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The Joe Plumber thing makes no sense to me.........

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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:23 PM
Original message
The Joe Plumber thing makes no sense to me.........
I just listened to the BO / Joe discussion.

It doesn't sound like this guy or his business "makes" $250,000 per year clear profit. It sounds like his REVENUES are $250,000 for the business. He probably pays himself out of these revenues. His business also has expenses that add up and other deductions on the yearly basis. If he buys a new truck he can write off all depreciation in the first year if he wants.

I just think it's bullshit and they are misleading the public on this.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed. I've wondered if he's a plant
or just someone who wants to discuss the flat tax, so he just happens to make the magic number.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was a paid operative of the gop.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Well I don't know if he is a plant but I don't think he's telling the whole truth. nt
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I doubt he's lying. Just confused about income versus profit.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Yep nt
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. But does McCain know the difference?
I seriously doubt it. He's the guy who doesn't know how many houses he owns.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Maybe BO can use this in the next few days to discredit the Mcain..
campaign, since it is getting debunked

One more nail in the coffin
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. That would be easy and natural
"Now the other day, we heard John McCain mention 'Joe the Plumber' 17 times, talking about how my plan would hurt his small business. Well when John McCain said he didn't know anything about Economics, he should have added he's not too great with accounting either. Because ..."
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. There is a lot starting to possibly surface out here about Joe's backgroud as well
Edited on Thu Oct-16-08 06:49 AM by gopbuster
maybe by tonight KO or the MSM will have some more poop on the guy as well.

Something is rotten and smelly about the whole thing.

Hand them their butts on a silver drain plug
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Or, he just doesn't understand how he is taxed is on income...not revenue.
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. That's the point. Andrea Mitchell just reported
that her "fact checking" revealed that Joe's business would not be hurt by Obama's plan.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Good for her for once!!...lol ...it didn't pass the smell test nt
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
45. And I didn't need for her to report it to know it! :)
Thanks though, because many will not get it unless it is spelled out.
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's exactly what I was thinking.
How many plumbing shops are there that make $250,000 in PROFIT?

Not very damn many. Joe the plumber will have all sorts of assets that are depreciable. There's no way a new plumbing business should show this kind of profit.

Now, I know Joe is a plumber, not an accountant, but still this whole thing sounds bogus.

Obama played it safe. I guess there is some possibility that Joe has saved up a couple million bucks, which is what it would cost to buy a well established plumbing business that is kicking off that kind of profit despite the accountant's best effort to defer profits.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. What 10% - 15% profit max on a small business? That means 2.5 mil rev
I guess it's possible...big plumbing co. I guess could do this kind of rev.

But the way the conversation went it didn't sound that way to me
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. No talk of Flat tax from McCain, so we gotta have Joe.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. I had never heard of Joe the Plumber thing until tonight
I was confused and McCain didn't make sense. I bet most Americans didn't know what the hell they were talking about!
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. McCain pulled Joe out of the toilet.
It was a good trick. Obama didn't have specific facts to point out, for example, that Joe's not really normal people's idea of Joe the Plumber if he is worried about taxes that affect people that make over $250K.
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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. fact check
MSNBC Andrea Mitchell just said they checked tax plans and Joe the Plumber would not be hurt by Obama's plan!!!!!
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Good! n/t
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
43. That settles that, then. n/t
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. Joe the Plummer is the Elmer's Glue All of the McCain platform.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Gold plated pluming fixtures???
What horseshit.
No plumer makes a quarter mil.
A succesful contractor can, but that's a businessman, not a friggin plumbob! And for a contractor to clear a quarter mil and not be able to find loopholes is like Einstein being unable to figure change on a dollar.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. Joe the plumber is not much of a businessman
McCain said the taxes would not allow him to hire people. That is simply asinine. Employee wages are deductible.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. Yes, Joe's a moron and McCain is exploiting him to mislead people. And the media cooperates.
The plumbing business is a 2-man shop. If it grosses $250,000/year then Joe is a far better plumber than he is an accountant. There's NO WAY IN HELL that it nets $250,000/year ... and BENEFITS from Obama's tax proposals, with no increase in taxes.

It's utter, total, and complete bullshit. It's no wonder Joe's gone through two marriages in the last 10 years. He's a fuck-up.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. maybe by tonight KO or the MSM....
will have some more poop on the guy as well.

Something is rotten and smelly about the whole thing.

Hand them their butts on a silver drain plug
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theDash Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Obama disappointed me in his response...
...when John McCain kept suggesting that by "spreading the wealth", Obama meant take wealth from small businesses (i.e. Joe the Plumber) and give it to the poor. When Obama told Joe the Plumber that we needed to spread the wealth, he meant that we need to help small businesses and those making under $250,000 a year, instead of giving huge tax breaks to the 'Exxon's' of the country who are making record profits at everyone else's expense.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. I can see him making that much.
Most people have this image of plumbers as the guy under the sink showing butt crack while he fixes the leak or clog.
In actuality a construction plumbing business is an enterprise like most other medium to large construction businesses where all he does is hires others to do the work.If this guy is the owner of such a company I would bet a lot of money that 'joe' has not picked up a monkey wrench in years but instead relies on the labor of others to make his money.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think he says it's a two-man operation, including himself
that he wants to become the owner of (possibly there are currently 2 workers, including himself, and the owner). It seems more likely that the 250-280K figure he gave is the turnover of the business. Possibly it's the combined wage bill for himself and his mate (in which case he wouldn't be affected by Obama's tax plan, as far as I understand things).

