crisis just got critical with Lehman... but it's been taking shape for a year or so... and why many of us have been screaming about this for a LONG TIME

Read the early history of the Depression and the causes

I could point to 1875 same damn reasons

go to any good site that goes through the history of the depression

Look at the causes

Hell's bells look at 1875

Same structural reasons

Reaganomics is the cause of this in the US (Trickle down in fact)

And by the way... if you want to talk marxist theory we can... until the cows come home

But this is the time to get ready to fight for what you want, not here, in the streets

And this is the time to adopt a more pragmatic view

By the way... funny thing happened on the way to the forum... nations that have a better regulated system are doing far better

See holand, see germany... even see france

Countries that are not, are doing worst

See the US, the UK.

And China will soon join us in the pain ... oh wait, they already are...

As is I now know it is impossible to talk history... the ideological glasses are far worst now than they ever have been... in fact just as bad for the American left and the American right

"Robber Barons" and those who wanted fascism in America --

I'm arguing for immediate remedy and re-regulation --- and Wall St paying --

We also now have militarized police enforcement so we're going to have to be creative about

"coming into the streets=" -- pre-think it and do it smartly --



You're arguing my points ...

But this is the time to get ready to fight for what you want, not here, in the streets

And this is the time to adopt a more pragmatic view

By the way... funny thing happened on the way to the forum... nations that have a better regulated system are doing far better

See holand, see germany... even see france

Countries that are not, are doing worst

See the US, the UK.

And China will soon join us in the pain ... oh wait, they already are...

However,less alleged superiority would help you ...

As is I now know it is impossible to talk history... the ideological glasses are far worst now than they ever have been... in fact just as bad for the American left and the American right

Now I'll better take my leave

I guess I'd better just shy away from trying to 'splain anything, after all they wanted to crash this five weeks before a national election

Wonders never cease...

if anytihng they have been trying to HOLD THE DIKE together

There are conspiracies... but this one ain't one of them

Thankfully... people IRL are far less ideological and far more realistic

I think I'll stick with people in real life who are not into this kind of thinking

And you think this is a GOOD thing?

This $700 billion, no matter how it is spent, cannot stop this recession. It's got a long way to go before we hit bottom, at least another 10% loss of the DOW.

Anyone?

And as is usually the case, most of those srceaming the loudest neither understand the bill- or the consequences of failure to act, yet keep repeating simplistic mantras.

Indeed, there are more than a few kooks on this board who WANT to see the global financial system collapse- regardless of who it hurts.

And it's sad. I try to ignore it. I probably shouldn't, but I do because I just don't have the energy to have that many arguments.

they feed off one another's anger and self-destructiveness.

...in kicking this to the curb, with public sentiment so set against it. They could have dictated the terms if they had, instead of being owned as they are now. As usual.

:argh:

Why are people still lobbying us about this?

If it is a temporary fix, or a first step, or prevented a recession, or made things better, then we will see that now as we go along, will we not?

It is over. Bush signed the bill. What is it that people are still arguing with us about, still trying to sell us on?

Lets look on the bright side, we'll all be neighbors in the local Bushvilles. You know, a nice spot under a bridge. Or maybe we'll meet in a hobo jungle some where and have a fascinating discussion about the many benefits of market capitalism and republicanism.:mad::mad::mad: