Did anyone really think they would Not steal our 401Ks

Most folks here have lost some thing. 30% 40% maybe even 50% of what they have scrimped and saved while struggling to make ends meet in this “Anti-Working Class Economy” Reagenomics and Trickle Down Theory has brought us.

But tell me honestly – Didn’t you ever suspect these crooked SOBs would find a way to take your money and put you in the “Poor House” anyway?

and IRA's from the get go...

And yes, in retrospect it was so they get get at all that suckers' money, which they are now stealing.

The usual Bushie Modus Operandi. They pose as the doctor coming to save you, butthey are going to rob and murder you while pretending to work on you so the REAKLparamedics will neevr hear your screams untilit's too late.

but the end result is even worse

They tried their best to tie up Social Security in the market so they could steal it at the same time.

ENRON was the trial run.

I personally experienced trying to get my money out in 1999. Finally did though, thank my lucky little stars!

...oh there was that little matter of contractual fiduciary responsibility

Check out this video commentary link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ubseconomics

They pushed their 401K program with an incredible hard-sell. They made it sound as though you'd die in elevator later that day if you didn't immediately start putting a chunk of your measly paycheck into their care.

Well, circumstances made it impossible for me to buy into a 401K, since we were barely making it check-to-check in the first place.

In addition, it sounded like a scam to me, for no specific reason that I can now recall.

Still, I'm glad not to have lost a chunk of whatever tiny contributions I'd have been able to make, had I gone that route.

Mind you, I'd only been participating for 18 months. I had about $3500 socked away, total. At about 12 months in, I started going to Motley Fool and Yahoo finance and comparing the tools these *free* sites were offering me, compared to the tools the one I was paying for used; then looked at the returns all their funds were offering and comparing them to popular funds they weren't offering and figured I was dealing with bush league people and wanted out. The next morning, I went to speak to our comptroller and told him I was freaked out by red flags and would take the tax hit to pull out. Unfortunately, I let him talk me into keeping it put ("free money if our owner contributes").

Six months later, the guy running the service was arrested for fraud.

everything?

About pulling out.

http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2008/9/9/stokes_plea_deal_official

I was going to say, it's pretty hard to lose EVERYTHING when you're invested in mutual funds. It's pretty simple when it's a thief.

Is that guy doing hard time?

This stock market fear mongering is getting out of control. This is only an issue for people who are less than ten (maybe five) years away from retirement. Anyone who still has 20, 30, or more years before they plan to retire should relax, take a deep breath, and stop watching the daily market movements. Keep your portfolio well diversified, something like an S&P 500 index fund, and don't check your 401k balance every other day. And keep contributing to your 401k through payroll deductions.

It only becomes an issue if everything tanks and the economy never recovers. In that case, everyone is screwed across the board, and we're all subsistence farmers again so it still won't matter.

Ideally I will receive SS benefits to supplement my retirement savings. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway.

You can't put money you don't have aside for retirement. And even if you did save, one period of unemployment or a health care crisis could wipe you out. As for this notion that you're fine if you don't cash out, my 401k is currently worth just slightly more than it was 4 years ago. That's just the result of the past year. I am 40. How long do you suppose it will take me to be where I would be now if the market had held up? It's very telling that you say only people who have 5 years to retirement need to worry. Where were those people 20 years ago? Many of them were probably following the advice you're espousing. Look where they are now.

Certainly there are people for whom it is, and for many of those people it's through no fault of their own. However, if you can afford it, you should continue your contributions to your 401k. If people convert the stocks in their 401ks to cash now, they've essentially bought high and sold low, the exact opposite of what you want to do when investing. Couple that with the fact that these same people will probably miss out on some of the gains when stocks begin to recover and it adds up to an even bigger loss in the long term.

I didn't state that only people who were 5 years away from retirement need to worry, I said 10 years ( possibly 5, if the market recovers sooner). Do you know how many 10 year periods have produced a negative return in the stock market in its entire history? Zero. Every single 10 year period in the history of the stock market has produced an increase in value, e.g. 1929-1939, 1930-1940, 1931-1941, 1973-1983, etc.

