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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:23 AM
Original message
Gates and Buffett, creating wealth doesn't mean your greedy
Nt every rich person is a greedy evil person, Gates foundation is biggest charitable organization in the world and is doing a lot to help people in terms food, healthcare globally and he has been moving his wealth consistently into the foundation and has said he plans to only leave his kids a small amount of money, i think he said 5 million

Buffett announced how he is giving him all his money because creating his own foundation and the overhead to run it would be duplicitous and he sees how well the Gates Foundation is run and he agrees with their vision.

People need to focus the real blaim here, deregulation can only go so far because people and companies are not trustworthy as a whole, as history has shown, not every person cares about how they treat people or the common good, without regulation some people would not care if they had 5 years working in factories, provide safe working environment, employ slave labor, have a minimum wage, give equal pay for same job for woman or minorities, sell food that meets standards, make sure a restaurants kitchens meet certain sanitary requirements, etc.

In theory free economies work but for some people, human life that is not there own is inconsequential, our own history is basicly riddled with it from natice americans and slavery, on and on, its only been the last 20 years that a general sense of equality in the workplace has started to exist. Deregulate enough and we could be on a slippery slope back in time.

Like this banking fiasco, its not the persons fault they were given loans that they did not qualify for, the average citizen does not know how the system works, its the banks job to not have been gambling to such a degree on swaps and derivatives, things i don't think I fully understand but all know is if regulation was there this would probably not have happened IMO.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. There are some very good humanitarian and progressive multimillionaires
Welcome to DU. You are right greed and inhumanity is present in any pay grade.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. bullshit
greed by the few creates poverty of the many.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I Agree. I don't think that wealth distribution should be flat but it should look like a bell curve
Edited on Thu Oct-02-08 11:41 AM by Indenturedebtor
More than a logarithmic function. AND no one should go hungry, homeless, or without healthcare when anyone owns a private jet.

Free markets are good, but the three basics of human life shouldn't be a part of the market.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. How is giving 40 billion dollars to charity "greed" in your estimation? n/t
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Because he amassed it for himself
then when he no longer wants it or needs it gives it away so everyone will know how great he is. He will be remembered like Carnegie and other greedy assholes who sometimes pass for great men.

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. So there is something wrong with trying to make your business successful?
Microsoft is not one of my favorite companies (I'm an open source, linux-lovin' kinda guy) but I don't grudge them their success. Right place, right time and all that. And I don't believe Gates is the Thomas Edison of software (actually, Thomas Edison isn't the Thomas Edison of electricity either...but never mind). He got lucky to a certain extent. But he made wise use of his luck.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Microsoft went out of their way to destroy competitors and purposely sell "crippled" software.
Even with the billions they made selling DOS and Windows, they drove other companies in the computer field out of business, or close to it, by making Microsoft software not work well with non-Microsoft programs, using their deep pockets to file "frivolous" lawsuits against competitors, and purposely selling defective software to a gullible public.

I programmed computers, including IBM PCs, for several years. I had a low opinion of Microsoft products back in the early 1980's. As a programmer, I had plenty of experience to compare Microsoft products to other computer companies' products. In almost every case, Microsoft came up short.

By the way, Microsoft never innovated anything. The DOS 1.0 operating system was a piece of garbage bought for pennies from another company. Their office suite, and even Flight Simulator, were programs written by others that were purchased or copycatted after others innovated and demonstrated that a market existed.

Think of Microsoft as the Halliburton of software.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. No, really?
I used to be a PC magazine journalist, and I suspect I know at least as much about MS as you do. If you think this is somehow unique in the industry, think again. Everyone else was doing the same thing. Remember all the lawsuits trying to exploit UNIX patents? Didn't Aplle rip off most of their ideas from Xerox PARC? IBM weren't exactly teddy bears, but it's not Microsoft's fault that OS/2 turned out to be such a steaming pile of shit.

I'm well aware of Microsoft's negatives. but to listen to people complain about them, you'd think they were the Wicked Witch of the West and everyone else in computer land was a happy little munchkin motivated by peace, love and understanding. The reality is that everyone was playing the same game, but Microsoft just proved to be the most successful at it.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Gates bought DOS, Mac got mouse from Xerox. Gates > you, 1000s of employees made millionaires
your an idiot, trash a guy who didn't waste his money on Jets, his worth was in stock, he never paid himself outrageous sums of money like Dell and Ellison, who got an italian fighter jet for his son for graduating 8th grade. He flew commercially while his counterparts had corporate jets and personal jets. He built a nice house in Washington that costs quite a bit of money but, but its not like he has palaces all over the place.

The Gates Foundation, anyone can send them a request to fund a project, I know someone who did, for computer equipment in a low income inner city neighborhood at a YMCA where kids got tutored by local college students.

They built state of the art computer centers at many universities like stanford and MIT as more students could access computers for research and coursework.

I also had a friend at college who came from a low income family. He got a scholarship that covered everything, 36k tuition, his room and board, book costs, travel expenses to and from his house and even a stipend so he didn't need to work while he went to school. They flew him out to Seattle and he had dinner at their house with some other scholarship winners.

Bill Gates is a person you should admire, guys like him and Buffett are who we want running these companies, not the Dick Cheneys of the world.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Doubtful.
You'd have a point if he lived as Carnegie did, but he doesn't. For someone of his insane wealth he lives a relatively modest life. And he's donating 40+ billion dollars to helping people in the third world. Unless your argument is that nobody should ever be rich in the first place (and I'm pretty sure that's your argument) then I'm finding it hard to understand exactly how you think someone of such wealth *should* behave. I think the world would be a lot better off with more people like Buffett running companies as opposed to people like Ken Lay.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
87. You're right
For someone with his insane wealth, a house worth a mere 147.5 million (according to wikipedia) is modest. WHAT A SAINT!

Maybe he really is a better dude than the robber barons. But the fact is he made that money because he is greedy for personal success. Is that bad? Well, I will let everyone decide that for himself, but it was suggested earlier that Gates is NOT GREEDY, when all that can reasonably said is just what you did: he probably is not as cruel as other greedy people. Forgive me if I don't, as someone else said, consider him the "Thomas Edison of software."

