I want GLBT DUers to know that you have my respect and my sympathy.

While the election of Barack Obama shows how far this country has come toward the goal of equal rights for all, the success of anti-gay ballot initiatives across the country make clear how far we still need to go. No other Americans are forced to have their basic human rights put up for a popular vote every two years. It is a disgrace that should have ended years ago.

No doubt it is particularly frustrating to see so many DUers in a state of euphoria from the presidential election, without appearing to give much attention to the incredibly disappointing defeats faced by GLBT Americans -- and by all Americans who care about equal rights.

I suspect it may be little comfort, but I think it is worth mentioning that having a Democratic president will have an important impact in the cause of civil rights for GLBT Americans, at very least because of the Supreme Court (which is where, inevitably, the issue of equal rights for GLBT Americans will be resolved for good). Six out of nine Supreme Court justices will be in their 70s or 80s during the next 4 years (Stevens 88, Ginsburg 75, Scalia 72, Kennedy 72, Breyer 70, Souter 69). We need new justices who care about equal rights.

The fact that fundamental human rights are still denied to GLBT Americans in the vast majority of this country makes a mockery of this country's self-professed values of freedom and equality. The election on Tuesday was another heartbreaking reminder. I want you to know that you have my respect and my sympathy.

but i'd also like to know, what is it going to take to make people UNDERSTAND that this is a Civil Rights issue?

We need a lot of discussion about this, and I hope DU will be the place to do it.

In a word- time. Although I am saddened by the prop 8 vote, I think that there is a silver lining. The vote was close. Ten years ago, it would have been a blowout. Twenty years ago, gay marriage was unthinkable. Fifty years ago, the courts had to rule to allow inter-racial marriage in California. This is a setback. In spite of this setback, we are making progress.

Now, it is time to build upon that progress. Educating the public must be the first priority.

is an idea whose time has come. We may be taking a step back, but we will be taking two steps forward very soon. It's a process of changing minds and hearts.

A source I have in DC (yes, I have sources) tells me he feels he can't do as much as he wants on the court. He has an agenda and he wants to teach and to write -- he can't write on the court. So, he's itching to get off. Obama may get a chance to reshape the court.

in the White House. He may have been thinking of this if McCain had won, but has canceled any plans due to the result of the election.

And it may be the fact that he is a hard-core ideologue. Apparently, he thinks he can push his ideology much further from outside the court. The court allows you the opportunity to make some big decisions, but you really don't get to pick and choose, at least as an individual. You have to take what comes to you, and only the cases that the other justices agree they want to rule on. Outside the court, he's free to write and lecture and join think tanks, etc. Apparently, he feels he have much more opportunity in that role.

Supreme Court Justice thinks he can be more effective as a private citizen?
Well, then, time we think of ourselves as more powerful than a Supreme Court Justice!
First time I've been inspired by Scalia.

Cheney/duck deal ...

PLUS, on your side of argument, he may want to move on with his fellow crooks?

Might have been a big payoff for 2000... ??? !!!

Their "public service" usually lasts just long enough to inflict damage to the country, and to insure a lucrative book deal, speaking tour, and private sector job down the road.

...of a butcher shop in Jersey waiting for Fat Tony?

Fuggedabahdit!

do they become CONsequential?

Just wonderin'

Jobs & rewards for entire family ...

What is amazing is that most people don't seem to be talking about this at all. I've had one person talk to me about how awful this has been for GLBT Americans.

I hope that with a Dem Congress and Dem POTUS, we can make some repair of the damage done after years of these horrible state marriage bans for certain groups of people.

I am ashamed at my state, Florida, where the measure passed with over 60% voting in favor of discrimination.

If the statistics are to be believed, I am puzzled that so many African Americans don't see this as a civil rights issue and tend to be less in favor of same sex marriage than the population at large.

And to all those who thought the strenghten and protect marriage with these same sex bans, I would like a way to tell them they have made me feel worse about my own marriage. I feel guilty that I could join in a legal union with the man I love, but others are denied that most basic right. I know that's illogical, but it's how I feel.

to be religious, and religion is the driving force behind this discrimination- same way many whites used religion as a way to justify racism.

In all the celebration and excitement, I also see headlines about bans and Cal Prop 8 and my heart sinks. We think we've come so far, but we just trade one form of discrimination for another.

:hug:
KJ

I am straight and married but immensely saddened that people have so much hate in their heart.

