What are your opinions about reference to holidays in schools, particularly Halloween?

I'm wondering what you think about holidays in general, and Halloween in particular, in schools.

In many schools, both public and private, anything having to do with Halloween is forbidden. A small percentage of parents do not want their children exposed to Halloween on religious grounds (although Halloween isn't generally considered a religious holiday).

Is it part of our shared culture and thus something children should be allowed to work and play with in schools?

Should it be treated like religious themes -- not discussed in school?

Does the school have an obligation to meet the needs of families who are offended by Halloween, or do families have an obligation to raise their children within a diverse American culture?

At what point do either of those ideas -- shielding children or offending people -- go too far?

Your thoughts?

My oldest son went to a small private school for a couple of years where about one third of the faculty was jewish, but they celebrated all holidays. I wish it could be like that today.

If anything, Christmas and Santa Claus are a big part of our shared culture, but my kids have to have a "winter holiday" party. And the music for "winter holidays"...well, let me say that it just sucks! LOL

who aren't allowed to teach some true masterworks because the texts are religious -- even in Latin!

These concerts, however, should include a variety of songs, both sacred and secular. And they should reflect different traditions/cultures.

Maybe their principals don't know that sacred music is allowed, or are afraid of potentially causing controversy.

should be a part of instruction. I think kids learn more when it's hands on and participatory. Learning about world cultures is more important now than it ever has been. I don't understand why this is so flippin' hard to implement in the classroom.

I'm a secular humanist and I think that by making our schools, etc. vacuously secular we are missing out on great aspects of our world's cultures. These parties create a secular environment that I wish reflected the rest of the world, but it doesn't, and when everyone goes home they are back to being safely isolated in their own culture. It would be of much greater service to our society if at these parties we didn't use a blank slate winter theme but showed instead the multiplicity of celebrations that take place (Chanukkah, Christmas, Winter Solstice, New Year's, Kwanzaa (not religious, btw), Pancha Ganapati, et al.) during winter so we can have better understanding about other cultures.

and Jehovah Witness. These are the SAME people who don't want their kids to sing at nursing homes at christmas because they don't want their kids to be saddened about old people being tossed away.

These parents are USELESS - and are bringing their kids up as if reality doesn't exist. Of course, these are the kids who are more likely to get into trouble at Halloween, because they think it's cool to do *satanic stuff* like killing black cats, etc.

I don't know how they really do manage to keep them away from holidays completely -- I mean, the commercial elements alone seem unavoidable! But I suppose having things they consider evil being condoned in school is beyond their limit.

A teacher told me this story the other day: One boy wasn't allowed to hear ANYthing about Halloween, in a school that did allow it. So this boy had to be removed to another room every time she had the children sing Halloween songs. Then the kids had a field trip to a farm or something, and the kids started singing their Halloween songs on the way there. She was concerned but wasn't sure she should tell them to stop. Then she noticed the boy who'd been removed was singing along with them, knowing every word -- evidently he could hear the singing through the wall at school!!

Either celebrate everything, or don't celebrate anything.

Halloween is problematic at many levels. The candy at school is a no-no, and costumes often become a social class issue, with students flaunting expensive store-bought stuff in front of people who can't afford to heat their homes.

I'm not anti-holiday, I'm anti-one-religion's-holiday.

(edited for bad subject/verb agreement)

That could cover a LOT of ground -- lots of faiths and holidays out there! I doubt they could all be celebrated.