And yes, my argument is that after a certain point when you amass wealth you are proving yourself to be a selfish shit. You really think Gates was amassing all this wealth because he felt it needed to be redistributed? That Microsoft ruthlessly killed competition because it knew they would not be so generous with the money?

I guess it is nice to know that of all the selfish shits the world's biggest company was founded by a mild case. Hooray.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Wild Success of the Few Creates Envy for the Many
Who game the system in the attempt to copy success.
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An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
67. Like I've said before, the wealthiest 50% of people in this country are theives by definition.
They have stolen more than their fair share from the national wealth.

It's so fucking simple! There is 'x' amount of wealth in the world. For every dollar the rich steals, the poor has one less.

The fact that we refuse to either punish the wealthiest 50% or simply take their excess money is disgusting.
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. Wha?
It sounds like you are serious. What you seem to be advocating is a dangerous form of socialism bordering on communism. It sounds like a forced redistribution of wealth to create financial equality. That leaves the workers of this nation in a place where hard work and education have no value. Why pay for education if the increased salary you can earn from it will just be taken away? Why work hard when you can wash lettuce all day in the back of McDonalds and still receive what you need?
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An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Are you a free-marketist? It sure seems that way.
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Not in the slightest
and what I said has nothing to do with free markets.
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An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Free-marketists put freedom before social equity and social justice. You do the same.
Instead of promoting social progress, you want to let fat cats keep their money!
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. forced social equality
does not equal social progress. It turns us into sheep. We get herded to our respective pins, provide our wool to cover our necessities and go home cold. By being forced to be equal we lose our individuality and I for one would hate to live in that world. Sure there need to be some social policies and I'm not against progressive taxation but there is a point where you go too far and you seem to want to go to that place.
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An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. If "forcing" is wrong, should taxes be voluntary?
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. duplicate
Edited on Fri Oct-03-08 12:20 PM by pnutbutr
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. I absolutely agree
and if you note, Gates' father is part of an organization that opposed the repeal of the inheritance tax. Buffet notes that he pays less in taxes than his secretary, and that this is not right.

the issue, for democracy, is that the greater the disparity in income, the weaker the democracy. A strong middle class is necessary for a strong democracy. Conservative Kevin Phillips makes this case over and over in his books, like Wealth and Democracy.

Regulation would most certainly have avoided much of this problem. In the 1980s, the president of a privately-owned bank told a group of us that the S&L deregulation would create enormous bankruptcies because regulation is necessary when a system's only reward, otherwise, is profit. He was right.

Unfortunately, we've had thirty years of right wing bullshit about taxes and deregulation and that's what we have to fight against. When people are so tax averse while also making millions, it is, imo, repulsive to see bridges collapsing because states need money to pay for infrastructure, for instance.

The problem is current republican/corporate ideology, not wealth per se.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yeah, what Rain Dog said...
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. The problem is the large percentage of Americans who live in a fantasy world, and reject reality.
Most of the rest of the industrialized world accepts the need for minimal social safety nets and universal health care. Yet there are ongoing arguments in this country, and even on DU, about bailing out a bunch of crooks instead of helping the victims of a gigantic swindle.

Get real folks. This so-called bailout will not help the "real" economy which suffers from massive trade deficits, NOT lack of liquidity. It was the overextension of credit that CAUSED the problem. Selling balloon mortgages to bad credit risks WAS THE SCAM. The real estate agencies and the banks got their money up front from commissions and fees. Selling derivatives was just frosting on the cake, a way to add to their profits.

This country spends almost twice as much per capita on medical care as any other country, yet 47 million people are uninsured or underinsured, and the quality of health care in the U.S. is way down anybody's list that rates health care outcomes around the world.

Most of the health care cost goes to advertising and marketing, duplicative administrative costs, and huge profits to the insurance companies, drug companies, and many of the huge hospital conglomerates. Reorganization of the medical industry with a government-run, single-payer health care system would provide a system that would give every citizen access to affordable health care, improve outcomes, and SAVE MONEY by eliminating the bloated costs of the current system. This is a no-brainer. There are numerous models to adapt from in other countries.

Yet we see arguments against reforming the system even from the people who would benefit from such reform. This is the same mechanism that enables right wingers to argue against the FACT of global climate change and the NEED for human intervention, by citing a few oil and coal industry-sponsored critics as "proof" that this is merely a "debate" when thousands of scientists say there is a problem and we need to do something about it.

A large number of Americans prefer to cling to their fantasies rather than face up to our problems and deal with them. The people who believe (fervently hope) that this bailout will save the "real" economy (the problems of which are due to the massive trade deficit caused by the offshoring of jobs), are at the same level of credulity as the "fundies" who want to bring on "armageddon" because they are so sure that Jesus will save THEM.


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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Preach on, my Brother!
Wow! Well said!!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. !!!!
:applause: :thumbsup: :applause:
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
39. Cultural and Ethnic ties help them, McCain would go nuts if personal tax for top bracket jumped 20%
and the average american had a good education at little to no cost including state college, had high speed internet, cell phones, health coverage, good infrastructure, etc.

instead we have kids going to school without meals and having to attend class in a converted janitor closet and study from textbooks 40 years old like they do im poor inner city schools. Forget music programs or afterschool programs or funded sports teams. Some communites make kids pay to ride the bus now even. In the last 30 years california has built 0 universites and something like 30 prisons. Healthcare is good but costs are making it a luxury item. Massachusetts actually requires everyone to have healthcare through their job or their program and the cost is reasonable, other states should offer plans, group insurance rates can cut costs a lot, 50 or 75% per month.
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arundhatiroyfan Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
56. Great post! n/t.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
79. Wish I could
recommend this post.

Great job.

I just love this post!
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. If Buffet actually pays less in income taxes than his secretary
and thinks it is not right, then he could ALWAYS, AT ANY TIME stop taking the deductions that give him such a huge tax benefit.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Gates made his money with temp workers
that he screwed out of health care, sick leave, vacation, and every other benefit the regular Microsoft workers made. Oh yeah, he's a greedy fuck too.

Warren Buffett lets his granddaughter live in poverty because she wants to be an artist and he doesn't think it's good for people to be given anything. Greedy fuck.

