I am not a vegetarian

but the turkeys being slaughtered on the Sarah Palin show probably were a good reminder to us that our steaks, and fish, and chicken in nice little trays covered with a plastic wrap - did have life and a different appearance.

It was during our trip to Alaska two years ago, that I lost my appetite for a salmon after we were taken to a native village where we saw how the salmon is being cut and hang out to dry and to smoke.

After leaving the movie theater after watching "Fast Food Nation" I really did not eat any beef for days.

Even the turkey on Thanksgiving dinner does not look exactly like the real bird. I think that only some of the roasted pig BBQ keep the familiar features.

Several years ago we had a vegetarian Thanksgiving. I will have to look for this recipe. We may have it again this year.

Sigh.

I eat I would become one in a nano-second. That Palin interview was just sickening.

turkey slaughter. What I found sickening was Palin's talk of having FUN at the facility.

Killing meat animals so that people may eat is no laughing matter, and her attitude showed a lack of respect for those animals being slaughtered. Native Americans always remembered to THANK their game for giving their lives up so that humans could eat.

The bird's reflexively kicking just as she commented about "the chopping block" was just bizarre and unfortunate (for the bird, not Palin).

There's no such thing. You can't respect someone and then kill them for your wants. :eyes:

The idea that humans and non-human animals are separate and morally distinct is vestigial religious nonsense with no application to modern society.

I find the idea of humans and animals being on equal footing to be nonsense. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

96% of your DNA is the same as that of a chimpanzee. To put that in perspective, that's 40x more similar than mice are to rats.

Humans are animals. It's basic biology.

And technically you are correct, we are animals. But by whatever process granted it, I have been given free will and the physiology to go with it. Besides if we really are just animals, then it's just natural for us to consume whatever we have an appetite for. Wild animals do it all the time.

Choosing to cause harm to other beings when we know better would be irresponsible and selfish, and thus a betrayal of that very gift of free will.

We do have free will and we use it to justify what we do whether it be to eat meat or to not eat meat. Either way you're going to cause harm to something. Just because you can't hear a plant scream doesn't mean it's not in pain when you rip it out of the ground.

A plant doesn't feel because it has no nervous system to move or process pain stimuli. An animal does.

Since there's no reason for a person capable of making more humane choices to eat an animal, that decision is selfish and intentionally harmful, and thus not ethically justifiable.

It has been shown that while plants do not have a nervous system as we do, they do react to physical harm.

That's a hell of a long way from sensation, let alone cognitive awareness of sensation. Plants simply don't have the structures for either.

Whose to say plants are not aware. They react to external stimuli, that seems pretty aware to me.

What do I have left to eat that won't cause me guilt?

Maybe styrofoam? :D

I think I will consume only the nutrients contained in a "banana bag" until the invention you speak of occurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_bag

There is no structure on a plant which is capable of sending, receiving or processing a sensory signal by any method known to science.

:reads reply title:

What the hell kind of crackheaded...

:sees who posted:

Oh. :blush:

Are they aware?

is simply a tool to aid us in surviving long enough to reproduce. We are just like every other animal, except we maybe have an inflated sense of self importance.
We respond to stimuli and react accordingly to ensure our own continued existence.. our behaviors are all the same. It is simply the mechanisms that are different.

Only a 1.4 percent difference between us.

We should be eating pretty much what they eat. I believe it's about 80 percent plant and fruits, 15 percent insects, and 5 percent other mammals and "meat".

Biology is easier for some to overcome than others. I applaud your for having strength enough of conviction to be what you are. But it's unrealistic to expect the majority of humans to agree with you. You can, and probably should, keep trying, but it's an uphill battle. I also understand your moral arguments, Leftymom, but a lot of moral beliefs are based on biology and evolution, and for many, eating meat is no issue at all. In some cases, religion and the like try perverting our biological imperatives in much the same way...and they ultimately lose. Their is a reason christian kids, for example, get pregnant before they get married, and all those preachers and conservatives end up in the arms of hookers and mistresses (and man-stresses)....trumping biology, whether the issue is sex or food, is pretty fuggin difficult.

There are some humans that are lower than vermin. And there are some animals that bring such joy that they transcend the human race.

Think of rescue dogs, therapy animals...our beloved pets.

Then in turn, think of Hitler, Mussolini, Ted Bundy, et al... or even your run of the mill human asshole.

But, extreme examples aren't really needed to make the point.

I guess I do agree with the point of humans and animals not being on equal footing.

It's really hard for a human to measure up to the innocence, perfection, and beauty of an animal.

All life should be respected, but it's waaaay easier to love non-humans.