You don't have to take my advice, but if you cash out now the only thing you're guaranteeing is that you're locking in your losses.

When they show you those projections for mutual funds, IRAs, or 401ks, they assume uninterrupted growth. The market is cyclical, so it follows that many people are going to be caught at the trough of the cycle. And they don't factor in things like periods of unemployment or health care crises. Then there's taxation. People who are putting away money now are doing so in the period of lowest taxation ever. People who invested in tax deferred accounts back in the 70s, who did so when marginal tax rates were 70% are sitting pretty, tax-wise. People in my generation and those that follow have the reverse situation. We're putting away money when the top tax rate is 30%. The fiscal policies of Reagan through Bush II are going to lead to a situation where we are probably going to be taxed at a MUCH higher rate than our antecedents.

You have no earthly idea how many sacrifices she made to save what little she could. She has worked her ass off since she was 12. She has done everything possible to educate herself on the right thing to do and when. She was not one of those greed get rich quick people. She did everything the hot shots said you are supposed to do. Diversified, changed her investment percentages at certain times, blah blah blah.

The woman was weeping like a little petrified child last night. Absolute terrified and traumatized.

So you can just shove your "what's the big deal" attitude.

My post obviously was not about her. You may have read that part of my post that said "unless one is 5-10 years from retirement...". I didn't think I needed to include "or is currently retired", but if I did, consider this post appended to that one.

they can do it to me in 20 years, and my kids in 40 years - ad nauseum.

Which is why virtually every financial adviser in the world would recommend that as you get closer to retirement, you should have less of your money in stocks and more in bonds.

losing even 5% of our money is a huge hit that makes a difference between being able to put gas in the car, or buy the heart medicine. She has so little that even that small percent is very meaningful. We aren't talking about switching from Starbucks every morning to homebrew and those new fancy grocery store coffee cups. We are talking maybe can't afford the basic staples because as frugal as she is, she's already at the very limit of her "income".

Without a doubt. But I wasn't talking about people like your mom, those who are retired and just scraping by. I was referring to people who still have a couple of decades or more before they plan to retire. I know some people truly cannot afford to save because they simply do not have any extra income to do so, but if it's at all possible everyone should save something, because every little bit helps in the long run.

it doesn't get stolen by the elite at the last minute. I have spent my lifetime being taught to save save save. I have saved everything I can, held almost no debt. Paid my house off early. Everything they say to do.

For Mom it's a matter of survival. For me, I've lost faith. Plain and simple.

That is one major expense that you won't have to deal with in retirement, and it guarantees that you'll always have a roof over your head. Social security will provide enough income to keep the lights on, and worst case scenario you can get a 20 hour a week part time job to supplement social security so you can eat healthy. Welcome to the Golden Years in Bush's America

So anyone who put all of their money in the stock market in 1932 did not fully recover for 24 years. However, those who invested over the long term, putting a little bit away each year beginning in, say, 1920, and continued to put a little away after 1932, had dollar-cost averaged their money and it did not take as long for them to be made whole.

what's left of the IT industry, I am making roughly what I was about 15 years ago. Would like to have retired in 5 years, but not gonna happen now. Hope you fare better.

Certainly this is no joke for people who are getting close to retirement, but people who still have 20 or 30 years before they retire shouldn't panic and pull all of their money out of the market.

recovers in a few years, it might be OK for many people.

And based on the history of the stock market I should be okay. However, like I said, if it doesn't recover by then we'll all be subsistence farmers anyway, so it won't really matter.

I don't think we will open the next one:(..

We'll ride it out a while, and try not to bail as long as OUR participation$ is there. It would be nice to get the employer's 4% and the interest we "used" to have, but I guess we will hope to keep what we personally put in and just call it a "bad" investment....and then hope we don't live too long :(

Ba-dump bump.

I'm merely pointing out why people who have decades left before they retire shouldn't panic over the decline in the value of their 401k accounts. I did not say "screw" anyone.

