The next time when some IDIOT says "Indian & Chinese workers are better educated than Americans..."

to patronizingly justify the off-shoring of American jobs, tell them the story of Douglas Prasher:



The question is: Why is an obviously qualified and talented scientist not gainfully, permanently employed in his field here in the U.S.?

It's been about "affordability" for quite some time, IME.

said that Chinese students were better than American students and that's why IBM was moving operations to China.

:eyes:

My head would have been forced to explode.

Hmmm. I thought not.

And we're still eating the stuff every day.

Why is it, again, that trading with China is so good for Americans?

And did the Woods Hole crowd have anything to do with this guy not working for a year.

There is an amazing story here "Science Prize Winner Fired by Feds One Year Prior"

Now this would be something worth investigating.

What a great guy though. He's let go, working in job that's not his thing at all. New that he's got a mil plus, what does he do? Goes back to work at the place that dumped him.

One that cropped up would make him unable to perform in a laboratory.

When he could be working as some entry-level post-doc at even an academic setting for twice that, and not even have to worry about writing grants.

But I'm sorry, I'll go ahead and let you get back to blaming foreigners.

Is there somewhere in my OP where I "blamed foreigners"?

he voluntarily gave samples of the GFP gene to Chalfie. The cloned gene was also given to Roger Tsien, the third Nobel Prize winner...

But instead of focusing on his hard luck, Prasher said he is happy for his former colleagues. While it was perfectly within his rights not to share the cloned gene with others, Prasher said he felt an obligation to give his research a chance to turn into something significant, even if he was no longer a part of it.

"When you're using public funds, I personally believe you have an obligation to share," Prasher said. "I put my heart and soul into it, but if I kept that stuff, it wasn't gonna go anyplace."



The guy's "personality disorder" is - he's not a shark.

Nothing to do with outsource, or why he can't hold a job doing science.

I know dozens and dozens of top level Physicists, Chemists and Engineers who can't find work in their fields and have left to go to Wall St., Silicon Valley or follow other unrelated career paths. CERN is facing a major budget cuts this year. Grants are drying up.

The most brilliant mathematician I've ever known had to leave his nontenured post last year when the a research grant wasn't renewed. He took a job as a taxi driver to pay the bills, because this allowed him control over his hours and the freedom to think about complex equations while working.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, but that's nothing new.

It's an enormously POLITICAL environment and the "customized science" pressures are incredible. Many of the people who thrive are very ... pliable. Don't like the results? Well, let's change some of the statistical assumptions. Want to support some agenda? We can do that.

Believe me ... there's a LOT of "science for sale" when it comes to chasing around for grant money. The laboratories only want "rainmakers" ... folks who can bring in the grants and deliver 'acceptable' results.

The problem is also that the academic types REALLY don't want to go into private industry where, there are actually a good bit of jobs (my company has hired 8000 people this year alone).

So let's blame outsourcing.

:eyes:

funding actually have supporting data.

the right always places the blame for widespread socio-economic phenomena on individual "pathology".

Please provide it.

but I love your assumption even better. It's the people who are working sh*tty jobs who are to blame for being unable to find a better one.

I once applied for a job as a cook and the manager was surprised that someone with my education would do that. He said "I am sure Principal Financial would love to hire you". So I applied there when they advertised 8 openings. I got a rejection letter back so fast it must have caused a sonic boom.

There's the possibility that say, his wife has a great job and he doesn't want to move.

Or is it his fault he doesn't have thousands saved up, just in case? I suppose it is.

The same corporations that run help wanted ads in the paper everyday are the same ones firing and laying off dozens at the same time. Someone once told me they run the ads purely for ego, appearances and to make their competition think they're doing better than they are.

the majority of people in some departments have a disorder, esp. in science and math, the person who didn't have asperger's syndrome or a related neurological variation would have been unusual in my department

or maybe you mean that being nice and decent -- which appears to be what he actually was -- is a disorder that interferes with getting work done? i suppose it DOES interfere w. being a tireless sociopathic self-promoter who can sell grants but wtf does that have to do w. good science?

look, the guy got fucked, he got pushed aside because the more aggressive folks got the grants and then they got his work for nothing, it was ever thus in the sciences

if that's a personality disorder, god help us all!

which likely represents the myopic views of the majority on the right:

McCain's Beef with Bears?—Pork
The presidential wannabe scoffs at pouring millions into studying grizzly bear DNA, but scientists say it's key to preserving the species

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=mccains-beef-with-bears

Republicans like to talk big about funding science, but they really only mean the kind of science that has an obvious marketable product at the end. They constantly ridicule basic research.

If you divide a postdoc's annual salary by (40 hrs/wk * 52 wks/yr), you might get $20/hour. But 40 hours/week would be kind of a funny choice to make.

and the parasites at the top are demanding even more replacements from off shore.

The same reason that non-military scientific research has come to a stand-still in the US.

The same reason that newly minted MDs have to go to work for Human Murdering Organizations saddled with $150,000 of debt.

