I have a question for those who breathing fire over the Powell endorsement.

I just searched the first four pages of GD. I just (re)read every OP about Powell. (There are quite a few.) I will admit to not reading all that many of the replies.

I found one that was even modestly in praise of Powell, the man. And that one was not a glowing piece at all. It was really just on the high side of neutral. It was also the work of a low count poster with a republican reference in his name. And early in the postings. And got zero relies.

I found quite a few that commented on specific things he said. **Just as an example** there were a few that commented on his Michelle Bachmann comments. Not praise of Powell the man, but citation of these specific comments.

I found more than a few that commented on the core issue today - his endorsement of the Democratic candidate. Most agreed that it was a good thing for Obama. Not even one of them said what a great guy Powell was. Not one of them said this undoes even some tiny measure of what he did in the war run up ...... or anything else in his sham of a career.

So .... to my question for the flared nostril set: Where is the praise for Powell that you cite and decry?

:applause: Except Barack is singing him praises, so now can we just get on with winning! dance dance dance.

is there a cut-off point?

Days like this, on DU, are why I despair of this country ever getting its shit together.

You despair when a top general endorses a progressive Democrat? That's pretty cynical.

He committed war crimes and crimes against the peace by taking an active part in the execution of the war in Iraq.
His tenure as SecState makes him just as culpable as bush,cheney,rice and anyone else involved in starting the war whether or not he took an active role in its execution.

War crime has nothing to do with whether an overall war was right or wrong but with specific atrocities committed during a war. Any evidence Powell was involved in a specific war crime?

he is responsible for the destruction of towns and villages,the plundering of public and private property deportation and ill treatment of civilians and POW's whether or not he actually committed the crimes himself.
His role in the planning,preperations and execution of the war also makes him responsible for crimes against the peace.
Persons at his level of goverment do not have to physically commit a war crime to be held liable for such crimes.Their involvement in the upper level functions of the offending goverment is enough to charge them with war crimes and crimes against the peace.

As I said "war crimes" doesn't mean every act in an unjust war is a crime. You can have war crimes in any war, even a war such as WW2.

Or just keep throwing up strawmen, it seems to be what you're better at.

the effect by saying it is going to put off Dems because Dems don't like Powell.

It must have been a huge disappointment to them when after lurking on DU they found DUers were universally contented with the endorsement. So of course the trolls started in on trying to change that situation by creating disrupter OPs, but all their trolling is doing is outing the wingnuts.

As one with that reputation, I can tell ya, well, not really much. I just keep posting anyway.

LOL

:hi:

or GD:P

:shrug:

I don't see him getting any kudos here.

he wiped off a lot of that shit he's been bathing in for years.
I was shocked he mentioned not wanting more right wing supreme court judges
slamming the hate and his party.

He still stinks, he just wiped it off he didn't wash it off

Were you to have posted exactly that as an OP, I would count in among the anti-Powell threads.

Is it not enough that just the acceptance of Powells endorsement is in itself a form of praise? Or a form of forgiveness letting him off the hook.

He has his own personal motive here. Just as he had when he promoted the attack on Iraq.

No I doubt anyone is going to risk all out praise for Powell , this would then raise question to his intent and motive and might even void out his endorsement.

No one is going to risk that. So I don't expect to see praise but give it some time and this too might boil up for the muck. I would not rule out future praise just down the road a piece.

.... somewhere down the road?

He did allow mass murder through his actions. So with that, he should not even be allowed to have a public voice in the elections , he should step back into the darkness he promoted and live with that.

Even if his action endorsing Obama gathers some votes is this really how we need votes by kicking over a rotten log and ignore the slime beneath it?

Who's to say it is the un-decided who will be swayed by his endorsement or conservatives who might have a conscience. You are not going to alter the minds of the repubs or alter the past to save the future.

I have only stated what I felt about Powell and his past and his endorsement.

I have no idea what will come in the future and if people praise him in the future that is up to them, I have nore desire any control over that.

What people do is completely up to them as it should be. I only have a problem when things are forced on people or when the past is forgotten as if now all that was done is done and we are supposed to move on even when others are left behind in one form or another.