There is a special place in hell for those people.

Compare this to the once-respectable TPM, which proudly ran Yes on 8 ads right up until Election Day and strongly defended their decision to do so.

Since the election, however, TPM appears to have been almost totally silent on any of the LGBT fallout from the election -- almost as if they're ashamed that their stand might have contributed in a small way to the success of these disgusting anti-gay ballot measures. (And given the large number of Obama supporters who voted for Prop. 8, it's not a stretch to assume this.)

I assume it'll go to the State Supreme Court, then get appealed to SCOTUS.

The ad barrage for Prop 8 was particularly slimey and persistent. Thanks for your comments.

It cannot be appealed SCOTUS (Thank goodness, given the current composition of the court).

It is hard for me to be entirely happy knowing of this hit to the gay community and my heart is heavy for them because I know this uphill battle will not be easy at all for them with all the hatred and bigotry they face =(

When I heard about prop. 8 passing, I wanted to cry for the GLBT in our country. I was happy and excited about the Obama win yet heavy hearted knowing about this set back.

:(

to help advance the cause of fundamental human rights for all every chance I get.

It really means a lot to know that we have solid support in our quest for true equality.
It is taking more time than we hoped, more time than it should. But we will get there.

And when we get there, we will remember those who stood with us.

it all depends on his actions, or inaction's, as the case ultimately proves to be. Recall that what we have to go on at this point are Obama's statements concerning this issue, those being "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage".

As a gay man in a loving and committed relationship I can say for myself that I will not hold my breath waiting for anything positive with respect to full access to equal rights for the LGBT community. I think the best we can realistically hope for in an Obama administration would be an end to DADT and minutely possibly the elimination of DOMA. I don't expect any impassioned speeches to the country on behalf of equal marriage rights for the gay community.

How utterly tragic. I can only hope that one of the legal appeals works.

My hope is that this is their last gasp. The younger generation isn't with this hate. I think in the very near future we'll move beyond this ugliness.

When the top of both tickets expressly did not support gay marriage. Was there some kind of wink and nod from either of them? Were we supposed to believe that oh, he'll fix it when he gets elected.

Obama/Biden won the White house based on what they stood for, and people seemed to have voted for them and against gay marriage.

During the most watched VP debate in history was this quote...



What part of that statement aren't you undertanding?

Obama and Biden have both talked up absolute equality, even as they've dissed same-sex marriage itself. On the balance, their rhetoric was the most GLBT-inclusive ever, from any major party ticket. If you listen to them speak, you can hear the cognitive dissonance at work, and both seem uncomfortable talking about their professed opposition to marriage equality. It's painful to listen to their contortions.

I think either will be willing to step aside and let same-sex marriage happen, though each has nerfed his chance to advocate for it in the next year or two. It's a lie, from both of them, I think--they just felt they had to take this confused stance to avoid hemorrhaging votes.

I'll hope to hear them both recant in the next few years.

to the wacky wingnut right for votes.

it was about supporting a NO vote on Prop 8.

President Elect Obama did eventually come out against the Prop 8.

Prop 8 was to reverse the CSC ruling in favor of gay marriage which had already passed.

No one had to do anything but rally the base to go vote NO!

That's all, silently, in the booth, vote NO!

Instead, if I recall, the narrow margin loss could have been averted if 37% of Dems did not vote with Frakus on the Family and other RW monied groups.

They were all too willing to pander to the base hatred of the slight majority rather than show real moral leadership.

now that they have won.

after all--we are not truly free until we ALL are free.

When minorities dont stick together, we all get roan over. Its factual now in California how large the black and Mexican votes were in favor of prop 8 and thats almost as heartbreaking as this disgusting amendment itself.

by the way so many blacks and Latinos voted in favor of Prop 8. I'm not entirely sure it's just about them being more religious. (I have a friend who's a devout Catholic senior lady, and she's totally okay with gay marriage.) Anybody out there remember their Sociology 100? There's a reason minorities don't always stick together. When people belong to an oppressed group, they often take it out by hating other oppressed groups. It's like that song "I am Everyday People" from Sly and the Family Stone.

Yeah, we gotta do more education. A few years back I read an article that the biggest factor in attitudes towards gays is whether they know a gay person. That's so true. Back around 1981, when I worked as a file clerk in a government office, the women in the file room would often talk about their friends and family during lunch and coffee breaks. One day, one of them, Kim, told us about a good friend of her family had just come out of the closet. Kim and her husband accepted this man being gay because they had known him for many years, and knew he was a good guy.