Don't kid yourself. You don't get the kind of money they have without being absolutely ruthless.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. Their first facility parking lot guys options made him a millionaire
Secretaries and low level employees who purchased stock options, the lot guy probably didn't make much for opening the gate if yo had an ID.

The growth of the company through the 90s and many splits, employees at the lowest levels on up all made millions. Microsoft made a lot of people wealthy, and its been run well and isn't operating on debt it has probably a couple hundred billion in its cash reserve.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Microsoft Settles $97 million Temp Worker Lawsuit
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. They were denied stock options as temps, whats next the fundamental right for company cars
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. "avoid paying pensions, health care and stock options" n/t
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. Have you sued for your discount stock yet?Temps employed by temp agency not gates
moron
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #63
78. Nice way to avoid the point
You won't win many friends around here sticking up for corporations who screw their employees out of health care and retirement.
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lifesbeautifulmagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. yes, I agree with what you are saying in principle
but Microsoft employees that have been strung along for years working a "contract" basis, or have seen their jobs outsourced because labor is cheaper somewhere else might disagree with you.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. EXCEPT if much of the wealth was created by taking jobs
from American workers, thereby denying them a chance to create any wealth for themselves.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway have been creators of jobs.
BH was a nearly bankrupt textile manufacturer when Buffett started buying it out, and Microsoft is one of the mainstays of the Seattle economy. These guys have been net job creators. I disagree with many of Gates' employment policies, but it's hard to argue that these guys have been leading the charge when it comes to shipping jobs overseas.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Besides, I made plenty of money in the 90s keeping Windows afloat ;-)
If it wasn't for Bill Gates, I might have had to become expert in CP/M instead. Ugh.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Microsoft probably destroyed more software jobs by forcing many competitors out of business.
Nowadays, Microsoft is offshoring quite heavily. With the U.S. market declining due to a faltering economy, and the people waking up to how shoddy Microsoft products are, especially since Vista came out, and companies and governments finally waking up to the fact that they can get much better software for far less cost by moving to open source products like Linux, and Open Office, Microsoft is cutting costs the way other companies have been: sending jobs offshore to get cheaper labor.

The software industry is a mere shell of what it was in the 1990's. Part of this problem is due to the predatory practices used by Microsoft over the years.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. The'll reap what they sow.
I work in quality assurance for software. It's a growth industry in the United States because the quality of software being written by outsourced developers is SO UNIMAGINABLY TERRIBLE that where you'd previously be able to assign three or four QA people to a particular project, you've now got to assign fifteen. Million monkey coding has its limitations, and a lot of people are starting to figure that out.


The software industry is a mere shell of what it was in the 1990's. Part of this problem is due to the predatory practices used by Microsoft over the years.


I see strong parallels between what's happening now in the software industry and what happened in the US automobile industry between the 30s and the 60s. I think such consolidation is inevitable. If it hadn't been Microsoft, it would have been someone else. I'm not sure what steps anyone could take to prevent such an outcome. I've got first-hand experience working for an innovative company that was eventually overpowered by a larger competitor, flush with r&d and marketing money. Short of a wholesale breakup of the largest companies, there's really not a lot you can do. Again, if it hadn't been MS it would've been Sun or somebody else.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Actually, you hit the nail on the head.
(snip)
.......
"Short of a wholesale breakup of the largest companies, there's really not a lot you can do."
.......

This is precisely what needs to be done in the financial sector as well as others such as the media. The greater the consolidation, the greater the ability to do mischief, and when problems arise, the results can be catastrophic, as with this "liquidity" collapse.

Better than have one troubled company buying another troubled company with our tax dollars, the companies involved in the scam should be broken up under revitalized antitrust laws and spun off into independent entities, perhaps based on function. The scams succeeded, at least initially, because vertical and horizontal integration in the financial sector prevented one entity from providing oversight to another entity.

Since the scams required collusion of different parties, and since the perpetrators were all part of the same company, there was no incentive anywhere to put the brakes on the fraud. It was essentially a mob mentality that encouraged the perpetrators to act in the extreme. Everyone was going along, and the "guilt" was spread so thin that it was essentially nonexistent.


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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
73. Our education does suck, personal users options include secure open source software thats free
And Software improvements over last decade have made companies so much more efficient and profitable. Imagine how much more our food prices would be right now if software did not optimize trucking routes, warehouses, and stores inventory replenishment systems, etc. and software that aided in the design and improvement of cooling technology to keep food from spoiling, etc.

A more practical example, look at improvement in video games, software advancea at processor level allow for the speed and complexity seen in PS3 vs PS1.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
42. Microsoft responsible for 14.7 jobs worldwide, 2007 tax revenue 203B US 517B total
yeah, they don't create jobs
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. Gates and Buffett are also the first to admit that they, as the richest guys on the planet
Edited on Thu Oct-02-08 11:58 AM by Sebastian Doyle
Pay FAR too little in taxes, and if you asked them right now would probably admit that those in their (un)tax (ed) bracket are the ones LEAST needing any sort of financial "bailout".
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Is there any law stopping them from paying more taxes if they wanted to?
Edited on Thu Oct-02-08 12:30 PM by shadowknows69
I mean if they're all torn up about it and everything. You know tell the government to give us a little break and they'll make up the difference?
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. HA!
:spray: That's funny! I'm sure they'll both rush to write out that extra check for the government. :silly: Probably trip over each other, in fact. :rofl:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, but you see they're giving their wealth to people in the third world...
...instead of hard workin' Murkins who are obviously the only ones deserving of it. Or so I gather from the responses to this and many other threads.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. Besides these two, however, philanthrophy is in short supply.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/18/opinion/op-easterbrook18

Microsoft mogul Paul Allen, net worth $16 billion, gave away $53 million in 2006, according to Slate — one-third of 1% of his fortune. Software magnate Lawrence Ellison, net worth $20 billion, gave away $100 million — half of 1%. Pierre Omidyar, founder of EBay, net worth $7.7 billion, gave away $67 million — less than 1%. Nike tycoon Philip Knight, net worth $7.9 billion, gave away $105 million — slightly more than 1%.

