Even clergy are blaming the poor. I'm pissed!!

I had lunch with a group of women clergy yesterday, a regular monthly meeting. Because these are all ordained women, they aren't fundamentalists. Yesterday, I was the only UCC in attendance (there are usually 2 of us), with one ELCA. The rest were United Methodists.

Of course, we got talking about the financial crisis. Nearly everyone started bitching about "people who bought houses they couldn't afford", and how "we're all paying for people who should never have bought houses in the first place". One woman even started complaining about how some people thought they had a "right" to own their own home, instead of renting.

I was blown away by the ignorance! I pointed out that people get mortgages because banks and other lenders GIVE them mortgages, and that it's the responsibility of lenders to do due diligence. I said people bought homes they couldn't afford because they were told they COULD afford them!! I asked them how many of them have ever written their own mortgages or other loan contract. *crickets* So I pointed out that the people now being foreclosed on didn't write their own mortgages, either!!

Then I launched into a sermon (pretty much) about how Jesus tells us that when we care for the poor, we're caring for him. Jesus says the one sure way to gain punishment is to NOT take care of the poor...and instead "here I am, sitting at a table of pastors who are desperately trying to blame the poor for their own bad fortune! How many of your parishioners have been foreclosed on? *crickets again* That's right!! We don't know the poor, so we can blame our problems on them, rather than the bankers and lawyers and shareholders sitting in our own pews. I fear for the poor, because this is going to get worse, and even the Church, who ought to be defending them is blaming them. Jesus was VERY clear on this issue!!"

One response: Well, you're a liberationist. We're not, really.

Then I left. But I am worried that the poor are being made the scapegoats, and progressives MUST defend them. Someone needs to.

Thank you for letting me rant.

Not them. Modern Pharisees, the whole lot of them. Things really don't change all that much over time. Hell, Jesus told the rich they needed to give their stuff away in order to follow him, not that anyone reads that part....

Here's a link to a great shoot-down of that argument, borrowed from another thread.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/162789

Average rental now about $1,200 per month. Renters were told "why rent when you can own with zero down and pay less for mortgage payment"

Well done. :hug:

One thing I was thinking of when you were talking about blaming the poor. I definitely see it happening around me and I can't help but wonder who will be the target once nearly everyone is poor. :scared:

You'd think all those people held up their lender and walked out of there with a stolen mortgage!

The right wing has contaminated this whole culture with their hatred of their fellow men. It's very ugly.

We're going to lose FHA and HUD over this if people don't pull their heads out in a damn hurry.

to people?

Because if that is so, then a whole lot of people will have their credit cards cut up.

I don't agree with either side on this. If you borrow more than you can pay you are guilty. If you lend more than the borrow can pay then you are guilty too.

Everyone has to make responsible decisions. No one is exempt.

tell you you can afford it, why would you not believe them? After all, one assumes they checked your credit history, income, etc. No, the onus is on the lender. They should know everyone is looking for easy money. Their job is to protect the assets of their company and shareholders. The lenders are clearly responsible here.

And yes, banks have the responsibility of limiting credit to those who can reasonably be expected to pay. That's why God made credit ratings and credit checks. So banks would USE THEM!!

No one follows the old adage "If its too good to be true..."

When I was looking around, I looked at the payments and did my budget. I listened to what the realtor had to say and then I discounted it. I only looked at 30 year fixed, none of these interest only gimmick loans. I decided it was overpriced and beyond my budget so I decided to wait.

That's why banks need to do due diligence, which, btw, they're legally bound to do. No, this is all on the lenders.

We are raising a bunch of financial illiterates.

Unless a person's education was so bad that they didn't learn how to read, everyone has the tools to learn.

And everyone needs a friend who has a clue. Everything a salesperson says should be run through a skeptical third party.

100%.

Irresponsible lenders, irresponsible borrowers.

And no limits = deregulation. And the repugs have been pushing deregulation for decades, which is why we're all in this mess now.

Oh yeah, and the repugs like Dr. Laura have been pushing the "personal responsibility" mantra all that time, just like you're doing now.