I'm a straight woman who has a membership in the local gay club, and I've found that GLBT people aren't that different from regular folks. They think about family, friends, careers, politics, the economy and the weather, just like everybody else.

Sorry its probably just the depression but I dont think they will. As we've seen already just because a person is generally on the left of issues on this particular one... well its just obvious that a goodly chunk of Dems agree with the RW on the point of no GLBT marriages. That includes Obama and Biden. Im not trying to stir the shit here. Its just the way it appears to not only myself but many others. If someone can point to things that give lie to this appearance Id be most graciously thankful.

There is a difference between an amendment to the Constitution and a revision, which is a change in a fundamental part of the Constitution.

A measure, for example, to insert language on animal cruelty is an addition, an amendment, because there is nothing foundational in the constitution about animal cruelty.

However, the court has already ruled that equal rights regarding marriage is a fundamental part of the constitution. If that's true, then it should not be able to be changed by a ballot measure. That should require a constitutional convention.

It would be like trying to take the right to vote away from Chinese people or take the vote away from women. You can't do that by ballot measure.

So, I'm holding out hope.

Yes, the court refused to block the question in the first place, but that created no precedent. It's not unconstitutional to put a question on the ballot. However, if the question goes on the ballot and the result is then unconstitutional, the court could block it.

If they don't overturn Prop 8 -- well, I'm learning the lyrics to "Oh, Canada" and brushing up on my French.

That put the current situation into language I understand.

Little more hope now than a few hours ago for me. I love Canada but Id so not move to Quebec, Ontario for me! ;) I kid, Ill stay and fight no matter the odds and besides its our country more than its been in a very long time now.

Thanks again for taking the time to write:)

But the court has already handed down important decisions in favor of gay rights. For example, in 2003, in Lawrence v. Texas, by a margin of 6-3 they struck down a Texas anti-gay sodomy law. Since then, O'Connor (who supported the majority) has retired and was replaced by a more conservative justice (Alito), which suggests that the current court is probably 5-4 in favor of some form of gay rights, a very narrow margin.

Every opportunity we get, we need to be doing what we can to move the court in the right direction (or, at least, not letting it move in the wrong direction).

You're right, Skinner. Obama's election is a very important step forward. I am feeling hopeful about the future.

Literally!

Thank you very much for the considerate reply. Ive calmed down a bit and realize your bottom line is what its all about.

Cheers!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2005-08-05-robertsgayrights_x.htm

This may offer you a glimmer of hope.

Thank you quite kindly! Depression is truly a dark and dense cloud sometimes.
Thanks again! :D

and here, here, too.

Kick and recommend.

The support from straight people keeps my hope alive.

My partner of 15 years and I hoped to make our marriage legal. We are going to CA the end of the month. We'll be waiting longer to be legal. We wanted to be married in CA because we own property there, and that is where we will eventually retire.

They can't change what is sacred in our hearts, so they they demean our humanity.

I think having a Democratic president will help. At least the hatred that has been directed at our community the past eight years will diminish somewhat.

I had tears of joy when Barack Obama was declared the winner. When I heard what had happened with Prop 8, I cried with sadness. I pretty much expected the rest, but not CA.

Thanks again for the support.

until there is an order precluding it (until the vote has been certified). This is what I've heard and read. The complete vote count will probably not be completed for at least another month. If you marry before the marriages are ordered stopped (and we may get a stay, and that order may never come), then our attorney general has stated that he believes that the marriages will be legal. Don't take my word for any of this, however, please review the information on the sites I've listed below.

It is a mark of shame on our entire country that any state would seek to dehumanise people like this :(

I hope that in the next election I will be in a position to at least donate against these neanderthal propositions.

K&R

Millions of votes yet to be counted in CA. Plenty to reverse the horrid vote on Prop 8.

I appreciate it very much.

The battle for civil rights is never easy. People didn't give up when Martin Luther King, Jr. was murdered, and we're not going to give up now either. Onward!

Prop 8 passed by a 52-48 margin. That's a drop of almost 10 percent in eight years. Change is coming. It is moving. These things will be decided by courts, where they should be -- not by the ballot. It is coming. It is moving.