(snip)

Why do the super-rich hoard? Certainly not because they need money to spend. As economist Christopher Carroll of Johns Hopkins University points out in an upcoming paper, the super-rich save far more than they could ever spend, even with Dionysian indulgence. Gates' fortune must throw off, even by conservative estimations, about $6 million a day after taxes. You couldn't spend $6 million every day of your life even if you did nothing all day long but buy original art and waterfront real estate. The fortunes of Allen, Knight and others mentioned here throw off at least $1 million a day after taxes. Nobody can spend $1 million every day.

Carroll speculates that the super-rich won't give away money they know they will never use for two reasons: because they love money, and because extreme wealth confers power. We know already that people who give their lives over to loving money surrender their humanity in the process. As for clout, Carroll quotes Howard Hughes: "Money is the measuring rod of power." That $53 billion ensures Gates will be treated with awe wherever he goes. If he gave away 78% of his wealth like Carnegie did, he might be universally admired, but he would no longer be treated with the same degree of fawning reverence. He might even, someday, find himself in the same room with someone who has more money!

Unconscionable and disgusting. You want the source of nearly ALL the world's problems, start with the growing wealth inequity.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I hate to defend Paul Allen on anything...
...but I think your figures are wrong. I believe he's given away about a billion out of an estimated fortune of some 15-16 billion. So it's more like 7%.

I enjoyed working for Paul Allen. His employees were treated well. But the man wastes money like it's going out of style.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. You're Absolutely Correct.
:thumbsup:
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2speak Donating Member (382 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. I just watched him on npr
and he said quote "there are times to build up your money and there are times to be greedy". Double speak is all they know how to do.
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. Many economically ignorant people, and there are many who regularly post on this board, believe...
that wealth is like matter -- that it can be neither created nor destroyed. They act like it's a zero sum game where there is a finite amount of wealth and if I have too much it keeps you from having enough. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. Buffett made his fortune on integrity and common sense
The reason he was so successful was because he didn't allow greed to get the best of him, and focused on the long term.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. Capitalism is built on the premise that people are fucking self-interested.
Otherwise, there would be even less justification than currently is out there for having such gross income and wealth disparity.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. No, it just means that you're greedy. n/t
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. Berkshire Hathaway and M$ are not even comparable.
BH was built on long term investment or acquisition in/of good companies that were underfunded, or that had a good product but were mismanaged, or some similar deficit. IOW, they look at good companies with some flaw(s) and fix them so that they can grow to profitability.

M$ was founded on theft and fraud and has grown through deception and suppression of competition. The antithesis of BH.

BH makes it's $$ by making good companies better, M$ makes it's $$ by blocking innovation, supressing competition and generally making things worse.

So Warren Buffet likes Bill Gates III and, in true Buffet style, found it more cost effective to combine with an existing foundation than starting his own and duplicating effort.

One could even use these companies as models of traditional American enterprise (BH) vs. New World Order capitalism.



Gates did say he planned to limit his inheritance to 5%, currently about $2B.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. Gates Foundation....doing a lot to help? Help who?
Didn't get the memo, did you??

Dark Cloud Over Good Works of Gates Foundation
The world's largest philanthropy pours money into investments that are hurting many of the people its grants aim to help.


EBOCHA, Nigeria - Justice Eta, 14 months old, held out his tiny thumb.

An ink spot certified that he had been immunized against polio and measles, thanks to a vaccination drive supported by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

But polio is not the only threat Justice faces. Almost since birth, he has had respiratory trouble. His neighbors call it "the cough." People blame fumes and soot spewing from flames that tower 300 feet into the air over a nearby oil plant. It is owned by the Italian petroleum giant Eni, whose investors include the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

Justice squirmed in his mother's arms. His face was beaded with sweat caused either by illness or by heat from the flames that illuminate Ebocha day and night. Ebocha means "city of lights."

The makeshift clinic at a church where Justice Eta was vaccinated and the flares spewing over Ebocha represent a head-on conflict for the Gates Foundation. In a contradiction between its grants and its endowment holdings, a Times investigation has found, the foundation reaps vast financial gains every year from investments that contravene its good works.

In Ebocha, where Justice lives, Dr. Elekwachi Okey, a local physician, says hundreds of flares at oil plants in the Niger Delta have caused an epidemic of bronchitis in adults, and asthma and blurred vision in children. No definitive studies have documented the health effects, but many of the 250 toxic chemicals in the fumes and soot have long been linked to respiratory disease and cancer.

"We're all smokers here," Okey said, "but not with cigarettes."

The oil plants in the region surrounding Ebocha find it cheaper to burn nearly 1 billion cubic feet of gas each day and contribute to global warming than to sell it. They deny the flaring causes sickness. Under pressure from activists, however, Nigeria's high court set a deadline to end flaring by May 2007. The gases would be injected back underground, or trucked and piped out for sale. But authorities expect the flares to burn for years beyond the deadline.

The Gates Foundation has poured $218 million into polio and measles immunization and research worldwide, including in the Niger Delta. At the same time that the foundation is funding inoculations to protect health, The Times found, it has invested $423 million in Eni, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp. and Total of France — the companies responsible for most of the flares blanketing the delta with pollution, beyond anything permitted in the United States or Europe.

Indeed, local leaders blame oil development for fostering some of the very afflictions that the foundation combats.

Oil workers, for example, and soldiers protecting them are a magnet for prostitution, contributing to a surge in HIV and teenage pregnancy, both targets in the Gates Foundation's efforts to ease the ills of society, especially among the poor. Oil bore holes fill with stagnant water, which is ideal for mosquitoes that spread malaria, one of the diseases the foundation is fighting.

Investigators for Dr. Nonyenim Solomon Enyidah, health commissioner for Rivers State, where Ebocha is located, cite an oil spill clogging rivers as a cause of cholera, another scourge the foundation is battling. The rivers, Enyidah said, "became breeding grounds for all kinds of waterborne diseases."

The bright, sooty gas flares — which contain toxic byproducts such as benzene, mercury and chromium — lower immunity, Enyidah said, and make children such as Justice Eta more susceptible to polio and measles — the diseases that the Gates Foundation has helped to inoculate him against.

Investing for profit

At the end of 2005, the Gates Foundation endowment stood at $35 billion, making it the largest in the world. Then in June 2006, Warren E. Buffett, the world's second-richest man after Bill Gates, pledged to add about $31 billion in installments from his personal fortune. Not counting tens of billions of dollars more that Gates himself has promised, the total is higher than the gross domestic products of 70% of the world's nations.