Powell will have to live with his decisions but to bring it back and act like he has now seen some light in not acceptable to me. Let him seek redemption in his belief system but stay out of politics.

There are better people out there to endorse Obama , what we don't need is some fellow who jumps to the team which he feels is winning to help his own career.

And secondly we've all made mistakes so I refuse to condemn Powell for his especially when his current statements on Iraq show he's unwilling to continue the mistake.

McCain on the other hand continues to push for mistaken policy and rhetoric and his judgment only seems to get worse as facts become known.

If we had we would be lifers behind bars no doubt.

Powell has had his hands in war for most of his career and now to say there is no proof this is a career move two weeks before the elections. He had years to come out about this if this was his sole intent yet he has not so what other common sense conclusion can one come to?

You can say Obamas advisors asked him or that it was in Powells own interst. What else is left this late in the game?

For one thing Obama and McCain haven't been running for 7 years but for maybe 20 months.

On Meet the Press he said he wanted to wait and make the right decision between Obama and McCain and the case against McCain for him was made by the way McCain's behaved only in the past 4 months or so.

He may have feared he'd be accused of supporting Obama just because of his race if he jumped the gun on this.

Maybe before McCain began such a nasty, irresponsible campaign Powell really felt choosing between McCain and Obama was a tough choice. Many independents felt that way until McCain moved to the right.

Taking part in starting a war of aggression is not making a mistake.Such things are only done with forethought and planning.
Even if he did not have anything to do with starting the war,as a high goverment official,he is still liable for his actions.

First it's "done with forethought and planning" then it's "if he did not have anything to do with starting the war."

As a responsible goverment official he is still liable.
Besides,the 'even if..' statement is a moot point since it is documented that he took part in the preperations for the war.

The good is oft interred with their bones."

I read that somewhere.

Hates anyone to the right of Dennis Kucinich.

after that I'll go back to the entire sum of what I know about Powell

including the Mei Lai coverup and the Iraq UN speech.

People are actually so misinformed that they think powell didn't lie at the U.N.

..... tends to be like when shit like this makes its passage through the fan blades.

But yeah ....... our side has its own version of dead enders.

and you don't even check GD-P where they are getting all excited because Obama might have this most honorable man as part of his administration? Jesus fucking christ, no further comment. you are a waste of bandwidth.

You're a flaming asshole.

I said right in the OP .... I

Checked

4

Pages

Of

GD


You so fucking ignorant you missed that?


To quote you: "Jesus fucking christ, no further comment. you are a waste of bandwidth."

Have a nice day, sweetie. :::smooooch::::

my fire is reserved, not for the powell endorsement, which is actually not a surprise, but for the responses of some DUers.

Since I've always seen Obama as center-right politician, having more in common with moderate republicans than with the traditional democratic base, a republican endorsement isn't going to surprise me.

The DUer who suggested Powell for Secretary of State...that fans the flames. The man's record, I hope, puts him beyond consideration. Again, I hope.

As a matter of fact, when past presidents have included a token person from the opposing party in their administration, that has never bothered me. I never thought it was more than a token, a political play, but I was okay with it.

I'm not okay with it this time around. Republicans, with complicit Democratic assistance, have committed enough atrocities in the last 8 years that I don't want to "reach across the aisle." Let them come back to the aisle and do the reaching.

DUers, and you aren't the only one, that suggest that what we think about the endorsement doesn't matter also fan flames. Just different flames.

We don't need to be marginalized further. We don't need to participate in our own marginalization. What we think does matter, and it should matter. What is the point of DU, if not to be able to express those opinions? If some are upset by the endorsement, I may not feel the same, but I certainly think their opinions are valid and should be recognized.

It's certainly possible to neither celebrate it, nor decry it, and still not like being told that opinions of voting democrats don't matter.

Are much more willing to be inclusive of the more liberal and leftist members of the party than vice versa. They label us as closet Bush supporters, being DINOs etc.

The worst thing is how quick they are to shit on an endorsement that will clearly help our candidate and possibly boost his support significantly among independents.

I am less concerned with the endorsement itself than I am with the outrage that some DUers don't appreciate Colin Powell or view him as an ally.