I never thought the measures would pass in CA and my home state of FL. Now that they have - I'm feeling really sad and a little bit persecuted. I think it's ridiculous to allow the majority to decide the basic civil rights of a minority.

nor should it be. Roe v. Wade did not resolve the abortion issue for good. Almost the opposite. Then again, neither did the Prohibition amendment, which was decided by popular vote rather than SCOTUS fiat, resolve the temperance issue for good. In real life, there are no final solutions.

Insofar as there is a resolution, I would prefer the issue be resolved by 60% vote against a proposition 8, rather than what seems to be a hope here on DU, that a 5-4 vote of SCOTUS trumps the will of 52% of the voters. Considering the way the vote broke out demographically, that seems to be the wave of the future.

I have been really disappointed with the outcome of these latest ballot measures, but I still out a lot of hope for the future.

If only there were more people like you.

We have come to far to risk losing it all. Your day will come!
:hi:

Well said, and add me to the list of those that believe we just took a giant step forward in resolving this issue via the Supreme Court, once and for ALL!

:D :hi:

No one really knows what its like for us gay Californians and its hard. Everyone can sympathize but no one but us really know what its like to wake up one day and realize that the country you live in, the state you pay taxes to just voted to take away a fundamental right from you by popular vote. In CA in essence we were just told to go to the back yard and drink out of the water fountain rather than drink from the punch bowl with everyone else in the living room of our collective decency and dreams.

Maybe we should get a petition or some kind of initiative started that says since homosexuals aren't treated equally in the United States, we shouldn't have to pay taxes or have some sort of tax exempt status. I know it sounds crazy, but maybe someone smarter than me and not as tired right now could come up with something.

I think if you're not represented, why should you have to pay.

It happened to us in Oregon.

I'm glad Obama was elected,but he sure looks like a bible thumping bigot to me sometimes.

I was absolutely appalled to be listening to a black preacher on NPR's Morning Edition 'explaining' why he couldn't see the parallel between discrimination against blacks and discrimination against GLBT (and banning marriage IS discrimination). I would have thought that the simple idea that it's unfair to discriminate among people because they were made one way rather than another -- from birth, without having any choice in the matter -- would be a given to anyone who's fought for or debated over civil rights.

The very idea that people would vote to stop from marrying gays is anathema to our way of thinking and being. What happened to "live and let live?"

If the forces that attack gay marriage really wanted to "protect" marriage, they'd try to outlaw or make more difficult divorce. They'd try to make it harder to get married. It's not marriage they care about. It's their biases they treasure.

Thirty years from now, laws against gays marrying will be viewed as ridiculous and disgusting as anti-miscegenation laws from the 1960s and before are looked at now. Unfortunately, many gay couples will have to suffer the indignity of being treated unworthy of marriage, which is available freely to any straight person.

It's the number one civil rights issue in America today.

But today I really do wonder about those SCOTUS appointments. I look at the nubmer of Democrats who voted for 8 and 2 and I have to hope Obama does not send up religionists to the high court, just as with all the Republicans. It is now no longer enough to say 'Democratic' in terms of GLBT issues. Democratic does not equal support for civil rights anymore. It just does not. That was the past.

Such as the business boycott I saw on another thread.

So replacing them with more liberals won't make things better, it will just stop them getting worse. The only hope for improving the makeup of the Supreme Court is if Scalia quits, and I suspect he'll do his best to hang on for a Republican president in 4/8/12 years time unless his health forces him to quit.

nt

I'm in Northern CA, Sonoma County and I honestly thought that this thing couldn't possible pass. Even the Repubs I know voted against it

I was elated tuesday night and then woke on wednesday to learn that Prop 8 was passing

I felt heartbroken, angry and ashamed of my state

and as an aside, I'm a straight married woman too but I hate it that people feel a need to say that, shouldn't we support what's right no matter our orientation? Are people expressing some concern that others will think they are gay? head scratcher...

:kick:

I am a gay man who has not participated much in GLBT-related discussions on DU, and who has no doubt alienated a large contingent with what few remarks I have made, as I have generally found the tone of my compatriots to be too strident in the face of well-meaning DUers who ARE NOT against us. And it's not because I'm a big party loyalist. I just know how things work in real life, where everyone's not on the exact same page, and I don't see that it's any different here.