The same reason that the few craftsmen that are still working have seen their wages reduced by 80% in the last 35 years.

The guy in the above story was either viewed as "too expensive" to hire, "over-qualified."

Let's not forget that common myth that corporations use: "Not enough skilled U.S. workers."

It's all about cheap-ass labor.

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our feet on the ground and not float off in space........

when Obama wins the election!!!

"What your saying"?

is fine, it's your comprehension of it that is lacking.

I'd say your (see, that's the correct usage) comprehension is lacking.

that is the challenge for you. If I was speaking to you, would you hear your or you're? Hmmm comtemplate that yogi!

And knowing a language requires more than simply speaking it.

The written/typed word is equally important, so you can't knock someone from another country for not being proficient in English when you can't properly express yourself in the written form of your native tongue.

You can barely speak English, and you're from here." I can barely speak English when this is nothing buy typed words. Now when I caught you on that you say "if I knew the difference I would have typed it correctly." You can't think correctly and in a remembering what I said kind of fluid motion. I will make mistakes typing any freaking time I want. You knew what the hell I said. Your not the grammar police and be mindful of remembering what you say and stand still on it. Your slippery when you do it any other way.

Now when I caught you on that you say "if I knew the difference I would have typed it correctly."

Since you put it in quotes, it looks like you're trying to quote me, even though I clearly said "you" instead of "I." If you meant it differently, then you clearly don't understand how to use quotation marks, either.

And my whole problem with your argument is that you slam people's English (when English is not their native tongue), yet you can't properly express yourself in the language you (barely) learned from the start.

Also, your post was full of typos, so I'm not totally clear on what you're trying to say, which is hilarious, since you will reach many more people via writing than you would via speaking.

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But you clearly DON'T know the difference, which is why I think ALL CAPS will be a good learning tool for you.

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and xenophobic.

one could be quite well educated.

Before you insult people, learn to spell your insults.

Next, we'll cover periods and commas.

"You're out of your mind; it is a classist statement."

thanks you guys!


:rofl:

Then when I called him on his lack of logic and atrocious grammar, he tells me to go back to India (and calls me "Hadji"), even though I was born and raised here.

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I am so confused. :crazy:

:rofl:

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Before you criticize anybody else's poor English, make sure you're up to speed on it yourself.

Speaking of internet tough guys, go outside and toss around racial slurs to minorities like you've been doing here -- the internal bleeding's going to suck.

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:boring:

But go ahead and defend the freeper tossing around racial slurs. :eyes:

Jesus, man, you can't even come up with a mediocre comeback to a subpar putdown. Fail.

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Damn, where's Trotsky at? He would LOVE this thread...

:)

excellent, my dear, good work!

<>

:P

:rofl:

I'm so stealing that if you don't mind?

but you taxi driving goat chompers say that to everyone!






:D

What universe are you living in? As we speak I have gone two weeks WITHOUT MY NEEDED MEDICATIONS because my insurance company is suddenlyrefusing to pay for it (when they paid for it before). Oh and this medicine was prescribed BY THE MAYO CLINIC.
Yeah sure..we have great medical care for those who are rich enough to pay for it themselves (I can't afford to shell out $2,000) or have good enough insurance (CEO's congressmembers) to afford it.

did you read it?

pile on, maybe, but;

greatest medical?
Check out some stats on dollars invested versus infant mortality, longevity, quality of life. Absorb those stats, then get back to me.

greatest military?
Certainly the biggest in dollar terms. In terms of flexibility, in terms of return on investment, in terms of veterans' care, not so much.

greatest country?
Travelled much?

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Where do I start with this...

:eyes:

Keep drinking the koolaid.

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If they said 'Black people who go to wal mart are dumb', THAT is about race.

Racism. It's about race. Not about you disliking them and what they say.

Race. Ism.

Come on. It's basic fucking stuff.

And, for the record, American isn't a race. Not that they said anything about Americans that you could even think was 'racist' even if you considered it a race. But, America is a nation, American is a nationality.

About time you run back to hide under your rock, racist.

I DO and many of them have PhD's..and got them in their country of origin. Oh and yes they have accents. Big Fucking Deal.
And for your information most OTHER countries have better educational systems than we do...What most Americans take in college like Calculus and some hard sciences..are taught in these schools in HS or EARLIER. I didn't get Algebra till 9th grade.
Many of the people I know from other countries learned it in SEVENTH GRADE.

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That is all.

"We have the greatest medical system in the world." Ranks number 29. "We're 29! We're 29!" We rank 29th in infant mortality. So as for being the greatest? Mot so much...

"We have the greatest military in the world." Yo're right, we've killed more civilians in the past year than any other major nation. Um, ok. So at least we're no. one in something, right?

"We are the greatest country in the world." In what respect, Charlie?

Ever been there or studied elsewhere?

Gotten medical treatment elsewhere?

Been in the military elsewhere?

We ain't number 1 anymore...save in military spending. This is mostly due to assholes in denial that there is a problem and therefore us not fixing the problem and returning to number 1.