If he's going to be able make a $280K net profit each year from it, then I think a $900 tax increase shouldn't be a big problem for him.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. No way a two man op makes that much.
Not enough billable hours in a year to clear that much unless he is a 'subcontractor' for haliburton.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Here's a direct quote from the man himself:
PM: You’re a plumber, and you’re looking to buy your own plumbing business?

JW: Correct.

PM: Would that plumbing business employ other people or would it just employ you?

JW: Eventually it would employ other people. Right now it’s a two man shop and it’s got a very good footprint and a very good reputation, so eventually I would want to put other people out there. I don’t want to get huge because if you get too big your quality goes, but I definitely wouldn’t mind having two good plumbers out there with me working.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1465/pub_detail.asp


(Apologies for linking to a RW site, but they did interview him)

I think it could clear that much - especially if that's the turnover, and it includes the cost of supplies that gets billed to customers too. But even if it doesn't, 2 people billing 40 hours a week is about $70 an hour to get $280,000. I know plumbers charge around that much in the UK:

Prices will vary massively depending on where you are in the country, the plumber's own overheads (such as hiring tools or ordering parts), and the urgency of the job. A typical hourly rate is £40 for the first hour and £30 for subsequent hours, though this will vary massively.

http://www.ourproperty.co.uk/guides/plumber-p1.html
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. 70 x 2 x 40 x 52 = $291,200 Revenue..NOT profit n/t
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yes, I know, that's what I'm saying (nt)
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Ok..just clarifying...thanks nt
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. For him or his business to be making $250k profit...revenues would have to be 2.5 mil or so....
based on 10% profit margin for the business.

For a two man business?
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
27. Plumbers do make very good money.
But of course, the vast majority of people do NOT make that much money.

How sad is it that most college graduates these days make LESS than a plumber?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #27
44. Yes, but CNN reported "only once" that THIS Joe does not yet net $250,000/ year and
THIS "Joe the Plumber" would benefit MORE financially from Obama's tax plan. :wow:
Of course "the suits" upstairs must have insisted that they not mention THE FACT that "Joe the Plumber is going to vote AGAINST HIS OWN FINANCIAL WELFARE when he votes for Grampy. :crazy: Gee, wonder what else is at play (that's more important than his personal finances) with Joe? :eyes:
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Well, and even if he did not benefit from Obama's plan...
Why should I lose sleep over whether someone making a 6 figure income is going to be paying a few hundred more or less in taxes?

It's ridiculous. 95% of families do not make 250K. 90% of families make less than 100K.

People making this kind of money may not be rich, but they are not the ones who are truly hurting. They might have to give up private school or the vacation to St. Barts, but they will not have to skip meals like millions of others do. And before anyone says that 100K or 250K doesn't go far in Manhattan or San Francisco, I would also mention that living in those communities is just one more luxury that can be given up.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. I don't have a link yet, but am reading that Joe is a close friend of Keating's son-in-law?
Go figure? The corruption of the GOP is all-encompassing and shameless? :puke:
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. I have a friend that has a small business and he tells me...
...he brings in approx. $40 K per month. He has 6 employees. After salaries, expenses, overhead, etc. he tells me his take-home pay is $80 K a year. He is incorporated and says he falls into the over $250 K tax bracket.
He said he told his employees not to vote for Obama because if he wins and his taxes go up, two of them will be laid off.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. So the tax brackets are applied *before* salaries and expenses are allowed for?
That seems a strange way of taxing a business.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Your friend is wrong. EOM
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Check this out.....
Edited on Thu Oct-16-08 08:03 AM by gopbuster
Also if his income is 80k per year his taxes will NOT go up nor will his employees.

He is only taxed on his personal income or business clear profits. So if they are not over 250k he has no problem. AT 40 K per month, I assume this is Revenue for the business put his revenue at 480k per yer and will not effect the taxes he pays on personal income.

Check this out>>>>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7475823&mesg_id=7475823
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Your friend is a low information voter
Businesses are taxed on their net, not their gross
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
39. Andrea Mitchell came on MSNBC after and had to concede
That Joe's business would not be hurt by Obama's tax plan. She sounded quite disappointed. Said somwthing like: "No matter how we fact check this Senator McCain was wrong on this"
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
41. This will probaly clear things up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7474700
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. HEHEHE... also talk he may not be registered to vote....thanks
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
46. I thought he wanted to BUY the business, in which case, good
luck getting the loan to do so in the first place. Of course, seeing that he's related and all, perhaps the family could kick in enough, provided he kisses the ring.

Here's a tip so we don't need to call Joe and his snake so often: Never put potato peelings down the disposal/drain on Thanksgiving (or any other day) and peel those eggshells into a bowl.
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gopbuster Donating Member (715 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. You are correct! and thanks for the tip! nt
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