Like most philanthropies, the Gates Foundation gives away at least 5% of its worth every year, to avoid paying most taxes. In 2005, it granted nearly $1.4 billion. It awards grants mainly in support of global health initiatives, for efforts to improve public education in the United States, and for social welfare programs in the Pacific Northwest.

It invests the other 95% of its worth. This endowment is managed by Bill Gates Investments, which handles Gates' personal fortune. Monica Harrington, a senior policy officer at the foundation, said the investment managers had one goal: returns "that will allow for the continued funding of foundation programs and grant making." Bill and Melinda Gates require the managers to keep a highly diversified portfolio, but make no specific directives.

By comparing these investments with information from for-profit services that analyze corporate behavior for mutual funds, pension managers, government agencies and other foundations, The Times found that the Gates Foundation has holdings in many companies that have failed tests of social responsibility because of environmental lapses, employment discrimination, disregard for worker rights, or unethical practices.

One of these investment rating services, Calvert Group Ltd., for example, endorses 52 of the largest 100 U.S. companies based on market capitalization, but flags the other 48 for transgressions against social responsibility. Microsoft Corp., which Bill Gates leads as board chairman, is rated highly for its overall business practices, despite its history of antitrust problems.

In addition, The Times found the Gates Foundation endowment had major holdings in:

Companies ranked among the worst U.S. and Canadian polluters, including ConocoPhillips, Dow Chemical Co. and Tyco International Ltd.

Many of the world's other major polluters, including companies that own an oil refinery and one that owns a paper mill, which a study shows sicken children while the foundation tries to save their parents from AIDS.

Pharmaceutical companies that price drugs beyond the reach of AIDS patients the foundation is trying to treat.

Using the most recent data available, a Times tally showed that hundreds of Gates Foundation investments — totaling at least $8.7 billion, or 41% of its assets, not including U.S. and foreign government securities — have been in companies that countered the foundation's charitable goals or socially concerned philosophy.

This is "the dirty secret" of many large philanthropies, said Paul Hawken, an expert on socially beneficial investing who directs the Natural Capital Institute, an investment research group. "Foundations donate to groups trying to heal the future," Hawken said in an interview, "but with their investments, they steal from the future."

Moreover, investing in destructive or unethical companies is not what is most harmful, said Hawken and other experts, including Douglas Bauer, senior vice president of Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors, a nonprofit group that assists foundations on policy and ethical issues. Worse, they said, is investing purely for profit, without attempting to improve a company's way of operating.

Such blind-eye investing, they noted, rewards bad behavior.

At the Gates Foundation, blind-eye investing has been enforced by a firewall it has erected between its grant-making side and its investing side. The goals of the former are not allowed to interfere with the investments of the latter.

The foundation recently announced a plan to institutionalize that firewall by moving its assets into a separate organization, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation Trust. Its two trustees will be Bill and Melinda Gates. The trust will invest to increase the endowment, while the foundation gives grants.

"We've been operating under these principles for many years," said Harrington, the foundation policy officer. "But having an official separation makes it even more clear."

With the exception of tobacco companies, asset managers do not avoid investments in firms whose activities conflict with the foundation's mission to do good.

"Because we want to maintain a focus on the programmatic work," Harrington said in a written response to Times questions, "we have made it a policy to not comment on individual investment holdings."

Finally, the foundation does not invest any portion of its endowment in companies specifically because they advance its philanthropic mission.

Much of the rest of philanthropy, however, is beginning to address contradictions between making grants to improve the world and making investments that harm it. According to recent surveys, many foundations, including some of the nation's largest, have adopted at least basic policies to invest in ways that support their missions.

Major foundations that make social justice, corporate governance and environmental stewardship key considerations in their investment strategies include the Ford Foundation, worth $11.6 billion, the nation's second-largest private philanthropy; the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; the Rockefeller Foundation; and the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation.

Moreover, nearly one-third of foundations participate directly in shareholder initiatives, voting their proxies to influence corporate behavior. A few have become shareholder activists. In recent years, for instance, the Nathan Cummings Foundation, with an endowment of $481 million, has sponsored proxies to force corporations to address environmental sustainability and political transparency.

Harrington said the Gates Foundation's investment managers vote proxies, but declined to give any specifics. The foundation would not make its chief investment manager, Michael Larson, available for an interview. In May, Harrington told the Chronicle of Philanthropy that the Gates Foundation did not get involved in proxy issues.

At the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, on the other hand, Michael J. Smith, its chief investment officer, said voting proxies to improve corporate behavior had become a fiduciary necessity.

"Companies that have good governance are generally well-managed," he said, "and have a good record of profitably."

Even the relatively tiny Needmor Fund, with a $27-million endowment, screens its investments to bar companies with poor environmental records, antagonism to worker rights or tolerance for repressive governments.

Leadership, however, is open to the Gates Foundation. It has unique power to move the debate, Bauer said. If Gates adopted mission-related investing, Bauer, of Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors, said in an interview, the shift in the world of philanthropy would be "seismic."

The foundation did not respond to written questions about whether it might change its investment policies.

Life in 'Cancer Valley'

At a clinic in Isipingo, a suburb of the South African port city of Durban where the HIV infection rate is as high as 40%, Thembeka Dube, 20, was getting a checkup.

Dube had volunteered for tests of a vaginal gel that researchers hope will be shown to protect against HIV. The tests are part of a study conducted by the New York-based Population Council, and funded by a $20-million grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

Dube's boyfriend won't use condoms. She hoped the tests would show she could use the microbicidal gel, called Carraguard, and stop worrying about AIDS.

Research into prophylactics such as Carraguard can fight AIDS by empowering women, Bill Gates told the International AIDS Conference in Toronto in August. "Whether the woman is a faithful married mother of small children, or a sex worker trying to scrape out a living in a slum ... " he said, "a woman should never need her partner's permission to save her own life."

Two days before Gates spoke, Kyrone Smith was born only a few kilometers from the Isipingo clinic. At the same time the Gates Foundation was trying to help Dube, it owned a stake in companies that appeared to be hurting Kyrone.

At six weeks, his lungs began to fail. Kyrone struggled to cry, but he was so weak that no sound came out — just husky, labored breaths.

