Churches mestatasizing into government: isn't that the OPPOSITE of what this country was founded on?

I was taught in school that a major reason for the founding of the U.S. was 'freedom of religion' and to escape religious tyranny in Europe. Right-wingers frequently refer to the "founding fathers" but wasn't one of the major points of the founding fathers the separation of church and state? How can they justify merging them back together?

I just had this same discussion with a right-wing evangelical relative who adores Palin specifically because she DOES inject religion into her politics.

According to this relative, in order to be a "good Christian," you CAN'T separate the two - that's counterintuitive to their proselytizing mission.

And, just as the fundamentalists interpret the bible in their own way, they interpret the Constitution and other documents (personal and otherwise) written by The Founders in their own fundie way.

They're convinced the United States WAS FOUNDED with the intent to be a Christian nation.

It's hopeless.

a good Christian doesn't believe in the separation of church and state, which is a founding principle of America.

To their way of thinking, there is nothing definitive regarding the separation of church and state. (Wiki: The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.)

That means nothing to them since it's not explicitly documented as a founding principle.

No, they don't believe in separation of church and state but THEY are the REAL Americans and they know this nation was founded on Christian ideals and principles, didn't you know that?


;)

however, I do know that there is a lot of good christians who are good Americans and believe that the two should be kept separate. Even here in the babble belt I know plenty who feel that way. They also don't discuss their religions unless asked.

on edit: you only hear about the bad ones because they are the most vocal.

I feel the same way. I know several religious fanatics who will bend scripture, laws, words - whatever gets in their way - to further their own argument. Most believe that God specifically speaks to them and they use that disillusionment to justify their rule breaking.

I consider myself a Christian. I'm wise enough to know that our founding fathers came here and created our constitution and government to escape their own brand of fanaticism. Separation of church and state is a good thing, a necessary thing. And religion does not necessarily equate with morality.

To me, Christianity is about love, tolerance and compassion. God has never called me up on my cell phone and told me that I should do a particular thing or behave in a particular way. It is my believe that He did, however, give me a conscience that generally guides me and lets me know when I've done something that I probably should not have done.

The simple fact is that I should be free to enjoy my religious beliefs as long as those beliefs don't infringe upon the rights of others. However, when the fanatics start trying to control and mold government based on their religious beliefs and insist that theirs are the only proper beliefs - then that is infringing upon the rights of others.

that most of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence and drafted the Constitution were "Christian," in the sense that every white person who wasn't Jewish was probably brought up in some church or other in those days, but they were NOT "Christian" in the distorted sense that today's evangelicals and fundamentalists use it.

The prevailing theology among the intelligentsia (which is what the Founding Fathers were, or else they wouldn't have even been allowed to vote, much less represent their colonies) in that day was Deism, the doctrine that God create the universe but didn't intervene after that. They may have attended Congregational, Episcopal, or Catholic churches as a matter of social custom, but they were NOT evangelicals. Not even close.

and weakening the governments stance on separation of church and state. Sin taxes anyone? How about blue laws? For those who don't know about blue laws, some states you can buy food and dress clothes on a sunday, but you can't buy work clothes or a hammer and nails. You forget Prohibition started at the religious level and forced a republicon controlled government into enacting the law.

Even Tom Jefferson had his run ins with the religious trying to force Christan values onto the country. Many of the laws since 1776 have been enacted by religion, remember divorce laws before the 70's? Even sex laws are religion based, think about it, women can give sex away for free or a few beers or a movie and dinner but they can't charge someone for giving sexual favors thats a crime.

The religious then used fear to make it legal, in area's of high prostitution drug and violent crimes increase, never mind that if it was legal then crime wouldn't be a problem. So to say separation of Church and states has been obscured over the years that today we find ourselves with Church's demanding more power and say so in how the government is run, plus enactment of religion based laws.

The 60's and early 70's are just breaks between religions take over of the country. Remember the 50's saw the republicons putting god on money and public buildings as well as the pledge to the flag using fear of communists running around the country under mining american "freedoms". Sound familiar?

i would like to know where i cannot buy a hammer and some coveralls on a Sunday...

sP

Pa used to be like that, only food and TP on Sunday.

-Hoot

i KNOW you can buy hammer, nails, coveralls, lumber...whatever on Sunday in TN (at least the several places i have been there). the only laws of that nature that i know of today relate to alcohol and sex shops (which i don't think should be restricted from their operating hours)...

sP

in 79/80 when I was living in Dallas. I live in Michigan so blue laws have never been a problem here, my point was blue laws stemed from the religion forcing laws onto everyone. It doesn't matter if they took them off the books, they are just an example like prohabition was.

Certain types of alcoholic beverages are unavailable for sale on Sundays and specifically christian holidays. Given my days off are in the middle of the week, and I am NOT NOT NOT a christian, I am subject to specifically christian blue laws.

I have always had a problem with that.

as it shows that religion's influence over our codified laws is waning. you said you 'can't' buy a hammer and nails or certain types of clothing on Sunday...and i don't deny that this WAS true...but it no longer is. the only real vice that people seem to still allow restriction of sale on Sunday is alcohol, and while i don't agree with that either, it should be an indication that religion really does have less of a pull than it did.

is religion and religious fundamentalism/fanaticism fighting back? heck yeah! why? because they see their influence on ACTUAL LAW fading so they ratchet up the rhetoric and bleat about persecution and really push in the one area where they still have influence...the right wing of republican party.

sP

Bergen County, New Jersey. North Dakota- all retail until 12 pm. South Carolina 1:30 pm.
Like you said, not as prevalant as it used to be, but there is some still lingering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws

but legislating that is questionable. It sure was nice to give most workers (not counting police, fire departments, etc.) a day off.

and is a result of the 2%'ers using philanthropy as a tax break, and killing 2 birds with one stone. Look at who they fund.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/index.html@sort=title_tagline.html#org

Trying to stop that actually wastes a lot of energy.

that didn't want the government telling them how they should worship.

Knuckle-draggers like that. Less painful.

2 words; Carpet burn :)