(Btw, I'm talking about both public and private schools.)

or concerts, should be termed "holiday" concerts and parties, and include neutral themes such as general gift-giving, VARIOUS forms of music, etc. You have to be careful so as not to "celebrate" any particular religious tradition. You have to be very sensitive to all religious traditions and structure such celebrations so as to not offend or tacitly exclude anyone. But they are still doable, are done in many cases, I have been involved in them, and I think they are a good thing if done right and not overdone. I know some schools that have a Halloween celebration, others that do not. As long as there is no pressure to participate (it is optional) and there are pretty strict rules about what can be worn as far as costumes, etc. I think these things add to the quality of the overall school experience like any other extra. You just need clear and well structured rules and procedures with these and do them according to such established policies. I do think as you go up in grade levels, fade out ALL of the holidays like Thanksgiving, Easter, Valentines Day, St. Patty's Day, etc. From 5th grade up, the middle school level, keep holiday celebrations to Halloween and the Christmas season. At lower levels, use discretion with the others. There's plenty else to "celebrate" such as other extras, the end-of-school-year activities, etc.

Just curious. When I was a kid, my school made a HUGE deal out of Flag Day! Does anyone do that anymore?

...but I likewise don't care that other folks find celebrating them compelling. Different strokes. But I suppose my answer to your question is that schools should not care much, either. Nor should parents get worked up about how schools handle holidays that might or might not be relevant to students.

And their lunch menu shows "Halloween treats" as dessert on 10-31.

I don't agree with everything that a lot of the teachers, administration, and other families there believe, but everyone seems to be tolerant (accepting, even) of other beliefs. (For the record, I am Christian, but of a more liberal denomination than that which runs the school). What is taught there is mainstream Christian and nothing particularly right wing. I have had no complaints thus far.

In the Scholastic election, McCain won overwhelmingly in my son's class, but my son and the handful of other students who voted for Obama were not treated with any disrespect.

If people at a private Christian school can be accepting of students and their families who have dissenting beliefs, then the ones in the public schools should be also.

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:eyes:

Not even trying to be careful

Thanks, mods!

I think it's kind of silly, really.

We still have a parade with kids wearing costumes. However, it's not a "Halloween parade." It's a "book character" parade. Students are supposed to wear a costume representing a character in a book that they have read.

This often results in having to come up with TWO costumes -- one for school and one for trick-or-treating.

Too much.

:shrug:

How is it explained to them that the school can't say "Halloween?"

Ås parents, we have somewhat rebelled in the past by buying plates/napkins/etc. for parties that clearly reflect Halloween themes!

need to butch up and remember they are not constitutionally protected from being offended by secular holidays, even Halloween.

I have no objection to Santa Claus Xmas or Easter Bunny Easter. Just keep the creche and the cross out of it, thanks.

Parents who want to protect their spawn from being subjected to the dominant cultural experiences in this country can home school them and keep them wrapped in cotton batting in the closet between classes.

So much of this is simply secular. There is no religious message.

But to some, like the troll here, Halloween is seen as a religious holiday. So should the school be sensitive to those views, or sensitive to the idea of tolerance? You know? (I happen to agree with you.)

My daughter has both Jewish and Islamic students in her class, and Christian fundamentalists as well. I have no idea what they will do at Christmastime. Last year she also had both Jewish and Islamic students in their class, I don't remember if they called it a Christmas Party or a Holiday party even though I volunteered at it, they sang songs that were about Christmas but not religious, and they also sang the "Dreidel dreidel dreidel, I made it out of clay" song. I am not aware of any such songs relevant to Islam. They did read a story about Ramadan.

They do a pretty traditional Halloween thing though. Our Islamic and Jewish neighbors celebrate Halloween, though I don't know about how most people of those religions handle that holiday.

But anyway, if they change it to a Winter Party and a Harvest Party, I'm fine with that. I don't see how it matters.

along with controversies about teaching evolution and demands for official school prayer. In other words, the Reagan admin pandered to the most extreme fundamentalists in a way that may have been common in the South and lower Midwest but was certainly foreign to the Upper Midwest and the West.

When I was in elementary school in the 1950s, everyone went to some church or other, and NO ONE objected to Halloween. No one. All the schools in town had a Halloween parade, in which all the kids would dress in costumes after lunch and march around their attendance district, and at certain points, groups from different schools would meet up and cheer for each other. Stay-at-home mothers would watch from their front porches or windows and wave at everyone. Then we'd go back to our classroom for juice and cookies. We felt sorry for the junior high kids who didn't get to have Halloween parades anymore.