His mother, Renee Smith, 26, rushed him to a hospital, where he was given oxygen. She feared it would be the first of many hospital visits. Smith knew from experience.

"My son Teiago was in and out of hospital since the age of 3," she said. "He couldn't breathe nicely.... There are so many children in this area who have the same problems."

Two of the area's worst industrial polluters — a Mondi paper mill and a giant Sapref oil refinery — squat among the homes near Isipingo like sleepy grey dragons, exhaling chemical vapors day and night.

The Sapref plant, which has had two dozen significant spills, flares, pipeline ruptures and explosions since 1998, and the Mondi plant together pump thousands of tons of putrid-smelling chemicals into the air annually, according to their own monitoring.

In 2002, a study found that more than half of the children at a school in nearby Merebank suffered asthma — one of the highest rates in scientific literature. A second study, published last year, found serious respiratory problems throughout the region: More than half of children aged 2 to 5 had asthma, largely attributed to sulfur dioxide and other industrial pollutants. Much of it was produced by companies in which the Gates Foundation was invested.

Asthma was not the only danger. Isipingo is in what environmental activists call "Cancer Valley." Emissions of benzene, dioxins and other carcinogens were "among the highest levels found in any comparable location the world," said Stuart Batterman at the University of Michigan, a coauthor of both studies.

The Gates Foundation is a major shareholder in the companies that own both of the polluting plants. As of September, the foundation held $295 million worth of stock in BP, a co-owner of Sapref. As of 2005, it held $35 million worth of stock in Royal Dutch Shell, Sapref's other owner. The foundation also held a $39-million investment in Anglo American, which owns the Mondi paper mill.

The foundation has held large investments in all three companies since at least 2002. Since then, the worth of BP shares has shot up by about 83%, Royal Dutch Shell shares by 77% and Anglo American shares about 255%. Dividends have padded the foundation's assets by additional millions of dollars.

The foundation has gotten much more in financial gains from its investments in the polluters than it has given to the Durban microbicide study to fight AIDS.

Sapref said it had cut sulfur dioxide emissions by two-thirds since 1997 and spent more than $64 million over 11 years on environmental initiatives. It said lead in its gasoline and sulfur in its diesel fuel were reduced a year ago. Plant officials said: "Sapref does not accept any responsibility for any health issues in South Durban."

Mondi said that its Merebank paper mill had cut "chemical oxygen demand," a key pollutant, in 2005, and that it was cutting its sulfur dioxide emissions. But by the company's own estimate, the mill still releases about three times the combined amount of sulfur dioxide produced by Mondi plants in five other nations, and the other plants operate at nearly six times the capacity. Merebank uses a coal-fired power plant, while the others burn cleaner fuel.

Just as the Gates Foundation investments in Mondi, BP and Royal Dutch Shell have been very profitable, so too have its holdings in the top 100 polluters in the United States, as rated by the University of Massachusetts, and the top 50 polluters in Canada, as rated by the trade publication Corporate Knights, using methods based on those developed by the university.

According to the foundation's 2005 figures, it held a $1.4-billion stake in 69 of those firms. They included blue chips, such as Chevron Corp. and Ford Motor Co., as well as lesser-known companies such as Lyondell Chemical Co. and Ameren Corp.

At the same time, the foundation held a $2.9-billion stake in firms ranked by the investment rating services as among the worst environmental stewards, including Dominion Resources Inc. and El Paso Corp.

Without double-counting companies flagged by both the University of Massachusetts and the rating services, the combination totals an investment of about $3.3 billion.

The Gates Foundation did not respond to written questions about its investments in companies that were high polluters or those rated as poor environmental stewards.

Drugs out of reach

Nearly every morning, a 56-year-old retired soldier named Felix makes a short trek from his house on the outskirts of Lagos, Nigeria, to a factory to purchase a 40-cent block of ice.

Felix has a pressing, private reason to get the ice: He needs it to keep his medicine from melting.

Two years ago, Felix's wife died from AIDS, and he learned he was HIV-positive.

He told his six children, now 16 to 24 years old, but no one else. He was afraid of the stigma of HIV. He agreed to be interviewed only if he was identified by his first name alone. "I thought the world had come to an end for me," Felix said. "Everyone believes that once you have it, you're a living ghost."

He took antiretroviral drugs and felt better. But his treatment was interrupted frequently because he could not afford the cost: $62 a month. His pension as a former staff sergeant was $115 a month, and the money came sporadically.

Worse, his body soon stopped responding to the drugs. His kidneys began to fail, and his count of immune cells crucial to fight off infections plummeted.

In May, Felix began taking Kaletra, a second-line AIDS drug — needed when the first round of treatments fail.

His health rebounded, but it came at a cost.

Gel capsules of Kaletra melt in Nigeria's sweltering climate, where temperatures often top 100 degrees. Felix kept his Kaletra in a small chest filled with ice.

Each day, he had to go get more ice. And each day, he had to take Kaletra precisely at 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. These things made it difficult for him to work, even at odd jobs.

A new version of Kaletra does not require refrigeration. But his physician, Dr. T.M. Balogun, who helps run the AIDS program at Lagos State University Teaching Hospital, told him not to get his hopes up.

The hospital is helped by the Nigerian government, which gets money from the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. The fund has been awarded $651 million by the Gates Foundation. Yet the hospital does not offer the new Kaletra. It is too expensive.

In August, private pharmacists said they could sell it for $246 a month. But that was far out of Felix's reach.

Kaletra is made by Abbott Laboratories. As of this September, the Gates Foundation held $169 million in Abbott stock. In 2005, the foundation held nearly $1.5 billion worth of stock in drug companies whose practices have been widely criticized as restricting the flow of key medicines to poor people in developing nations.

On average, shares in those companies have increased in value about 54% since 2002. Investments in Abbott and other drug makers probably have gained the foundation hundreds of millions of dollars.

Drug makers say they need price protection for research and development. "Our global needs and global systems are in conflict," Miles White, Abbott's chief executive, wrote in the Financial Times last year. "This threatens to harm one goal, innovation, in the name of another, access to medicine."

In 1994, however, the drug makers, with other research-intensive businesses, lobbied hard and successfully for the international Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, which made it harder to move from costly brand-name drugs to cheap generics. The agreement protected new-drug monopolies for 20 years or more.

