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How does one prove "an establishment of religion"?

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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 01:49 PM
Original message
How does one prove "an establishment of religion"?
One donates $20,000,000 to "protect" it.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

It does NOT say "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion".
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Huh?
I haven't the slightest notion of what you meant.

Can you say it differently? I'm not real bright.

Thank you.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. This is in relation to CA Prop 8
The church has redefined Marriage in the State of CA and, in so doing, potentially proven that Marriage is "an establishment of religion". Since neither Federal nor State constitution allows any law respecting that establishment, ALL marriage statutes should be summarily invalidated.

Think of establishment not as 'creation' but rather the usage in 1776, which was more of an underpinning or foundation or tenet.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's a good place to start...
Edited on Sun Nov-09-08 03:33 PM by Davis_X_Machina
Link to the First Amendment Center.

The Lemon test is the place from which most establishment cases depart.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Lemon test is so pliable as to be laughable
I shudder to think what this current Court would do if it chose to decide any case or controversy involving the definition of marriage. That would be a final nail in the coffin.

As for the meaning of "establishment" in the matter of any religious institution contributing to a political cause, I agree that it's violative of the establishment clause. But, beyond San Francisco and the CASC there, I don't have a whole lot of faith that my view would be supported judically.

With all the things wrong in our country, in our world today, this is, indeed, distressing, but I'm still not convinced that fighting for marriage rights when The Defense Of Marriage Act is still in force just might be a misguided effort. I'd be working to overturn that Act before going after individual states. Just my opinion.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Then I think we have a case
While religion and government must interact at some points while co-existing in society, the concern here is that they do not so overlap and intertwine that people have difficulty differentiating between the two


Since even the people proposing Prop 8 can't tell the difference between a Church and a State marriage, I would submit that the Lemon test resolves in favor of the opposition to the ballot measure.
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