I was in seventh grade when the Supreme Court banned official school prayer. All of us (all of whom attended some church or other) were astonished. There were public schools where they started the day with a prayer and a Bible passage? Public schools? Not Catholic or Lutheran schools? Our teacher shrugged and said that they did it in some parts of the country. Years later, I asked my grandmother (born 1899) if she had ever had school prayer in Minneapolis. She said no. Neither had my father, who grew up in a small town in Minnesota.

My school system required biology in eighth and tenth grades. Seventh grade was earth science, and ninth grade was physical science. We had to give reports in each of these classes, and we always rolled our eyes when Dave the Jehovah's Witness stood up, because no matter what kind of science we were concentrating on, he always gave a diatribe against evolution. Nobody else objected, though. I had seen Inherit the Wind on TV, but it never occurred to me that anyone in the 1960s, 40 years after the Scopes Trial, would question evolution--and I was a preacher's kid.

Based on this evidence, I would say that the Republicans purposely encouraged fundamentalism (which Karen Armstrong describes as a protest by those who have been harmed by the modern world) and the backlash against the 1960s to build up their party base. Once encouraged (and, I'm convinced, funded under the pulpit by right-wing foundations, or else how could they afford to build instant megachurches?) by the Republicans, the fundamentalists came out of the closet and out of their traditional strongholds.

Thanks for your take on this. I don't know anybody who turned evil from Halloween costumes, either!

Didn't the unholy alliance of rightwing politicians and fundamentalist Christians (and lots of money involved both ways) sort of beget more rightwing fundamentalists? Or were the fundamentalists always there before?

schools were desegregated.

These suburbs sprang up over night with no natural community focal point. They were true bedroom communities. All it took was a couple of fundamentalists inviting neighbors to their "friendly" church, one that provided instant community and one-stop socializing.

I also know that a lot of Sun Belt types moved to the Twin Cities (or more accurately, the outer suburbs of the Twin Cities--they wouldn't be caught dead in the city limits with all those scary dark-skinned people) for "the quality of life," and our political climate has suffered for it.

I never thought of it that way... It sure does seem to be a disproportionately white religious group, doesn't it?!? And in more sparsely populated areas, not cities... And in the south... Somehow I just never connected it with racism this way.

Thanks for this food for thought, Lydia!! :hi:

theology and behavioral norms with the suburban megachurches, the Republicanites have found it nearly impossible to make any inroads in that group--and this after a history of black people voting for Republicans as the party of Lincoln from the Civil War to the New Deal era. I suspect that the members of the African-American churches can smell the racism from miles away.

Look at the cluelessness of right-wingers, who will go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify voting for McCain, mostly by slamming Obama with falsehoods, and then will give what they think is the clincher: "If I'm racist for wanting to vote for a war hero over a Muslim friend of terrorists, why aren't black people racist when they vote over 90% for Obama?"

Duh. They voted overwhelmingly for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton, too.

My kids used to go to a no-holiday school, and that was fine. We did holidays at home, and made them personal.

Now they go to a school that lets the kids dress up for holidays. It's a pain in the arse for me, but my kids like it.

I'm an atheist, and celebrate most holidays -- they may be of religious origin, but their content now is largely secular. I think these holidays are more cultural now than religious...

I collect old books, and all the music readers -- even through the 70s if not later -- included religious Christmas songs. I haven't seen any of that done in years, but I wonder how much sense it makes to kick Frosty the Snowman out of school, too!

It's a fun day for kids. At least that's what it should be. I have zero knowledge of the history of halloween and really don't care. It it has religious roots, they've evaporated. Same with Christamas and Easter for that matter....

If some religions believe Halloween is a religious holiday, and it offends them or they believe it harms their children, should the school ban reference to it? (And I'm talking about even saying the word "Halloween!")