As I've said repeatedly in other threads, Powell is not my ally. I don't care one way or another about his endorsement, as long as he doesn't end up a cabinet member.

I care that other DUers attack criticism of Powell.

There's a distinct difference that too many can't seem to comprehend.

No one is attacking criticism of Powell. We're simply appalled that you're so consumed with contempt for Powell you're shitting on an endorsement that put a final nail in the coffin of McCain's campaign.

Please find someplace, any place, where I am "shitting on an endorsement."

You won't, because I didn't. Yes, I have a healthy level of contempt for Powell. He's earned it. I didn't express much of anything about the endorsement itself. As a matter of fact, I've said in a few different ways that it wasn't the endorsement that bothers me, it was the propensity of some democrats to, not just welcome the endorsement, but try to paint over the man's record, and to welcome a possible role in an Obama administration.

I'd suggest that some people are wound so tight that they react without comprehending the message, if you think I'm "shitting on an endorsement." I'm not wound that tight. I have no emotional investment in this election. A strategic interest, of course, but nothing that fills me with inspiration or rage. Not that I don't understand why people are so tightly wound. I, too, suffered through 8 years of GWB and 2 failed elections. I just left any hope for AUTHENTIC change behind last January, and I've had lots of time to get over it. It's been a strategic, not a personal, issue for me for 10 months now.

I voted last weekend, and I'm watching the final spectacle on the field from the sidelines.

I'd also wonder who the "we" are in your "we're simply appalled..."

Are you speaking for DU now, or just for yourself? Because I know I didn't ask you to speak for anyone else, and I also know that there are plenty of DUers who actually ARE upset with the endorsement, having read their comments.

I came here because I could question politicians and policies. However...that isn't the case anymore.
And the DU'ers who wanted powell for SOS?
Obama said this am that Powell has his pick of what he wants in his administration.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081020/ap_on_el_pr/obama
WASHINGTON – With or without a formal title, Colin Powell will have Barack Obama's ear if the Democratic presidential candidate wins the White House in the Nov. 4 election, the candidate said Monday.

"He will have a role as one of my advisers," Barack Obama said on NBC's "Today" in an interview aired Monday, a day after Powell, a four-star general and President Bush's former secretary of state, endorsed him.

"Whether he wants to take a formal role, whether that's a good fit for him, is something we'd have to discuss," Obama said.

This does nothing but solidify my thoughts(and I am being generous) of obama being a centrist right-leaning "democrat".

Not that he is "right-leaning". Surrounding himself with intelligent, moderately viewed advisers is something which shows mature leadership skills.

This doesn't substitute for Obama's own views unless every adviser he picks is center-right like Powell. That won't be the case.

Tall, camera, sound-bite, and media friendly.

Characteristics that mean little to me.

Let me know when Obama surrounds himself with someone who is NOT center-right.

Because you'll just label anyone I list as "center-right." Anyone to the right of Kucinich.

Hey, how about Susan Rice, Obama's foreign policy adviser? She's not center-right.

you will label anyone to the right of the Bush admin as "center," and anyone a hair to the left of that as the "fringe left."

For the record, I base my evaluation of right/left on a global comparison, rather than a national comparison.

Since you ask, I consider Susan Rice, based on limited information, to be in the center.

Obama's stance on foreign policy is different than mine. He's not against war, just "dumb war," even though he's willing to fund "dumb wars" and keep them going. I'm against using the military as an instrument of international policy. I believe Rice is open to using the military in that way. At the same time, I agree with her that more attention should be paid to Darfur. Her current emphasis on a UN-AU peacekeeping force, that is; not her previous interest in unilateral military action.

I'm not in a hurry to take the military into Pakistan, and I don't support unilateral military action in other nations under the umbrella of the broken and bogus "war on terror."

I disagree with Ms. Rice in some areas, and would prefer a foreign policy adviser that put diplomacy front and center, reserving the military for actual defense of the nation, rather than as a tool to further the nation's economic and corporate interests, or to manipulate foreign policy in any other way. That puts me further to the left than she.

I guess you could say that, while I'm further to the left, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

Center means "to the right of Bush" then you must be saying Obama is even farther right if he's "center-right."

