Recommend this thread if you think the TSA "No-Fly" List should be destroyed

In solidarity with my fellow DUers!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8250229&mesg_id=8250229

We can't destroy it and we can't get off it, vitiate it by putting every name in the country on it.

One single Executive Order from the man after January 20, and the TSA list is history. And that's a good thing.

even though the TSA is one of the most useless Dog and Pony shows ever trotted out by our government.

Anyone relevant that I or the average American still give a damn about? Or is it some Moonie-funded partisan hack in his mom's basement?

are the people that probably have never left the country and have no plans to do so and makes it a mute point.

Yes, I agree that the "no fly" list is so big and contains so many errors that it's really useless for crime prevention. It's also worse than useless because innocent people are treated as criminals when their names appear on it.

If they make that stick to Obama, he could become a one term President.

The billions of people who are being punished and the airline costs for failure by one administration to protect 3000 people is crazy

:loveya:

It's hard not to mock something so blatantly a farce.

No-Fly has been an idiotic disaster, snaring six-year-olds, grannies, and senators. It hasn't stopped one single terrorist. Not one. Zero. Personne. The only thing stupider than the no-fly list are the bozos who take our shampoo and shaving cream away because they could be mixed into a dangerous compound.

Then what do they do with them? Empty them together in a common disposal -- DOH!!!

But set up an independent panel and give the TSA 15 days to justify each and every name on the list. If they can't justify it, it comes off.

If someone is too dangerous to be allowed aboard a commercial aircraft, why are they traveling at all? If there is enough criminal history to justify keeping someone off a plane, then they pretty much shouldn't be out of jail let alone traveling.

They would by extension also be a hazard on any other form of transport. We don't have a no-train list or a no-bus list.

How do you know that is hasn't stopped a single terrorist? The "bozos" that take your shampoo and shaving cream are there to protect everyone going on the planes. These people have terrible jobs because they not only have to listen to people like you complain but they don't get paid much at all. I know the TSA rules seem ridiculous (and some of them are) but they are in place to protect people flying. Do you have any alternatives? BTW, what six year olds, grannies, or senators have they apprehended because they were on the no-fly list? can you name any names?

Most people who were on the list either shared a name with a troublemaker, or fell into the category of troublemaker by virtue of being a peace activist or a Democrat, or got on the list solely for being of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent, or having skin that isn't white.

They need to be removed from the list. For that matter, everyone who isn't a known terrorist or known to commit crimes on airplanes needs to be taken off the list, and only those that are known threats should remain on the list.

In other words, instead of having hundreds of thousands or even millions on the list, the list should have at most a few hundred people that are known dangers.

Prior restraint is a bad idea.

LOL

Certainly it is appropriate, within the law and the restrictions imposed on government officials by the Constitution, for law enforcement investigators to identify and pursue criminal suspects.

But under no circumstances should people be suspects who have committed no crimes and are not under lawful investigation.

"We know who they are, so let's go get them" was a sentiment that 20 years ago we only heard from the most extreme reactionary and bigoted people. Sadly, this thinking has become pervasive even among liberals and Democrats.

People are to be resumed innocent until found guilty within the context of the law and the Constitution. No one should be presumed guilty by any extra-legal criteria; by their associations, by their ethnicity, by some set of activities which are legal, by their status or other prior restraint criteria. No "lists" should be kept, no people should be targeted for special treatment.

Should that be left alone too?

I agree the use of the list has been abused, but to say NO ONE should be on a risk list is ridiculous. How about fugitives of any kind? Do we allow a known bomber on the run from England access to our airways for example?

Like everything else in the world this is strictly not a black/white issue. It's a slippery slope for sure and the current method is being abused which is ultimately the problem and must be fixed.

Those are people wanted for crimes.

Yes, the Bill of Rights is "strictly a black/white issue" in my opinion. Just because many things do appropriately lend themselves to compromise, that does not mean that everything does or should. We must hold fast to something, stand for something, hold some principles and ideals as pure and unalloyed and "unalienable."

There is no such thing as a legitimate compromise between security and freedom. Attempting to compromise between the two always leads to losing both. That is a fundamental "self evident truth" upon which all of our freedom and security rest.

that's what I mean by exceptions to lists.

Of course anyone who have not been convicted etc.. should not be treated as guilty unless proven to be. I completely agree.

Anyone who is such a risk before trial would be held without bail.

Thanks.

I fly every week for work. TSA screening and a logical "no fly list" are fine with me.

Like this guy?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug19.html

Or this guy?
http://www.ajc.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/07/18/lewis_terrorist_list.html

Or this guy?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/17/watchlist.chertoff/index.html

Or this airline pilot?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901649_pf.html

Or this kid?
http://www.cbs8.com/story.php?id=66072

Or this AF sergeant?
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/apr/14/opinion/ed-list14

Or this guy?
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,702062,00.html

The argument is always that we have to inconvenience a few innocent people to catch the bad guys. That's bullshit. This guy has some good info for further reading:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/nofly_list_to_b.html

something like being descended from the Mayflower families.