I'm reacting not to your direct words but your don't panic posts and apparent faith in the market vs. social security. Live long & prosper.

Long term investing in the stock market and social security. The old "don't put all your eggs in one basket" approach

Spare me the Wall St. trader spew and quit trying to make it seem like some theoritical fairy tale

People are WIPED OUT

the MONEY is GONE

Of course I'm still working and won't know for another month when the plan report is released.

But Look at the "End Game Results" of the last 2 RATpublican administrations and quit playing the part of a Wall St. Cheerleader.

What kind of annuity is this?

It's not being a Wall Street Cheerleader to suggest that people take a rational, long-term view of their finances.

I'm still trying to see how anything has been "raided" in your account.

and the Greedy Wealthy Elite, fueled by insider trading, didn't get out in time leaving us "Long Term" investors holding the bag

How many shares did you have last month and how many shares do you own today?

Wall St. is crumbling under the weight of doing business in an Unstable - Deregulated "Trickle Down Theory" environment.

Deregulation (which Wall St. advocated for) is 100% to blame for the current crisis hard working honest American Tax payers is having to bail out

There is too much fear mongering.

Can we get back to greed mongering please?

Every chance he gets to remind everyone where Republicans wanted to put Social Security.

I figured that they were making their cut and getting rich off that.

We've been looted. That's just what has happened. So, I guess we can't even call Blackwater to stop the remaining looting. America is done and it's all on the conservatives... I mean Republicans... I mean corporatists (either party).

They are constantly told not to worry about anything and leave all the thinking up to unidentified others. Check out DU, there are lots of people still banking at banks that'll be out of business is a week or two. It doesn't matter what anyone says to them either, they are proud to be stupid and simultaneously confident that they know more than you or anyone else.

The value just disappears. Everyone loses when you have poor economic policies.

It simply changes hands

Part of the problem is people were marking their 401(k)s to market. A security (unless it pays dividends) is worth nothing until you sell it.

....they would crash the system....80 million baby-boomers have been sending wall street their retirement money for 40 years....now, the boomers are beginning to retire....

....why pay out 100 cents on a dollar when you can conjure up adam simth's invisible finger and only have to payout 20 cents on a dollar?....if we keep playing the capitalist shell-game, I'm sure they'll cycle the gamble again....

....the stock market will come back and your investments will recover, unfortunately, it won't be in your lifetime....

And with so many baby boomers getting ready to retire this year, the stock market was ripe with a lot of savings to confiscate.
:-(

I warned friends and family for years of the possibility and to be careful because the whole thing stunk to high heaven to me for some reason. Unfortunately it was touted in the mainstream as the responsible and right thing to do so I was dismissed as simply being an alarmist. I've always been suspicious when government tries to limit how you can use your own damn money or 'forces' you to invest.

they have done the same with pension plans. :shrug:

where do you think pension plan funds sat? pension plans were (and still are) heavily invested in a wide range of investments (including the stock market) so this falling market would have impacted those pension plans just as much (if not more) as a person's 401k. it's just that the average pension eligible person wouldn't see (or look for) it as they wouldn't have the ability to look at the pension funds balance on anything nearing a daily basis.

I'm not surprised. Also, the stock market is a racket.

Not only am I skeptical of 401Ks, I can't afford to enter my employer's 401K program (luckily, for the moment, I still have a modest traditional, state pension, as a state employee).

I'm resentful but kind of relieved I have no assets right now. I have a car worth about $4,000. And 600 sq ft worth of real wood furniture. That's it.

But, no, I'm not surprised in the slightest.

I wish Obama was a socialist.

brought to you by RATpublican Deregulation - "The Latest Great Depression"

I'm not suggesting that these clowns are Dems by any definition, but people running financial institutions have to deal with the government, and often spread the money around to both parties. If you check out the CEOs on Newsmeat (http://www.newsmeat.com/) you'll find that a good number of them, while they do favor repukes in general, spend a decent money on Dems as well. Chris Dodd seems particularly popular (shockingly enough).