No, schools should not ban halloween even if it offends some. Parents who object can keep their kid home on party day.

Does anybody know of any case law regarding halloween and public schools in the U.S.?

There should be no church/state issue here if Halloween is accepted as a secular holiday, right? Maybe it needs to be conclusively ruled as a secular holiday, despite the cries of "Satan worship!" from the nuts.

So much of it is around the same themes -- seasonal, lightness/darkness, death/rebirth, fertility, all those same things. But then, that's treating religion as myth, and you don't get to do that until college!

In our family Halloween is the holiday for kids. Our daughter wears a costume and I take her trick-or-treating. After we are finished, she helps me hand out candy. But our religious holiday is Samhain. We celebrate that either as a family or with a few friends. Same thing with Christmas/Yule and Easter/Ostara. Christmas and Easter are family holidays when we see our extended family and celebrate being together. Our personal family religious holidays are Yule and Ostara. But I don't mind my daughter learning some of the holiday traditions of the majority culture.

If any of those holidays were so awful to you that you didn't want your children exposed to them at school -- where's the line between what would be your responsibility and what would be the school's? I guess that's what I'm asking.

I'd have to abide by what the school system did. If I don't like it, I have the option of putting my kid in a private school which would cater to my particular religious paranoias.

..."ruining Christmas."

Except those fundie loons ARE genuinely trying to piss on kids' parade.

As a kid, Halloween was one of the special occasions where we were actually in class on the day. Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc...we had off. School holiday.

Dressing up in costume, having fun, eating candy, having a party, and squirming with anticipation for the bus to come and take us home so were could throw on our costumes, and hit the streets to rake in the candy - one of the greatest rituals of youth.

Having the Halloween Party, dressing up, and having the teachers bring candy and those delicious orange frosted cupcakes was the only way that being in school on such an awesome and exciting day for kids was made bearable. When I was small, not one single kid was forbidden from participating, not a single parent had an issue with it throughout all my school years. It's a day of fun and frolic , for Christ's sake, and kids love it!

The fact that fundies are ruining this for their kids, and refusing to let them participate is cruel, IMHO, no matter how badly they want to wrap it in the cloak of Religion and hope people will give them a pass. No pass from me. Let kids be kids!

Once I became an adult, I worked with a wacko fundie who believed among other things, that his wife should not be allowed to work outside the home, except at an "appropriate occupation" which their church deemed ok - a teacher, or a secretary, or something similarly benign and stereotypically feminine. (His words, paraphrased, not mine.)

I asked him if nursing was ok, and he said no because she would "be forced to care for 'undesirables', she'd be 'subjected to male nudity' and she would make more money than him.

Also, he forbade his kids from participating in Halloween, calling it "satanic."

His kids were actually really sweet, and KNEW all about Halloween and how much fun other kids were having. They begged him year after year to reconsider, and he never did.

In retrospect, they probably disowned his psycho ass as soon as they turned 18 and were able to escape his iron fist. The wife would be wise to do the same...

At any rate, I'm all for kids having Halloween fun at school, and have no qualms about saying that any parent who would deprive their kids of it is not nice at all.

Just my .02

I went to one of those Southern public schools where we got Bible stories and prayer all the time.

But we STILL turned Halloween into an all-day festival, where every classroom in my elementary school had different games, where everybody, including the teachers, was in costume. (I never picked up on all that much of a class element to it - nobody had much money, but some kids mothers' were better at sewing than others. Mine rocked!) Nobody got made fun of for having a bad costume, but failing to wear one at all was a sure mark of loserdom.

Then in the evening when we'd all eaten so much candy and pumpkin pie and cupcakes we barely still fit into our costumes, that's when we had the costume pageant.

High point of the year, really. How big a sourpuss do you have to be to begrudge that?

but the fundies managed to ruin the fun in my daughter's district long before she ever started school.