I'm unsure how any progressive can still bitch and moan about the Democratic candidate when it's a guy like Obama after 8 years of neoconservative foreign policy.

Maybe you just don't mind foreign policy driven by ideology as long as it's your ideology. That's perhaps why you are so intent on labeling Obama as "right".

and if you can tell the difference between "bitching" and real policy differences.

Obama is slightly to the right of center. "Center-right." While there are a lot of ways to measure a position in the political spectrum, I personally prefer this one, because it's a global, not national, perspective, and because it is based on record, not campaign propaganda:



http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2


Edited to add: on this grid, I am southwest of center in the southwest quadrant; not anywhere near Obama. I find the placements accurate.

This is Democratic Main Street, with all that entails.

Thanks for "getting" it.

:hi:

Blivolating Blue Dogs of trickle-down Kool-Aid who howl in chorus make it seem otherwise. They're confusing Democrat with Democratic. Centrist is an oxymoron when applied to the democratic process. Democrat is something that you declare, even Joe Lieberman declares he's a Democrat. Maybe they want everyone to like them or maybe that no one hates them.

Is what's destroying the democratic process. People who label and divide everyone.

Party first smacks of "my country, right or wrong." a sophomoric and ignorant stance. Fact is we no longer have a choice in candidates as regards their substance from the primary level to general election. We are given a choice at the primary level of corporate pigs and choice between the prize pigs in the general election.

Yellow Dogs don't understand expedience nor do we want to. Expedience wears a pink tu-tu.

Where did I advocate ANY FUCKING THING with respect to Powell's 'rehabilitation, appointment to an Obama cabinet, or even being supplied with unused toilet paper?

I asked open ended questions. It was YOU who ascribed motive.

And therefore it is YOU who are off base and trying to dictate thought.



I believe Powell long ago transcended rehabilitation. I think he's a war criminal and has been for a long time.

I think his endorsement of Obama is a good thing politically. It is all upside and no downside - **politically** (note: NO morality in that statement).

I don't actually give a rat's as what YOU think .... except when you ascribe shit to me for which there is no evidence.

I never suggested what **anyone** should think about the endorsement; only that whatever you think about it doesn't mean jack shit, politically (note: NO morality in that statement either).

Next time you try to tell people what YOU think they actually said or, even more egregious, what **YOU** think they were thinking, take a deep breath .... and maybe just hold it until reason again catches up with you.

I could have written the exact same advice back to you.

I see more clearly than most, thanks; my vision isn't clouded by partisanship. While I'm a registered democrat, I'm ruled by issues, not party.

I don't believe I ascribed any motive to you whatsoever. I responded to your question. I'm not even "breathing fire" over the Powell endorsement, which, if you read again, is pretty clear.

I honestly don't "get" your attack stance at this point. When you ask a question, is it because you want to attack the answer, or because you want to know?

I don't think I've said anything at all, in this OR ANY OTHER THREAD, about your position on rehabilitation, etc.; I objected, in a different thread, to the idea that any group's opinions "don't mean jack shit." I didn't comment at all on YOUR opinion about Powell, here or there.

:wtf:

As a matter of fact, you seem more worked up over the Powell endorsement than I am. I'm beginning to feel like I dropped down the wrong rabbit hole, where everything is distorted beyond comprehension.

I can only conclude that, with just 2 weeks to go, people are operating on hair-triggers. I've already voted; I'm just hanging out for an extended wait for results. I've never expected a positive outcome, so I should probably lay low for a few weeks and allow the election to grind to a conclusion before I offer up any further thoughts.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You really ought to get away from DU every now and then.

Spending quality time with the authentic left, and living in a hard-right region, allows me to recognize the center when I see it.

:hi:

It's the "right" part I'm not seeing.

:banghead:

From Mai Lai to Iraq this man a served as a facile tool. Sure he's smart, court jesters have to be.

Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte judged him harshly with racially charged epitaphs out of a sense of betrayal. After Mai Lai I judged him and have simply observed since. Mr. Powell is both the "go" and the "get" in "go along to get along" or "if you can't beat them, join them."

No substance, he's just the other teams' water boy now.