But what about the bear that kills men, women, and children in the northwest and Canada. Or the sharks that kill people down here in Florida and other places. Are they as innocent and perfect and beautiful? I'm sure you would say yes. That they are just doing what they have to do to survive. But how is that any different than a human eating meat?

And yes it is easier to love pets but that's only because humans can be so difficult sometimes with that pesky free will and all.

The little bugger has more free will than any being I have ever seen. He's a brat, but I love him. :-)

And while I will extend a little less vitriol toward the bear or shark who kills vs. the human who kills, simply because I know humans are capable of higher reasoning and logic, and therefore know right from wrong more than the bear or shark, I will grant that an animal who has endangered, threatened, or taken human lives can fairly be treated as a threat, and yes, sadly killed if that is what is necessary to thwart an attack in progress.

And, like with killing a human, I can understand is it is necessary in self defense.

But still, I'll be honest, I'd feel worse about it if it were an animal, in my case. I'd have no qualms about killing a human attacker, but if a dog attacked me and I had to harm or kill it in self defense I'd feel horrendous, because I know it is not capable of well thought out malicious intent.

That's just me. :shrug:

biology is not the law, animals deserve some protections they do not have or deserve legal rights.

Civil and criminal law IS a human construct and it is the generally accepted method for dealing with matters of "rights".

Lack of legal recognition doesn't mean a right does not exist.

Rights are a human construct as the above poster stated. Humans give them and humans can take them away.

Unless one chooses to believe that, on the wrong side of some misbegotten border, a female human suddenly takes on all of the moral weight of say, a shoe, and can be traded as easily, then we have to recognize that rights are separate from legal recognition.

In some tribes on this planet murder is perfectly acceptable. So is cannibalism. You can look anywhere on this planet and find differing views on what is right and moral for no reason than that society was raised that way. We decided what is right as a people.

You can justify any crazy-assed thing you want, once you stroll down that path.

Moral relativism is a philosophical dead end.

Which is why I stated above that it's better to agree to disagree.

And I will thoughtlessly choke the shit of any grape, alive or dead, in order to get it.

And part of what makes that so is the fact that it is a human ability that even creates the construct. An ability not found with any other animals. Another difference.

They still have rights, just as the rest of us still have responsibilities toward them.

Rights are not a function of cognition. Rights are inherent.

If they were, we wouldn't need laws. We'd all just know for the most part, what is right and wrong.

That was what the enlightenment was all about.

Which is why they can be taken away easier than they can be "granted".

Grow up.

wholly created and "granted" by humans. No other animal behaves in a similar manner. Responsibilities toward other humans or even other organisms is not the granting of legal rights.

Now if you'll excuse me I have something to do today away from the computer for a few hours. (any non-response from me shouldn't be misconstrued as concession):hi:

This thread's going to hit 500 posts now.

:eyes:

I did. In a big way.

could be that you are such an insufferable ass that you are being ignored

or maybe your reply was so irrelevant they had no more to add

or it could be that the poster simply went to bed

or could be all of the above or even something else

so don't presume you were so brilliant that you "won"

We eat meat. If you don't want to, fine. Just don't shove vegetarian ideas down our throats, please, because most humans have an instinctive desire to eat meat.

Necessary? No. Chosen? Yes. Fuck the world. I want, and that's what matters.

I'm gonna love the responses to this one.

driving hummers.

Meat has been a part of the diet of most humans since we jumped from trees. The very reason we are here is probably our ability to use an opposable thumb to break open bones in discarded animal carcuses and eat the protien rich marrow.

If I was starving and there was no food to be had and I couldn't shoot anything to eat... as much as I love my Cat and as much as I loved my dog. I'd eat them in a heartbeat.

bears, and a whole slew of other animals. Some animals are even carnivores. I don't judge dogs for eating meat, or cats, or sharks. If every animal on earth stopped eating meat, the entire food chain would collapse.

Having said that, I think many of the ways humans raise and slaughter animals are revolting, and I completely support and respect that some humans choose not to eat meat. However I choose to remain an omnivore, and try to make food choices that are mindful of that, i.e. humanely raised animals and organically grown produce.

He's one of as, as he sees it.




And to me...he's above and beyond the flaws, faults, and weaknesses of the human condition.

:-)

Haven't you ever loved a pet? Weren't they someone to you?

I'll unabashedly admit my dog is not only someone to me, he's pretty much the world.

I love my dear adopted cat Angela that I have now with all of my heart and she is a part of my family. But she is a cat and if she were to die tomorrow or even way off in the future, I would grieve very deeply but not as deeply as I would for a human family member.