I still own the same number of shares that I did a few days ago. Next week I'll own even more--because my 401k contribution will go in and get a bunch of shares while they're marked down at 5-year lows.

Did someone "steal" your home equity, too? Because the price of your home has dropped a bunch, too, if you haven't noticed.

The Professor

I want to join.

I mean, i know things are screwed up, but the internet is obviously still working. We still have electricity. Lots of people went to work today, even people who work at banks!

And the money i have in the market is almost still way ahead of what i actually put in there. Not as far ahead, of course, but still more than i started with.

Everyone needs to stop hyperventilating and ride it out.
The Professor

If you're not freaking out you must be a closet FReeper!

:sarcasm:

Yes, I definitely think we need a Cooler Heads Coalition.

I don't think i'm in a closet. Geez, there's a window right next to me. Who knew?
GAC

It is only because fo teh Democrats that we still ahve that much.

I'll reiterate what Common Sense Party said. I have the same number of shares in my account that I had yesterday. In fact, the number of shares is increasing with each contribution at a greater rate than they were a year ago. If you were close to or in retirement then you shouldn't ever have a lot of exposure to equities no matter whether the market is up or down.

:grr:

security ...they want us to be slaves

:grr:

No, TheGoldenRule, you have the wrong attitude. Just calm down, breathe deeply, make sure your portfolio is diversified, make the clever moves, cover your ass, look out for yourself, keep your shoulder to the wheel, your eyes on the prize, your ear to the ground, your nose to the grindstone...

This is called "freedom." The wealthy and powerful few are completely free to rob you and exploit you, and you are free to spend your whole life in a futile and obsessive attempt at joining them, or in minimizing the damage they do to you. Then they will change the rules and you'll get screwed anyway.

:applause:

Thought you might like that.

That one was for you!

The paper value is down at the moment, but I am still contributing.

Is this your first rodeo, FreakinDJ?

This may have been the single best answer to the SSI funding problem

A lot of Americans are going to be forced to "Work To you Drop"

And if you manage to buy in during the present dip, you will be ahead of where you would have been in the absence of volatility.

which I don't

I think America has a VERY BIG PROBLEM in the fact we produce/manufacture nothing any more

Well with the exception of Bad Loans

This whole mess may actually force us into a green economy.

Cleaner - Greener Manufacturing of Raw Materials is needed to close the loop

That will come as such a shock to all the factory workers and manufacturers I meet every week.

Reports are out every week of Whole Corporations moving off shore

Just try and buy a piece of steel that does not say "Made in China"

is just asinine. It's not true. Do we need to be concerned about offshoring? Yes. We obviously need to create an environment in the U.S. that is attractive for businesses to stay here. But let's not stretch the truth and say that the sky has already fallen and that the game is over.

You know, all that rolling stock - the boxcars, flat cars, tank cars and the hundreds of locomotives serviced over the Wasatch in SLC. Every single one of them have "Made in Japan" stamped on them, right? And the heavy equipment over in Magna at Kennicott. None of it made here. Ditto the equipment and product coming out of Morton Thiokol. And it is a well known fact that the Nucor Cold Finish plant in Brigham City is actually on Chinese soil. And don't even mention the thousands of Tractor Trailers rolling East & West on I 80 and up and down I 15. Every one of them has "Scania", "ERF", "MAN" or the Mercedes logo on the nose. Nary a KW or a Pete in sight.

Yup. We don't make a damned thing in this country anymore. The millions of people that work in manufacturing really just go to the local pool hall and hang out all day.

but I guess they do. They're still contributing to their 401(k)'s, so they must be getting paid.

I didn't realize the Nucor plant was actually Chinese soil, but you're probably right. It must be like an embassy.

Yeah, we sold out EVERYTHING, lock, stock and barrel, to the ferriners long ago. All we do is flip burgers and push paper here in the States.

either way it ends up with the worker getting screwed.

Edited for the spelling Nazi's.

These people are not stupid, they know that there is a limit on the con and wanted to get all the $$ before they ran out.

for removing any choice in the matter. It didn't matter that I knew they would steal it, there was no way to stop them.