This meant no low-priced generic for Kaletra. The pact locked in Abbott as its sole supplier, and Abbott set prices for the world.

Under pressure from activists, Abbott and other companies cut prices for key AIDS drugs in poorer nations. In Guatemala and Thailand, the new Kaletra costs $2,200 per patient per year, plus taxes and fees — a fraction of the more than $8,000 it costs in the United States. In poorer Nigeria, the official price was $500 a year.

But this was still too costly for most patients, including Felix.

The industry's approach "has the effect of making medicines available only to a narrow spectrum of a rich elite in a developing country," said Brook Baker, an intellectual property expert at Northeastern University.

He called it "pharmaceutical apartheid."

Drug companies say critics overlook billions of dollars worth of drugs they donate to developing nations. Abbott says it has given AIDS drugs to 25,000 patients, along with millions of test kits, and has underwritten a major project to improve AIDS services in Tanzania.

In emergencies, critics welcome donated drugs. The problem, they say, is that donations scare away generic suppliers. Donations, said Ellen 't Hoen, who directs a drug-access program for Doctors Without Borders, "remove the prospect of any stable supply."

And when the free drugs are gone, patients die.

Most medicines are reliably profitable. In the most recent quarter, Abbott posted a gross profit margin of 59% of sales, and recently paid its 331st consecutive quarterly dividend. A congressional analysis shows that during the first six months of 2006, the 10 largest drug companies earned $39.8 billion in profits.

The Gates Foundation's top priority is stopping AIDS, Bill Gates told the International AIDS Conference in August. Since its inception, the foundation has donated more than $2 billion to fight the disease.

The foundation did not respond to written questions about the problems of patients who cannot obtain needed AIDS drugs due to pharmaceutical company policies.

Meanwhile, the foundation holds its grant recipients to a far higher standard than the drug companies on which it bets large portions of its endowment. Its grant form says it expects recipients "to exercise their intellectual property rights in a manner consistent with the stated goals of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to promote the ... availability of inventions for public benefit in developing countries at reasonable cost."

Some critics say the foundation's failure to use its own investments "to promote ... public benefit in developing countries at reasonable cost" might trace back to the source of most of its money — Microsoft — which Bill Gates serves as chairman.

Microsoft monopolies in computer operating systems and businesssoftware depend upon the same intellectual-property and trade-law approaches favored by drug companies.

"The Gates Foundation is in a position to change the dynamic, to make sure that drugs get first to the places they are most needed," said Daniel Berman, deputy director in South Africa for Doctors Without Borders. "But it conflicts with the interests of Microsoft."

In response to written questions, Harrington, the Gates Foundation policy officer, said the foundation tried to guarantee that grantee discoveries made in partnership with for-profit companies trickled down to people in developing nations.

"The foundation's goal is to help ensure that new scientific knowledge is broadly shared ... and that lifesaving health advances are created and made available and affordable to those most in need," she said. "We also recognize that private industry needs adequate incentives to develop new drugs."

The foundation's pharmaceutical company investments, Harrington said, "are completely separate from what's being done on the programmatic side to help spur the development and delivery of drugs/vaccines."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0107-03.htm

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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. Evil Gates harmful goal to stop aids,avg. lifespan Zimbabwe only down to 38 years and falling
give me a break

How about pushing government to choose Sustainable clean energy over drilling and maybe save a few lives yourself. Is it his job to not only cure disease and hunger but make sure every mutual fund in a 36 billion dollar portfolio is screened and remove all energy, pharma, pulp and paper, plus any company that has been listed on pollution lists.

Hes trying to help stop Aids from ravaging africa and doing something to help the worlds poorest people. He isn't superman, but its hard to live up to same standards as small charities when yours has 3 times the 2nd largest. If the fund was for profit investing, lets say it had 10 billion spread of the top 10 largest energy companies like dirty coal companies in china, but 36 billion in a mutual fund that balances the assets for low risk long term growth is going to have a some in energy, 6 of the top 10 global 100 companies are oil refineries.

Do you drive a car or use hot water, your responsible for the smoke that killed that baby, ane you didn't just spend 200 million vaccinating children from a disease that could cripple them and eventually kill them.

Why should he be charitable, nothing satisfies people.

American poverty is livin in a project with a HDTV and Jordans that match your outfit in 6 colors. People don't know what poverty is, in india beggars have masters and if they feel like it will help people feel more sorry for you and give you more money might chop your legs or arms off, blind you.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
57. Bill Gates' net worth: 56 billion. Zimbabwe GDP: 25 billion. Gates could BUY Zimbabwe & not cramp
his lifestyle or fortune one bit.

Sorry if I'm not impressed he's funding biotech & pharmaceuticals for starving, unemployed people.

After they get the drugs, they'll still be starving & unemployed.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #57
75. LOL, And being Alaskan makes you an energy expert , SEC law says your wrong again
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
62. What does poverty in the U.S.
Have to do with Indian beggars?

Gates "is" helping in some ways, but isn't the angel you portray. What's in it for him?

BTW.....Welcome to DU.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
88. Could you please be little more of an ignorant racists? Please? n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
41. Gates' charity benefits Gates; that's what foundations are designed to do.
Foundations control huge chunks of capital, out of reach of the taxman. With that capital, boards (picked by the founder or his cronies & well-paid) make policy, direct investment, control opinions & information, & buy influence.

Gates didn't get where he is by being a do-gooder. Neither did Buffett, or Soros, or Carnegie, or any of those SOBs. To think so is naive.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Anyone can email the foundation to fund legit projects, perhaps head removal from butt is legit
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Yes, "anyone" can. But "anyone" will not get funded.
Edited on Fri Oct-03-08 02:17 AM by Hannah Bell
The big money goes to projects that benefit Gates.

Did you know, for example, about the foundation's ties to Monsanto, & the Monsanto exec on his top staff?



"Rob Horsch Says Goodbye to Monsanto

In November 2006, after 25 years of service with Monsanto and its predecessor companies, Rob Horsch will join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation as senior program officer..."

http://www.monsanto.com/features/rob_horsch.asp
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. And his personal investments in biotech?
Edited on Fri Oct-03-08 02:33 AM by Hannah Bell
And do you know about Bill's personal investments in biotech?