I believe the depth at which we grieve is determined by how much the being who died contributed to our lives, or meant to us. Would I grieve the loss of my Mom more than my dog? Yes - or at least in a very different and more poignant way.

Would I grieve the loss of a distant cousin, or a coworker, or a relative who was abusive or hateful more than my dog?

No, hell no.

I think the"value" of a life form is not really determined by species, but by what that life form meant to us.

That said, I do believe that any living thing capable of feeling pain and fear should not be abused in any way, or treated in a cruel manner, whether human or animal. There, I can't differentiate.

Jackass.

Jackass.

And you sound completely unhinged. Just FYI.

Most of the vegetarians I knew were people who loved wine. And boy did they feel righteous about being vegetarians. And boy were they ever unaware of the tragic reality that the massive vineyards in Calif bring about.

Look at the difference between the kind of well maintained dairy we have here in Lake County, and Marin County Calif, and then look what happens when you allow for vineyards.

A dairy farmer nurtures the meadows and the grasslands. Because of those meadows and grasslands, the deer, skinks, lizards, skunks, badgers, fox, coyote, owls, hawks, woodpeckers, etc have a habitat where they can thrive.

Meanwhile up the road from the dairy farmers, the pear orchards are being decimated because the owners of the orchards feel they can make more money with less need for workers. So vineyards are going in and taking over.

Look at a vineyard. Miles of trellises with little plantings on them. Occassionally a bird, but only if that vineyard is near one of the remaining forested areas.

A local sports writer laments that 15% of the total Calif. deer population is killed each year through loss of habitat, with the wine industry being the numebr one reason why this habitat is being lost. There are no studies showing much about the rest of the animal population - but I can only imagine that if the deer go, so do all the other critters too. I never see much in the way of animal or bird lfie when I drive through the vineyards (Again, unless the vineyards still has forests behind it or on the side of it - but over time those will be gone too.)

My feeling is when I eat a hamburger, I am ensuring that the farmers will continue to provide meadows and pastures for not only the sake of the cows, but for the sake of the rest of the eco- system as well.

like, ted nugent would approve.

Wholeheartedly.

I will go fishing, kill, clean and cook my own fish. I don't think I could kill a bird or mammal, unless I was starving to death.

I think it's really hypocritical to eat something you couldn't kill. You are still killing that animal. You're just leaving the dirty work for others, because you can't "handle" it. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.

But I thought that it being played over and over must make the vegans heartsick.

Actually, what they do with the fish is one of the healthiest ways to preserve it. No chemicals, no artificial colors(as opposed to farmed salmon, which has to be died pink because it is fed fish meal rather than the shrimp wild salmon subsist on).

You're gonna need therapy if you ever visit a hamburger processing plant.

(and I AM a vegetarian, for the record).

And, no I am not going to visit a hamburger processing plant. That movie "Fast Food Nation" provided all the gory details..

Sadly, animals on this "progressive" site are still just largely fodder for us. They were left here for us to use and abuse, per the Bible (dominion). I mean God didn't make them out of meat for any other reason. Which to be honest is funny, because for all their blathering on hybrid vehicles and peak oil, and trumping Biblical bullshit too many refuse to make an immediate, direct change that would trump either. But that's not convenient, considering how selfishly good it tastes.

You'll be flamed for this. It's a given.

Which makes me wonder why you are even here if you can't stand us.

Let me know how that works for you.

Did you not say "Life" has no meaning here?

Nice try, though.

So, no go.

That "them" means people who eat meat. And if that's the case, I'm not sure how I was grasping at anything. In fact I think I nailed it pretty squarely.

is idiotic knee jerk bullshit. Grasp again. You nailed nothing but your mum.

What's the matter, can't argue your points like an adult?

And to make a point, yes my response was knee jerk reaction but then again, so was yours to the OP.

do you have anything...at all?

Any points to argue?

As for any points I have, I believe I have already made them.

mark

YOUR ethics is unchanged.

Sorry. You STILL don't get to tell me or anybody else what to eat. The corollary is that I don't tell you what to eat either, but I'm quite sure that's completely lost on you.

I expect a better definition from someone with an advanced degree.

When did I specifically tell you, poster, what to eat?

He is happy when people reduce their meat/animal product intake, but no, he has never told anyone what to eat.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Flvegan wants to get into the tub with her and massage her back. She also cares about animals hell of a lot more than you, which is actually quite sad, since you're allegedly a vet.

You are so full of sanctimonious shit. How dare you.

Call out the usuals?

Pity that.

Jim?

:beer:

And a beer never hurts either.

B_B_B_BBBBURRRPPPPP!!!!!!

Brilliant.

:boring:

In all his time here, I've never seen him contribute anything substantive to ANY discussion.