Which party do you belong to, again?

It starts with Personal Responsibility. But if you have tried your best and it still doesn't work, then the Government should be there to help you out, especially if it is something you had no control over.

Plenty of blame to go around here. I rent and live a debt free life. I'm not sitting here bitching about having to haul other people's asses out of the fire whether it's the poor who bought houses they couldn't afford or the banks that lent to people they shouldn't have. That's what needs to be done to get this country back on track.

So that precludes them from caring for their fellow human beings? Are "Love one another" and "Do unto others" and "whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren..." stricken from their 'rules'?

This is so disturbing. You did GREAT, by the way! :headbang:

I didn't realize this blame the poor nonsense is being spread so widely. I'm so glad you spoke up and said what you did.

:applause:

:eyes:

It's the congregations that pay their salaries, yes?

If so, THEY live on *handouts* given by others yes? So they are basically nothing more than well-dressed panhandlers with a schtick? Who the hell are THEY to talk such crap about their parishioners?

THEY have a lot of nerve complaining about the poor that THEY probably pester to give to THEIR church. Hypocrites, the lot of them. They should be exposed for their viciousness.

I'm already cutting back in spending, because I figure non-profits like churches will be the first cuts people make from their own budgets.

Pretty soon, clergy will be poor. Then whose fault will it be?

The last thing a congregation of people with no job, foreclosed homes, and empty bank accounts want to hear is how having lots of treasure is god's way of loving you.

And only the hoi polli clergy will be poor. We'll still have the "professionals" up on stage raking in the cash from the masses and "faith-based initiatives" while huddling under their tax shelters. So what if the laity is eating cat food, god's message can't get out there if you're not wearing a three thousand dollar suit and matching Italian shoes...

Personally I'm of the mind we should wall these sorts of clergy up in little cells. Revitalize the anchorite tradition, y'know?

It's all the fault of people buying houses who couldn't afford to. Heckuvajob they did on the public, but it's so easy to do so, with people falling for their propaganda time after time.

I for one appreciate it. I received a letter from the Franchise Tax Board yesterday telling me that my property tax refund will not be coming this year as the gropenfuhrer has eliminated it from the budget for this year.

This money goes to help low income folks pay property taxes on their homes.

I called up my late mother's 88 year old friend and asked her if she'd filed for it this year and she replied, "not yet". I told her not to bother with it. When I told her that this property tax assistance was deleted from the budget she replied, "That bastard!". She lives on $850.00 a month social security and a very small pension of about $100.00 from her late husband. :mad:

Being poor sucks. Having money not given that you failed to get but are due really sucks even worse. Can I get the value of my postage stamp refunded?

I wonder how many people in California will not be able to pay their property taxes because of this being deleted from the state budget for 2008/09?

:kick:

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and not tried."

In that context it seems that the person was saying, "well, we don't care about the poor". And I've never heard of that word used in that fashion before.

It's school of theology that stresses care for the poor, and the right of the poor and other oppressed peoples to rise up and change their circumstances.

And, interestingly, I'm not a liberationist. Liberation Theology teaches that violence is an appropriate way to free the oppressed. I'm a strict pacifist, so I don't qualify.

I just ry to be a Christian.

are caused by speculators. People that took advantage of cheap money to buy rentals and vacation homes.
The foreclosures in Fl. and CA. are perfect examples. There are cable shows on flipping houses. Flipping
became a nat'l pastime in the last few years. Someone needs to collect the data on this.

The Cook County Sheriff that is refusing to evict people, is evicting RENTERS, not the owners who have
walked away.

Also, "the poor" is just another word used against minorities. These so called christian people are disgusting.

Thanks!

And yes, "poor" is code for black and hispanic.

I doubt these others do much of that either. Again, these were mainline Protestants, not fundies.

For they will inherit the responsibility of things turning to shit.

He was the one who proclaimed: "ownership society,"
so if its a right, then why not? Indeed.

But as to blaming the poor... sheesh.
yet, that's been the excuse for thousands of years,
blame the most vulnerable.