"Gates does make his own investment decisions in biotech. Says he: "I've always been interested in science... I'm an investor in a number of biotech companies...I serve on the board of ICOS . I continue to make a number of investments in this area." At various points Gates has owned stock in other biotechs--including PathoGenesis, Targeted Genetics, and Chiroscience--but he is out of all those stocks now. He recently bought a stake in a company called Advanced Medicine, a private biotech firm."


http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:SzIuFGsDoloJ:money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1999/03/15/256491/index.htm+%22bill+gAtes%22+investment+biotech&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

If you start looking into Gates' donations, you'll begin to see the synergy between his public donations & his private investments...& those of his friends. Like his interest in 3rd world vaccination & drug testing - & his pharmaceutical investments.

There are some PR "feel-good" community donations that have nothing to do with the Gates' empire, but they're not a big part of his gifting.

People take PR at face value. They shouldn't.

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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. He cares so little he takes time to fly NYC cabbies son with other kids to his house for dinner
and takes the time to get to know the kids, showed them his car collection and they just talked about what the kids were interested in studying. He sounded really positive about the experience and felt really lucky to get the scholarship because it was so comprehensive and covered everything, even for him to visit his family and all his books, a laptop. Allowed him to not have to work to pay for all the stuff on top of tuition that he would have needed to do.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Link? And how often does he have the sons of cabbies & coal miners over to the manse?
And out of his 56 billion net worth, how much does it cost him?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. In 2004, Gates' income simply from MS-related salary & dividends = over 3 billion.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/21/technology/gates_pay/index.htm

That's not mentioning his own personal investments. How much IS interest on 56 billion? 5% would be 2.8 billion, & I bet he does better than that.

So, assuming Bill Gates makes around 6 billion/yr in salary, dividends & investments, he makes more than every person & business in the countries below 6,000 million on this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

And there are thousands of SOBs just like Gates.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. His salary 900k, He has to move it to fund in 2 or 3 billion Palin, SEC ring a bell
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. 1 person got funding for a computer center for kids in baltimore and a friend got tuition from them
have you applied for something and got denied or something, its not like his wealth was created selling raw materials to hitler illegally like the Bush family.

He earned his wealth legitly and is trying to do some good, if you can't say, wish more CEOs did this with their wealth instead of gettintg tax dollars from the US government for your non profit Christian broadcast network like evangelist Pat Robertson did, and use it to finance a few diamond mines in Zaire under a dictator.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yes, the computer centers are fully loaded with MS software, creating new MS users.
Edited on Fri Oct-03-08 03:00 AM by Hannah Bell
And cost him next to nothing, in reality, though publicized at market price.

The tuition - I've worked as a grantwriter & one of the restrictions for Gates, as well as most foundations, is: no grants to individuals. But I'll take your word for it.

Now, compare the dollar value of same to his grants involving biotech & pharma - among his personal interests.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Why they hate our kind hearts too
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. His holdings don't seem troublesome
BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY (BRK-A) $441,410 4,050
CANADIAN NAT. Rail (CNI-NYSE) $1,387,530 31,434,745
FISHER COMMUN. (FSCI-NASDAQ) $22,147 455,700
FOUR SEASONS HOTEL (FS-NYSE) $57,483 715,850
GRUPO TELEVISA SA (TV-NYSE) $579,288 19,439,200
OTTER TAIL CORP (OTTR-NASDAQ) $87,535 2,556,499
PNM RES INC (PNM-NYSE) $210,581 6,519,550
REPUBLIC SVCS INC (RSG-NYSE) $756,494 27,192,451
SIX FLAGS INC (PKS-NYSE) $61,366 10,210,600
WESTERN ASSET
CLAYMORE US TR $26,425 2,270,200
WESTERN ASSET/CLYMRE
US TR INF (WIA-NYSE) $48,872 4,113,800
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. he holds more than that.
Edited on Fri Oct-03-08 04:15 AM by Hannah Bell
And so does his foundAtion.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
48. I'm glad that some of the wealthy 'give back', but I always figured that that
was their conscience 'catching up with them'.

Also, there is a whole lot of information/literature out there about 'giving'.

Just ONE aspect that's talked about (and talked up) is giving AND HAVING INFLUENCE B/C OF YOUR GIFT/POTENTIAL GIFT vs. just giving for it's own sake and the giver has nothing to gain for him/herself.

Not EVERYONE who gives 'big bucks' generously is taking advantage of the having "influence" part, but I believe it's definitely 'trending' that way.....which is not a 'good' thing, imo.

M_Y_H
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
64. Creating wealth? Give me a fucking break.

They take the value added created by the sweat and effort of others and call it their own. That is thievery, that is capitalism.

There is no taming this beast, it is insatiable, that is the lesson of the decline and fall of the New Deal.
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. I bet some of the 203 billion taxes paid for your short bus, your argument has no factual support
Opinion are like aholes
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. Oh, really?

All wealth is the result of work, what, do you think these guys have the Philospher's Stone or something?

What have 'they' actually made, something tangiable that people can use?
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The 12th Guru Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. 2007 IDC study showed Microsoft on average turns $1 in to $7 revenue
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
65. No, but hoarding it does. nt
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
69. If buying a 700k house when you can only afford a 200k house isn't greed
we are using different dictionaries.

I don't think Gates or Buffett are greedy. Nor are many other of the richest people. I think they are both driven by the challenge of it, more than the profit in what they do.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
70. So let them create a reasonable amount of wealth for themselves
And leave the rest of the field open for others to do the same.

It is greed. They grab all the apples on the tree because they are "more successful" and quicker and tougher and meaner, rather than taking their share and leaving the rest for others.

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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
71. no, it doesn't
but taking wealth off the sweat of undercompensated workers, whether they be here or abroad, is. There are some ethical wealthy people and some despicable leeches. It is up to them to decide which category the fall into.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
76. You mean "aggregate" not "create". n/t
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. The inability to distinguish between "your" and "you're" doesn't mean yore illiterate, either.
(But it does cause some suspicion.)
:dunce:


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
89. Most "foundations" are scams used to protect their wealth from the taxman.
It's tax evasion disguised as charity.
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