That said, and I live in Pennsylvania, not California, I feel as though my home were invaded by a rapacious horde. They've always had their way - we've been forced from their God forsaken backwaters, and found refuge on our own - but that was not enough. Now they want to invade our refuge. That is a declaration of war, to which I say, ok motherfucker, you want to come to California?... we're coming to Utah. And there will be NO mercy. You will regret the day you were born, motherfucker.

On a more positive note, as difficult as it's been, I see some good coming from the discussions that have come up. I especially appreciate some of the comments from African American DUers, which have been insightful, supportive, and not sweeping things under the rug. It makes me feel like there's a floor - a base to work with, and I'm not just flailing in the dark. I'm white, but more than that, urban. To me (and probably millions of others), urban = pluralism, as opposed to where we came from.

as did many other gay activists...we know damn well we helped secure them for African Americans but when it was their time to return the favor they fucked us in the ass and didn't even say thanks.
Talk about being bitter...

n/t

Maybe not now but it's inevitable. Things have just changed too much on this front. The fundies won a battle in a losing war.

agreed

from government, this issue will continue to be difficult to solve.

I'm willing to work in any way I can to see that my GLBT friends are treated as true citizens of their own nation.

However, we also have to combat the fear so evident in anti-GLBT stances. And fear is very, very difficult to overcome - it gave us Shrub for 8 years, after all.

My sincerest apologies as a straight, married woman to all my GLBT friends and family - you know I'll work for you, and I'll keep up my hope as long as you will.

I saw the picture of you and Elad and your beautiful children, and I can only hope that they inherit a more loving and understanding world than ours is now. I think that electing Obama is a good first step.

:eyes:

It means a lot to know our allies are thinking kind thoughts for us right now. :hug:

I just hope the timing is right if any of this ever does go to the SCOTUS, because once it goes there, that is the end of the line. If they time it just right, the more conservative justices, hopefully, will have stepped down to be replaced by fair minded justices appointed by President Obama. If it does go to the SCOTUS then, maybe we can finally get a fair ruling.

Otherwise, we'll have to keep fighting it a local levels and that is just not working out so far. It is so weird to me that I could go to Massachusetts and get married , then come home to NC and the marriage would not be counted. It is just so scattered and ineffective this way.

I AM glad we have a Democratic President-Elect now. That is more hope than we would ever have had with Palin anywhere near a heart beart from the presidency. That is somewhat of a bright side; we have some hope now, whereas before we had none.

I think that we need to focus on some items for our new agenda of activism as well.

We've got the organization in place, now let's use it.

apart.

peace-
bd12

We made a huge leap on Tuesday, but there are still many steps to take.

you have an apology from me, a life-long California resident and native who didn't see this coming - and who should have worked harder to defend equal rights.

This is a huge dissappointment to anyone who believes in equal protection under the law, the principle of separation of church and state, and equal civil rights for all.

The opposition "powers that be" will always focus their resources on our chain's perceived weakest link in an attempt to divide the American People from each other by focusing and then magnifying their differences.

Sometimes it works and sometimes the American People evolve in spite of this "divide and conquer" strategy being waged against them.

I view the 08 election as two steps forward and one step back for the reasons you cited and because I believe the Internet will continue to grow in power and influence with the result of exposing these cynical strategies conceived in the darkness of fear and ignorance to the sunlight of reason, compassion and enlightenment with the result of withering their grip on the people's psyche.

P.S. I watched Ellen Degeneris the other morning and she related an incident of how she felt it to be personal attack against her when she saw a bumper sticker "Vote yes on 08". It may have felt personal to her, but I'm convinced the real motivation feeding this hatred is the lust for power and nothing more.

Thanks for the thread, Skinner.

ALWAYS AND FOREVER

I'm sick over Prop 8 and hope this damn thing can be overruled. Also sick of how this is used as a wedge issue in so many other states. I'm not part of the GLBT community but I will certainly be paying attention to the issue and do what I can to help.

GLBT DU'ers you have my support!

And, by extension, posters are supposed to publicly (on DU) support those rights? Or, at the very least, not speak against them -- including saying we have to wait, baby steps, etc.? It is very frustrating for us to be told to get in teh back of teh bus and get over it by our fellow Dems.


Thnak you for your post.

It's good to know that we have allies.

word.

and you look next to you and your best friend isn't there.
I am sorry too.

It's sad and disappointing that so many can see fit to vote for Obama but still don't understand how important it is to extend basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution to our GLBT brothers and sisters. I don't get it. I agree that at least Obama and the Congress will be in a position to either make some advancements or at the very least, stop the erosion.