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! (Keep chanting it junior...we're going down the toilet while you chant.) Next time try fixing problems instead of voicing blind "we're number 1" nationalism.

"Why is an obviously qualified and talented scientist not gainfully, permanently employed in his field here in the U.S.?"

That's a good question-- and without further, relevant knowledge, the best any of us can do is simply presume, infer, and guess; which doesn't really validate your opening statement one way or the other...

try it sometimes, it's amazing -- they tell us, there were limited grants, he didn't get one, it ain't rocket science

executive summary: there are very limited numbers of grants for pure science, only a small percentage of grant proposals will result in awards large enough to do the research, if you are not a loud pushy self-promoting piece of shit (and many scientists have that nerdy touch of asperger's that makes it impossible to push themselves forward) then guess what, dude, you're hosed

"...try it sometimes, it's amazing" Oh God-- that was funny! That was hysterical! Did you think of it on your own or hire a team of comedians? Bless your little heart!


...and we put absolute faith in the MSM?

If I'm going to have cynicism re: one article in the MSM, intellectual honesty would force to put that same cynicism in all MSM articles, yes? Or do we pick and choose which one's to believe to better validate our posts?

There is no research being done in the US except where powerful Republicans could grab some money for their states. California lost its research money because it sent Democrats to the Senate. So much for winning a majority.

It is indeed a tragic situation brought on by a funding cut and likely a consequence of RW attacks on science funding, but you've somehow managed to inject a generous dose of xenophobia into the proceedings.

If science firms hadn't offshored so much work -- and imported so many H1-B's -- there would be plenty of private-industry jobs for Mr. Prasher.

in private industry. HOWEVER it may require him to a) move or b) take a loss of status. THere are people in the industry who aren't willing to do that.
I work in biotech..It takes forever to hire people--because its hard to find many QUALIFIED and EXPERIENCED applicants.
The few people I know who have been laid off, were able to find jobs fairly quickly. Employment opportunities in the private sector aren't that bad..there is however some underemployment going on..academia is a lot worse off than private industry though.

http://www.forbes.com/2001/07/26/0726gfp_4.html

William Ward (right) met Douglas Prasher on a jellyfish-hunting expedition in the 1980s. Ward, a professor at Rutgers University, had spent a decade becoming one of the world's experts on the green fluorescent protein found in the Aequoria jellyfish. Prasher wanted to find the gene that makes GFP.

Prasher, a researcher at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, already knew Aequoria well. He cloned the jellyfish's other glowing protein, Aequorin, while doing his graduate work at the University of Georgia. But cloning the GFP gene would prove difficult to fund and to finish.

After scrounging for funding, Prasher landed a three-year grant from the American Cancer Society. He used up all three years trying to find a genetic sequence that matched the protein--a task that could be done quickly today. When he finished in 1992, he didn't have enough funding left to put the gene in bacteria--a necessary test if he was to be sure he had the right DNA sequence.

Martin Chalfie at Columbia University and Roger Tsien at University of California in San Diego wound up trying the protein in other organisms, using Prasher's sequences. Chalfie is generally credited with popularizing the protein. Prasher did not receive tenure at WHOI and moved on to a completely different field.

He is now a population geneticist with the United States Department of Agriculture in Wood's Hole, Massachusetts.

number of Chinese and Indians who are now being educated.

I couldn't be more vehemently opposed to trade laws that allow US companies to ship jobs overseas, but that doesn't mean our education system isn't producing an awful lot of dummies.

Who knows the whole story of why this man is so out of luck, but back to the matter of education - I don't think that the fact that someone is not well-educated is a reason they should be deprived of a chance at a job and survival.

In other words, we need jobs for the geniuses, but there need to be plenty of decent-paying jobs for those who are not academically proficient, or else the less-educated unemployed will end up forced to prey on those who do have jobs - IE crime will soar.

“The simple fact is, global education standards have passed America by,” Compton said in a press release. “When it was Finland who was winning, it wasn’t such a concern. But now that our K-12 students are being outperformed academically by China and India — the two highest populated countries in the world with the fastest growing economies and with cultures that embrace intellectual challenge — it is cause for serious concern."

http://www.2mminutes.com/index.html


Have you never seen "Jaywalking"?

Are you not aware that George Bush got THREE MILLION VOTES more than Kerry in 2004?

We are a nation of ignorant morons.

I hope he gets a better job offer after the exposure. Research funding-definitely a cut throat world out there.

:rofl:

I've got a lot more respect for SA in particular after this thread..He's killing me!:rofl:

:rofl:

Despite the hype, education is not especially valued. This is true for many who have completed advanced degrees and find themselves working far below their capabilities.

Before the Indian influx of some years ago, my company would constantly get resumes from people with the most incredible educational backgrounds, mostly in the sciences, who were working as programmers in order to earn a living.

2speak

Anyone who's had any kind of a job knows that when you put on a tie, you choke off blood flow to the brain and you get STOOPID.

This is the only explanation for most of the business decisions made over the last few decades by American CEO's.