"racially charged epitaphs out of a sense of betrayal"


In other words the same shit Limbaugh pulled when analyzing this endorsement. The things Belafonte said strongly bordered on racism.

hue, however inappropriate his remarks, than Mr. Powell. Mr. Belafonte felt betrayed by this ingratiating tool we call Colin Powell.

Which is the same crap Rush Limbaugh does. It's that crap that turns politics into a hate fest, it's pretty dangerous. Hateful speech is dangerous.

has every right in the world to look down on a boot-licking lackey, as do you, as do I. Mr Belafonte shares background, homeland, ethnicity, and color with Mr. Powell. Having so much in common with Powell he may have been worried about being painted with the same brush as this moral failure.

Perhaps he should have said, "why brother, why?" but that wouldn't have been archived as a quote by the M$M and we wouldn't be able to Google it today. Mr. Belafonte made a strong statement with conviction, then he defended it. If everyone had that kind of fiber there wouldn't have been a FISA vote, a foolish banker bail-out, Iraq, 9/11, Clinton blowjob, and JFK might have been holding his little brothers hand in the hospital.

Our world needs accountability not apologists. Our roads need a left and a right lane and those who walk down the middle get run over, invariably. Take a side in right and wrong, dark and light, on and off for Sweet Jeebus sake. "Well maybe," is not a life choice. Those who straddle the fence get splinters in their ass...and they deserve them.

Redemption is a personal thing between individuals, it is not a group-grope. This individual says FU to Powell and his 40+ years of enabling evil on the planet and the human race.

No one is following this thread or threads through other posts so you might want to give up on trying to convince just me of Mr. Powell's integrity and sterling service...it ain't gonna happen.

Your black and white, with us or against us mentality sounds like someone else I know.

I am not indecisive or a fence sitter on issues I just approach politics on the basis of reason and moderation. Gearing politics to the extremes leads to undemocratic governance because it leaves no room for dissent.

You and Powell seem to have more in common than your votes.

I told you numerous instances, without links because that violates DU rules, in your last thread. Apparently you can't be bothered to read mere replies.

Fuck you.

What vote do I have in common with Powell, you fucking asshole?

I don't pay attention to you, usually, cuz you don't have shit to say.

And this thread to which you just responded is about 24 hours old ..... the looking up cited in the OP is sorta old to matter much.

But you go on ... show your ass.

:eyes:

Sure he made a flimsy case to the U.N. he knew was flimsy. However i have no idea why he may have done so. One's personal reasons may be legion. None of us know what type of pressure he may have been under to defile his name. Sure many have died, and suffered, billions spent. Would it have been different if he had went the opposite way? Chances are the war would have went on anyway, nothing would have stopped them in their desire to rob, and steal.

So many around here, just like anywhere else love too sit on their high perches and crow about how it should have been done, or how they would have conducted themselves. Fact is not a damned one knows what they would would have done no matter how much the jack themselves off into self righteousness. The truth is all not a damn one has been in such a position.

Reminds me of someone asking me if i would sellout for a few million. Had to answer honestly and tell them, i did not know as no one had ever offered that much before.

If so, the endorsement is an absolute good. Period, end of file.

I see no evidence that Powell has moved "leftward." Powell said during the 2000 election that he would be happy to serve under a Democrat or a Republican and that it didn't mean much to him. Powell is responsible for cheerleading a nonsensical war. I seriously doubt that he has changed--other than realizing how extreme the Republicans actually are. Powell will cheerlead for CFR once again and he will help orchestrate the move to Pakistan and whatever comes next after that in pursuit of the dream of Westernizing the Middle East by force.

I also don't like that neoconservatives are embracing Obama any more than I would if neonazis were embracing Obama.

For one no one said Powell moved leftward but this endorsement highlights that Obama's candidacy is supported by people of varying opinions.

Heaven forbid Powell say he's willing to work with Democrats or Republicans...didn't Obama say the same thing?

I've wondered the same thing as three posters so far have told me that Powell has been praised, lauded, and metaphorically knighted.

Yet each time I've asked where to find that praise, it turns out that the 'praise' is nothing more than simply refraining from demonizing the man.

Which is, as I remember from my Logic class so many years ago, nothing more than a Logical Fallacy
(A v B = A v -A)