We still have a ways to go.

Please read up about the legal fight at the websites listed below. We need to effectively fight the implementation. Let's get organized and get going!

In Solidarity,

This victory can only be bittersweet until I see my GLBT brothers and sisters enjoy the same rights we straight people take for granted.

Roll up your sleeves folks: we still have a lot of work to do!

I'm straight but am a Californian and I feel as if
I've been violated by an out of state church .

I know many feel the same . I will refrain from broadbrush
statements . But I can tell you the LDS church is on my
shit list.

Not the people per se but the power structure of the church.

did this. With their bodies and money they did this. No fucking quarter. This is not just some organizational wrong, this is individual people who took bigoted actions unseen in this coutry since the 1960s. The structure is vile, but I say so are the people who take up the clubs and come after my family.

they were told lies and blindly followed those
lies full of hate .

I will stand in front of your family with my
family if they ever come at you with clubs .

I worked hard at confronting them here in coco
county . I'm proud that I got in their faces .
8 was defeated in this county .

I am with you .

:dem:

FL getting 61% to push a nasty "marriage is a man and woman" - which is so sad to see that 6 out of 10 people there that vote would feel such judgment, and sadly, here in CA, I was struck that so many SF's supposedly didn't vote! And, 3/4 AA's voted for prop 8, whereas all other races were around 50/50 or better in voting it down! :(

I hope Pres-elect Obama will speak up for "civil rights not being something we should vote on" - I'd LOVE to hear that...... soon.

And until we can change the minds and hearts of people like her -

wedded to her Judeo-Christian tradition to uphold man/woman marriages -

we will still be in the dark ages.

Clinging to a document called the Bible for answers to questions that need a new approach.

When oh when are we going to stop running peoples lives with rules from an old book

in an old time when "gay" didn't exist. And if you use those rules against gay people then

let's use ALL the rules against ALL the people.

And see how long that holds up. O8)

I have to say that what should have been a very euphoric time for me was bittersweet. I am a gay white male and was an Obama supporter from the time Edwards dropped out, despite the fact that it seemed like all of my gay friends were supporting Hillary. I voted in the Texas primary for Obama and served as an Obama delegate at the county-level caucus. I have an Obama yard sign out front and two Obama magnets on my bumper. I should have been ecstatic Tuesday night, but instead, my euphoria was mixed with something else. I woke up Wednesday to the news that Prop 8 had probably passed and my happiness was instantly turned to anger, despair, and sadness.

My partner of 16 years and I had been planning to go to California on our anniversary this December to get married. Instead, we'll be staying home. I am torn because my grandfather was just diagnosed with cancer and I want & need to go see him soon, but at the same time my distaste for California and her residents makes me not want to visit... Not want to spend my dollars there... Not want to interact with people who may have taken my right to get married away from me.

Finding that African Americans were the largest ethnic group to vote away my rights has me at a loss for words, especially considering that I just put my support behind a heterosexual mixed-race man. Did I make the right choice? Absolutely! But that doesn't take away any of the hurt or feelings of despair.

I believe that the modern concept of marriage is a combination of two things: 1) The religious portion, and 2) the legal portion. I can already have a ceremony in the church of my choice and I DO NOT want to get married in your bigoted church, thank you very much! What I want is the second part... the part from MY GOVERNMENT, not the part from YOUR CHURCH. I pay my taxes. I am a good citizen. I don't want to have to pay taxes on 1/2 of our home if my partner ever died and left it to me in his will. I don't want his legal heirs to own half of my home if he were to die without a will. I don't want some hospital staff to tell me I can't see him in the hospital because I am not "family". Is this too much to ask?

So thank you for letting me get some of that off of my chest, and thank you Skinner or posting this discussion thread. Your words mean a lot to me.

Tim

Thanks for that! :hi:

Thank you... I was here or the last election and was so depressed about the outcome that I turned off politics for a long time. I read frequently, but don't post too often. My partner is here MUCH more frequently though.

I'm disgusted by what happened in California, and I was very disappointed when I first heard Obama say that he was against same sex marriage.

Just remember that, as others have said, his election is still a step in the right direction on this issue because by electing him we have very likely saved the Supreme Court.

I do believe that he, like many politicians, may be playing the semantic game of "marriage" versus "civil union" not because he really believes what he is saying but because doing otherwise would be political suicide and would hand the reigns of government and the SC to the hard right. I don't like it, but sometimes the biggest advances are made through pragmatism.