A class-action suit for everyone on the list with a nice compensatory payout. Simply being on the list means your rights were violated by being falsely accused of a crime with no evidence.

And the government needs to pay restitution to every citizen who was illegally surveilled.

That'll cut down on all those DHS "fact-finding" trips to Hawaii and such. :evilgrin:

Our government is bankrupt. Even the Chinese no longer want to loan us money.

I'd rather see any money we can get put towards universal healthcare or helping our jobless find work right now.

Those superfluous jokers have been whooping it up at taxpayers' expense.

I wonder every time I fly if my name will appear on that list. So far, so good, but people with common names often have their names listed and have to prove they are not that John Smith.

Such a list may be necessary, but it sure as heck needs to be a lot better administered.

will take that up right away.

:eyes:

Russ Feingold would be a great choice!

Given current screening procedures, any traveler, even one whose name is Osama Bin Laden, can walk into any airport in the country, go through all the checkpoints using their own I.D., and pretty easily board a flight. Requires tools no more complicated than a pair of kindergarten scissors, a glue stick and any old copy machine.

The whole damned thing is theater, theater, theater. That we haven't had another incident is attributable more to good police work, alert passengers (remember the "shoe bomber"?) and maybe the x-ray machines. No fly lists aren't going to catch anyone so long as there's a gaping loophole in procedure, but closing the loophole would make life miserable for business travelers.

As it is, it catches no one, and only makes life miserable for hundreds of ordinary citizens.

:mad:

There are x-ray machines in many public places now. It's copycat criminals that are the biggest threat at the moment.

I heard that Bush announced that there is going to be some kind of change in the use or protection of the airspace or something around Christmas. I hope that is not a mistake. It would seem to me that the Christmas season is one for careful attention to criminal activities everywhere -- especially this year. I hope Bush is not trying to allow some sort of crisis for Obama to clean up in addition to the economy.

I've done loads of flying since this all went into effect. I see no obvious reason to believe that TSA, DHS, or no-fly lists have any positive impact on saefty.

Your list of reasons is solid, and i'll one more: luck.
The Professor

The metal detectors, X-rays, and even the random checks for explosive residues are all probably cost effective and minimally intrusive or inconvenient. Requiring everyone to remove shoes and jackets and the ridiculous set of conditions on liquids in carry on (can't be in a container that holds more than 3 oz, must be in a quart size bag) is a dog & pony show.

The No Fly list should be called the No Brains list. Starting in January every passenger will be required to provide full names (first, middle and last,) date of birth, and gender when buying the tickets just because the No Fly list is such a Rube Goldberg worthy system that it is based solely on stopping anyone with the same first and last name.

Thank you TSA for making airline databases better targets for ID theft.

NUKE 'EM!

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Yaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!

(from way, way back when Imus was funny!)

edit: nukes

if they really suspect someone is up to something, then the FBI should already have an eye on them. makes no sense to hassle someone every single time they fly, just because once they got in a quarrel with the gate agent, who in turn placed them on the list as revenge.

and stop making us remove our damn shoes! the last time i flew, they made an old white haired lady USING A WALKER remover her shoes. she was in tears by the time she was done, because she just didn't have the mobility to do so easily. i couldn't even offer to go help, because i was on the wrong side of the checkpoint. shameful.

That's not only useless but it's also a shame.The land of the free?

Only thing worse is backscatter x-ray machines.

Is that there are people harassed by this list, yet one time (in the not so distant past) I checked my bags, got my boarding pass, and made it past the first screener without ever showing my driver's license. I thought that was a huge no-no!

I also read a news story recently about these two guys (I believe the reporters themselves) who made it onto a plane despite the fact that they were on a no-fly list. Basically, they had a fake boarding pass to go with a fake ID. If someone with bad motives really wanted to get on a plane, I don't think the list would stop them.

I booked a little trip to the Florida Keys
A week of sun and a light sea breeze
Grabbed the wife and the luggage, we were on our way
But we didn’t reckon with the T S A!

Made the check-in counter in plenty of time,
Proceeded to the security line,
Took off my belt, took off my shoes,
And then I learned to sing the T S A blues.

They said I’m on a no-fly list
I must be a famous terrorist
Osama must be my best pal,
And I was a Qaeda, ‘cause my name was Al.

They made me spit into a cup,
And that cleared the confusion up,
They couldn’t match my D N A,
So, “good bye sir, and have a nice day!”

We left to go and catch our plane,
Whispered these guys are insane
A uniform stopped us, hands on hips
Said, “We heard that! We read your lips!”

They called me bad, they called me wicked,
Demanded to know if I had liquid.
I said, “just five quarts of blood.”
“That’s over the limit, you’re busted, Bud!”

Now my poor wife began to cry,
She wondered if we’d ever fly.
A grim-faced man came up and said,
“We have to check. Remove your head.”