Remember getting to go to school in your costume? In my school, we had a costume pageant where the the person who got the most applause for their costume would win a prize. I remember being soooo proud of my mother made princess costume that won first place in Kindergarten.

that should be used to advance the school's educational mission.

The origin of the word is Old English "halig" (holy) and "daeg" (day).

Holy Day.


Everyone on both sides just needs to relax about the whole thing. Religion is a part of human culture. It will seep into our secular lives from time to time and it isn't a big deal. An elementary school Halloween party is hardly the state establishment or endorsement of a particular religion.

If I ran the zoo, anyone who bitched about this kind of thing would be given a list of my chores to do! They are obviously not busy enough.

not just that certain fundies say celebrating Halloween is evil.

The probelm is, they consider its whole underlying religious/cultural tradition "evil."

This is a direct attack on Wiccans and other pagans, and comes close to being one on members of churches like mine (Episcopal) which observe All Saints Day and All Souls Day at the same time of year. And then there's Day of the Dead in Mexican culture.

Like Lydia, I know this wasn't a problem in the past. Yes, Reaganism and the whole rise of the religious right have something to do with it, but I think these people feel directly threatened by the fact that other religious traditions are now treated as legitimate in the larger culture. And this is one of their ways of fighting back. Too bad children have to pay for it by having these fun celebrations banned!

I don't care if people want to dress up and eat candy on Halloween, but the annual slurs on witches gets tiresome.

Edit - can't spell my own durn holiday lol!

of course in those days halloween was considered to be a fun, secular holiday, not "hail satan" or whatever the excuse is being used for not having halloween parties in a safe environment like the schools

i went to public school and we definitely had parties, made little paper jack o lanterns and i don't remember what all

it was cute

much better than valentine's day which is a shitty popularity contrast that probably SHOULD be banned to all under age 30! :-)

Parents always have the right to remove their kids from school for special events they disagree with.

Easy.

In fact, I think those a**hole Christians who are trying to ban it just don't want anyone to have any fun!

I would love it if X-mas were stricken from public schools, but I'm enough of a realist to know that will never happen.

:evilgrin: Hail Satan

Wait, I take that back. I'll be happy when they do that. :P

So you don't like Halloween. What, you boycott Walmart/Target/tv from October 1st through the post holiday sale so as to not be exposed to the evil that it is?

What about Christmas or Easter?

I feel sorry for kids these days. The religious nutjobs are so entrenched that they influence far too much, and we pander to them just because.

I think children should KNOW about major American holidays of many faiths, particularly the music and other cultural expressions.

I think denying children the richness of world religious culture is doing them a disservice, and leaving them open to fundie influences at home. :P

Children look forward to these little celebrations to break up the monotony of school.

We had Halloween parties and no one I know left their church because of them.

Unless you're a Wicca/Pagan. Then you are celebrating Samhain, but that and Halloween are NOT the same thing. My school called it a "Fall Harvest Party" instead of Halloween party to appease the religious nutcases.

You just have to include ALL of them, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Wiccan. I know the fundies won't like that and they will bitch and moan until the schools drop them all. So it's either all or none.

And by celebrating, I really mean just teaching about them in schools, maybe doing a few songs or having a party that includes the food or whatever.

As for Halloween, well it really has nothing to do with demons or witchcraft or whatever.

I don't see it as religious at all, but a time to dress up in public.

If someone sees it as offensively religious, they just don't have to participate. I think it is cultural enough, and a-religious enough and fun enough that kids should be allowed to participate and talk about it in schools.

and talk about them. I assume you're talking about elementary school children.

the issue, really, is nutty adults, whether they're teachers or parents.

my kids went to school with kids from 39 diff. countries (a public school in married student housing for the local U, among others.) People got along. People shared their cultures... what their cultures did.

holidays were teaching opportunities for kids.

the problem is when parents or teachers want to use these occasions as ways to bludgeon others into accepting theirs is the "one true faith." People with that mindset were outnumbered where I am and, I suppose, they either didn't say anything or their concerns were handled by the principal.