What are the stats on divorce in those state whose citizen felt is necessary to stop gay marriage to SAVE traditional families?
Might I venture guess that the divorce rate among heteros is still as high or higher?

have been denied on of the most basic rights of the human race - to choose whom you can love.

see if you can help those fighting for GLBT rights. Thank you. :grouphug:

I'm also a bit disappointed that Obama did not push harder for the passage of gay marriage in California and Florida.

He has said so many times. Our families are not as beautiful as his.

And the majority of the AA community agrees with him.

How can such a smart man be so ignorant? The science is not ambiguous. We do not choose the color of our skin. We do not choose our sexual orientation.

Only religion can explain such profound cognitive dissonance.

The part that really hurts is that I still love what he stands for. I want him to want to be my president.

But he doesn't want to be. I'm not part of his America. So sad not to be invited to his party.

much less sensuality, eroticism, intimacy, and emotions.

Being comfortable with these aspects of ourselves, and the various ways they manifest in others, is the next frontier.

Thank you for hosting an open, honest forum in which these and other issues of inequality may be met and discussed.

:kick:

We live to fight another day! Donate to GLBT causes, march and stand up to make your voices heard.

Thank you for this post, Skinner. It means more than you may know.

I applaud and encourage your continued leadership on behalf of LGBT people. We won't make it without allies like you. :thumbsup:

will have the good sense to understand what it will take to get there. It will require educating Americans with the facts, without the snarky rhetoric that exists as a result of unjust discrimination against homosexuality. The GLBT is in dire need of learning from the likes of Mahatma Ghandi and Nelson Mandela. It is hard to help people who are determined to screw things up for themselves.

Here is an example from life- you say that GLBT people need to learn from y'all, all about Ghandi. Well guess what? The man who taught Martin Luther King Jr about Ghandi's methods was a gay man. So we taught you, gay taught straight. Bayard Rustin was the cheif organizer of the March for Jobs in DC. He was King's non violent protest mentor. He designed the civil rights movement. He was King's Axelrod, if you will.
And by the way, straight folks don't discriminate against homosexuality, they discriminate against human beings. On an individual basis. People.
The problems are ignoracne of history, and straight bigotry. The problem lies with you. Your people need to enter the 21st century.

Snarky rhetoric, my ass.

:kick:

and that's surprising because CA seemed to be so liberal. Guess not.

SHAME ON YOU, CALIFORNIA! :mad:

I had this odd mix of euphoria and sadness on Wednesday morning - Euphoria, because of the fantastic win by Obama, and sadness because of all of the anti-LGBT sentiment that was displayed by the electorate. My partner and I were watching the results from Georgia, as we were planning on going to Calif. and tying the knot, then celebrating with his family. The marriage wouldn't mean anything in my red state, of course, but I had confidence it would one day.

Over the day Wednesday, my sadness slowly became hope. If Obama can win the presidency against all odds, it energizes my hope and fills me with resolve that a new dawn will break for LGBT folk one day. We lost some big battles Tuesday, but by no means have we lost the war. And with Obama as president, his privilege to appoint supreme court justices to fill retiree spots, the democratic majority in congress, and the gradual bluing of red America, our chances are better than they ever have been as a body politic to join in the American dream.

Obama spoke affirmatively of federal civil protections for our relationships, and I believe he will be an advocate for that at a national level. It may not be marriage, but it will be that someday.

Thank you, Skinner, for recognizing us. It means so much to me.

Very nice of you to think of us.

:)

I'm straight, but I'm an atheist and I feel like our state of CA has been violated and besmirched by the agendas of powerful outside forces with a ton of $$. This is a travesty. I will not really feel like celebrating until the legal thing is done here and everyone has their rights restored.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." This is one of the central committments, IMHO, to which progressives have to dedicate themselves. The last Democratic president promised equal rights in the military, and Americans were given "Don't Ask Don't Tell" and DOMA. I understand and accept "governing from the middle," but, and I only speak for myself, I guess I, - a white middle class straight married male - confused a Democratic president, my rising retirement account, relative peace, and too many "don't ask don't tells" for a dedication to social and economic justice. I promise to do better this time.

the nation and i resent that i cannot celebrate our victory, because quite frankly it wasnt my victory at all.

i vote democratic but i am gay, and who i am takes precedence over how i vote.