Sadly, these are clergy we have warned ourselves against.
I fight this battle too often for my own preference

I preached about this Sunday,
among other things. (Like JEsus consorted with
terrorists...)..

Why don't you come and have breakfast with my
clergy group of bold ELCA women?

And less blaming the most vulnerable. I'm glad you're speaking out against this, too. The Church needs to preach Jesus' gospel at a time like this!

Now there are three in town and several more in the area.

Quite a change from rural Iowa, where 5 of the 8 clergy in town were women. Because the white boys don't like to go that far from big cities.

i.e. no top or bottom within sight.

http://www.amazon.com/Prophetic-Sisterhood-Ministers-Frontier-1880-1930/dp/0595006817/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223664218&sr=1-1

But if you're interested I'm sure my copy is floating around here somewhere and I'd be happy to send it to you.

Meaning they go through the teachings of Christ and select only those items that appeal to them. Those things that are unpalatable, like caring for the poor and shunning material possessions, end up being left behind on the buffet table.

You rock!

I'd also point out that...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4207133&mesg_id=4207133

The true HOUSING CRISIS has been going on for DECADES and it has to do with the shortage of low-income housing, so even YOU aren't speaking to the real issue.

they couldn't afford.

narrow minded. And of course they dislike the poor. The poor cannot drop money in the plate. Churches are always fund raising for who?

If you can find a copy of last weeks Bill Moyers' show, he had an economist on, who is an author and professor toward the final segment of the show, who dispelled this myth and the blame game. Is it amazing, those who publicly profess a "calling" repudiate the teachings of that very faith when they are challenged by these uncertain economic times, what leaders and shining examples. As usual money trips theology. The one who made the comment about liberation theology is simply ignorant and looking for an excuse. American theology hangs between death and barely alive.

If you are a minister, looks like Sunday's Sermon is written!

This whole thing has little to do with mortgages. The other day there were less than a million loans in jepardy.




If the average deliquency is $20,000 per loan, that's still less than fifteen billion dollars total.

The $700 billion dollar bailout amounts to one million dollars ($1,000,000) per bad loan.

Either my numbers are wrong, or this has nothing to do with bad loans.

I went off when I heard this yesterday - and I told her "your friend is displaying great ignorance and arrogance, but sadly she's not alone in this thinking". Too sad for words...

Gotta love it. :sarcasm:

When it all comes crashing down, is everyone going to hate each other for being poor?

"Well, you're a liberationist. We're not, really."

So they failed to say what they were, they only said what they considered you. Did they also classify themselves?

It seems, to them, the poor are dirty and unwashed, and must remain so through their beliefs. They might have just as well said, "Slave harder thou serfs!" or "No soup home for you!"

Were they denailists?

But I've also seen quite a few people who have good jobs over-reaching for the 800,000$ apartments or McMansions in the NJ suburbs. They could have afforded something cheaper, and they didn't. They aren't the poor, but they are also people who were buying what they had little business buying.

I don't blame them, though. Because the mortgage companies really didn't do their due dilligence, and they have a lot to answer for.

Sorry to keep saying this but it was a set up!!!
those "risky" mortgages were a complete set up. What the banks did was inflate the price of the houses so let's say the house is really worth 200,000 they would say it's worth 300,000. So you take out a loan on 300,000 and your already a 100k in the hole. Now ,all the sudden they change the terms of your loan. Well you can't sell the house because No one will pay the price you need to either scratch or profit so you can move on and the bank sure as hell isn't going to buy it, It's not worth it so you are forced to foreclose in the mean time this (insurance) which were those fake fucking credit default swaps just made a ton on the foreclosed home which they knew would probably be foreclosed on because of the change of terms in the mortgage. Think about it who really sets the value of real estate? Appraiser and what banks think the value is and what size loan they will give you on that property. They set the bubble up to burst but in the mean time they made TRILLIONS of dollars on the credit default swaps. Sorry for being such a wind bag I could go on for hours but I'll stop now.

That's one thing the Republicans are so good at, propagandizing.