I yelled that my head was not removable.
They said they’d let it go if that was provable.
My wife said, “This has gone too far,
“Forget the flight, let’s get the car.”

We got our stuff, and drove back home,
Said, “this looks good, no need to roam!”
Home, sweet home, and you know, what’s more,
No one felt us up on the way to the door.

They say their motives have the utmost purity,
And the whole routine is for our security,
But as long as I am free to choose,
Well, someone tell United the news,
That’s the last time I’ll sing the T S A blues!

As sung by such dangerous terrrrrists as Teddy Kennedy and some poor 8 year old boy and many others!

Everytime I stand there holding my pants up with one hand and carrying my shoes in the other hand, I think about the missing cash from my suitcase ....and I just burn........




:mad:

Take this list and stick it up Bush's ass (and LIEberman's too!!!!)

But can't the TSA ban them with a POLICY instead of a LIST?

;)

It will just become a secret list even if all the courts and laws tell them to get rid of it. Homeland security and their private partners are running amok!

Some of the names on it are so common (anglo and ethnic) it just impedes security, not enhances it. And the best?? Even tho 60 mins did a huge expose about it, the FAA tells us we're not supposed to talk about it to passengers.

Our govt really thinks we're idiots!

I think this is one of those things that'll be expunged without a lot of fanfare. And BTW, you'll all be allowed to carry your water bottle and wine thru the security check-point as of early 2009 (wow! That timing is SUUUUCH a coincidence!) Whatever happened to all those "terrists" who were trying to make liquid explosives 2 years ago? Well, after the media blitz that heralded their arrest, 20 of 24 were released due to lack of evidence less than a month later.

But travelers still had to leave their personal, dangerous water at home, and buy it from the airport concessions at 8 bucks a bottle!!

I'd like to see the entire agency dismantled so that its employees have to go find real work instead of pilfering from air travellers and making mothers drink their own breast milk at gunpoint.

They are all wannabe cops. Maybe Dumbya will issue them flights suits before he leaves.

n/t

bought one-way tickets in their own names with their credit card --

AIRLINES NEVER ALERTED TO THIS --

Who are we kidding -- ?

Sen. Ted Kennedy was on this list and detained for hours -- !!

This is political harassment -- that's all --

Wasn't either Naomi Wolf or Naomi Klein as=lso on this list --???

The list as it is implemented now violates peoples basic rights. There is no recourse for someone who is listed, to challenge the listing and have it expunged.

I'm not on the no-fly list as far as I know, but the last few times I've flown, the TSA has pawed through my luggage, leaving a mess and not putting my shampoo back in the plastic bag. I get to my destination with a huge glop of shampoo on my clothing. Not as bad as being on the no-fly list, but annoying as hell.

A lot of liberals and progressives rightly objected to the No Fly list as a violation of due process, but then proposed that anyone on such a list should be prevented from purchasing firearms.

Due process is so-o-o-o-o fashionable.

Along with a list of supporters of the list and their respective party affiliation.

Then the persons who put persons on that list should be listed in newspapers.

fear generating practice and should have never been adopted in the first place

really, it is so, I don't know, so WWII. The name bugs me greatly. As to the TSA no fly list it should have been aborted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

Check out the False positives and other controversial cases section, e.g.

"In February 2006, U.S. Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) stated in a committee hearing that his wife Catherine had been subjected to questioning at an airport as to whether she was Cat Stevens due to the similarity of their names.<28><31>"

"In October 2008, it was revealed that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information on the terrorist watch list.<38> Also, protest groups were entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed on the list because of their opposition to the death penalty and the Iraq war."

Lots of stupidity and political suppression going on.
I think the list should be greatly shrunk and should be administered properly.

What the TSA has to say about it...
http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/tsa_watch_list.shtm

Remember, people, they had TEDDY on the list at one point.

Change it to ... George Bush. I'm sure I wouldn't want to be on a plane with a terrorist name like that.

I've argued since 9/11 against security in flying.

Up to that point, as a passanger, if you did anything to try to stop the hijackers you might be hurt or killed. That was the threat that kept passengers passive.
What 9/11 did was to change that. Now, if you DON'T try to stop the hijackers you will be killed. Passengers will no longer be passive and any group of passengers can overpower any hijacker. If the choice is between fighting, and maybe being hurt of killed, and NOT fighting and ABSOLUTELY being killed, I'll take my chances fighting.
The only true weapon hijackers had, threat of harm, is now lost to them.

Drop all security, its only purpose is to remind us we are subject to a totalitarian government - take of my shoes, indeed!

Who do you work for, Poppy Bush? Richard Nixon? "Destroy it"?

more concerned about those who "Recommend" this.

Since your link is to a Lounge thread....oy.

Oh, and my son is an air marshall...any questions?

A new one should be formed with Bush Sr, Bush Jr., Cheney and the rest of his criminal administration.