Thanks for not calling me up to tell me you are sorry about the prop 8 vote, then Bash Obama as a lying, immmature, inexperienced, selfish no gooder who is going to mess up this country (that would be my mother who did that).

2) Thanks for this site...it is a great place in the good and bad times.

and take heart. For reference, Silverton is a fairly rural small town that is mostly caucasian (latest census data shows 90%) and some lovely Normal Rockwell murals in their charming downtown. Its the type of small town that my Grandmother grew up in, and one that my urban eyes would view with a suspicion of having plenty of small-town minds.

Anyway, Silverton just elected a person who is believed to be the first trans-gendered mayor in the US, with a margin of 13 points.


http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_110608_news_transgender_mayor.18a1f2fa7.html

I have been voting since John Kennedy in 1960 and I have never heard of a GLBT American. Please explain for those of us who don't read GLBT as a word.

I don't see how the CA vote can overturn the judiciary. I do not think this issue was settled by this vote since it was basically a vote to overturn a judicial ruling.

condolences. this fight is not over and civil rights will win the day. I just wish that day had been Tuesday.

I'm staying in michigan for the good fight....
it bothers me when people(in their minds) pack their bags for canada..

i work with a couple of christian types....
have actually gotten them to understand that their morality is having a negative impact on me personally....through organized religions efforts i have been marginalized...they get it....before they didnt...had i moved to canada i wouldn't have had this small impact....these folks are vocal in their churches and have promised me that they will do their best to help....

so stay and fight....


you know....during the civil rights movement.....i don't recall anyone talking about leaving the country....

RainDog:

The California Supreme Court ruled that not allowing gay couples to marry as straight couples can was unconstitutional. Proposition 8 amends the California State Constitution. Thus, it is no longer "unconstitutional".

People can't choose what they are.

angry that the very concept of Prop 8 was allowed on the ballot.

I hope the GLBT community knows there are many of us
will support their fight in the months ahead. Keep us informed
of organizations, individuals and efforts we can contribute to.

Love, faith and the fundamental right to establish a family has
no place on the ballot. Imagine for a moment what your life would
look like if denied those very same rights. For most of us it would be
inconceivable.

but I guess this post is better late than never...DU leaders dropped the ball BIGTIME on this one.

pledge to join in the fight for equality for ALL.

The song Witch Hunt by Rush comes to mind.

It's outrageous that my brother and his partner do not have the same rights as I do -- I grew up in the same house/street/city/state/country as my brother; we went to the same schools; he even surpassed me with a terminal degree -- so why is he not my legal equal? Why is he perceived as some sort of threat? It's totally insane.

This makes me so angry that I can feel my blood pressure surge every time it crosses my mind.

I've always taken it for granted that people at DU support equal rights for all, but thanks for the reminder.

No rest until all citizens are free from discrimination!

As a result of learning 7 out of 10 black Californians voted for Prop 8, we have decided to withdraw all support for any racially based equality initative or proposal of any kind for a period of twelve months. We realize it is pointless, but cannot in good conscience fight for those who fight against us.

Now is this really the America we want to live in?

How can a people elect our first black president, overcoming centuries of racial oppression, and at the same time vote to deny human liberties to any entire group of people based on the way they were born?? WTF?

I appreciate your post of support, skinner.

so i wasn't surprised when it did. but i have been shocked by some of the posts blaming certain groups for the passage of Prop 8.

I would like for all the threads for bashing black people and any other race to stop. We have more important things that need attention

And, please point me to one thread bashing blacks? There was one icky one that was locked this morning. I alerted and posted condemning the OP. That's the only thread like that there's been.

Why would anyone care about those implications?

Agreed. How can anybody know how "blacks" voted? Are we under surveillance while we are voting? That would be news to me.

Your statement really means a lot to me.

it needs to be taken to a federal level....out of state hands. Everyone knows this just as everyone knows Gay Marriage will inevitably arrive. Ironically, these set backs bring the matter closer to that level...I think... I hope!

As a married gay man in CA, facing his 2nd annulment (the first following the marriage we made in 2004 in SF), I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

What I most crave now is not sympathy but empathy.

Just put yourself in my shoes. Your rights are taken away by a popular majority. You wake up on Nov 5 to that grim reality. No Obama victory could compensate for that. And long term, slow change is cold comfort to this jarring reality.

Thanks again

:kick:

was reactionary, and not really intended.