Just posts "this is shit," or some variation thereon, and runs like a coward.

:hi:

You people make me sick.

:rofl:

:shrug:

As if life was the issue for vegetarians? Hardly.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You can be all high and mighty, but don't be stupid with words.


If you can articulate how plants don't meet a biological definition of life when animals do, then you won't be weak.

Maybe you are a vegetarian if you're going to lose your appetite over a fish getting cleaned. :shrug:

One of the tremendous things they did was to thank the creator for providing the meal and bless the soul of the animal that was sacrificed so that the tribe could survive. A nice respect for the creatures I thought.

before eating what's the difference?

Due to our deep love for the Plant Kingdom, we only eat animals.

:D

Though I'd have trouble. The PA Dutch in me would have trouble giving up my Kraut.

poor innocent trees. :(

and, i'm no vegan.

there's a John Gardner short story called The Art of Living, which completely informs this for me. in the story, a special dish called Black Dog is to be prepared as an object lesson in the value of life and the living of it.

it always makes me feel better.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6020264244416084639

and i am a vegan .

hugs

Plants which have converted sunlight to sugars/carbs are much more energy efficient than animals which have to eat these converting only a small portion to edible matter and wasting the rest of energy in digesting it, running around etc. Vegetarians just cut out the middleman (animals).
The other good thing is less transportation of feed to the animals and then transportation of animal to slaughter is needed.
Good book to read is "DIet for a small Planet" by Francis Moore Lappe.

by humans. However ruminants can "convert sunlight" in marginal environments to high quality, digestible protein. They use less water and require much less intensive inputs than crop agriculture.

A better book is Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals.

It may be a better book but I found it a bit dry. Perhaps I have just read too many of the darn things. I liked the book "In Defense of Food" better.

food from stores. All of it raised by a very small segment of the population. Becoming more conscious and appreciative of all that you consume is a step to becoming the solution to a lot of problems. Giving up meat is a personal choice that can be made. However vegan/vegetarianism is NOT mandatory to becoming a good and decent human being, despite the perfected saints posting in this thread. I happen to be biased as I raise beef cattle, however I think I live a pretty decent life - rather low on the American consumer chain if you know what I mean. Sort of like being a better "christian" than 90% of the religious people I come across while being an atheist myself.

Yes animal are raised and killed to eat. It can be done in a respectful and humane manner. It is completely normal and natural. We are fully capable of recognizing the difference between beloved pets and food animals.

I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

My moral superiority is complete.

but nothing disturbed me about the Turkeys being killed. I've shot and killed things myself in my younger days with my dad. I don't hunt anymore because I hate standing out in the cold quietly with a gun. I grew up fishing and have cleaned my own fish. I always knew where meat came from and just really never had a problem with it. A lion or a tiger or a shark would rip me apart in a much more gruesome fashion than what was done to the Turkeys. Its the circle of life type of thing.

Most evolutionary theorist believe that the reason we evolved from the trees is our ability to get bone marrow from discarded carcuses which in turn gave us the protien to have larger brains. We have never been a species of vegetarianism. I'm sure we can survive but fuck it I like meat. I know where it comes from and it doesn't bother me in the least.

http://vegweb.com/index.php?board=304.0

I really like this recipe: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=7429.0 Sometimes, I add small chunks of seitan to it. Top with vegan gravy - yum!

I also have a recipe for an outstanding lentil loaf that incorporates a tube of Gimme Lean. It's a little labor intensive, but really good! If you're interested, let me know.

...could you pm the lentil loaf recipe (or a link to it) to me. (Sorry to jump in here, I don't mean to intrude). Lentil loaf sounds delicious, and I'm always on the look out for good veggie dishes. :)

I prefer it greatly over Tofurkey, which doesn't quite taste like turkey. I think I save money, too.

Reread your statement. You know there is suffering that goes into meat meals and you're even turned off of various flesh, for that very reason. So logic would say that you are on your way to becoming a vedge! Hope so:)

Sadly, it's not vegan--they use egg whites as a binding agent--but it's a great option for vegetarians and the vegi-curious. ;)

http://www.quorn.com/

And welcome to DU, dualitybites!

:hi:

Two years ago I went to a local country fair and was watching some livestock judging going on. In the ring was a beautiful black angus bull. We weren't more than ten feet apart...I looked into his eyes and saw a soul....that's when I realized that he was probably headed very soon for the nearest meat packing plant or something. My heart and stomach just seized right up and I wanted to cry, especially since I had, not 20 minutes before, finished a big juicy cheeseburger.

From that day on I have not been able to eat beef of any kind.

And I suffer pangs of guilt when I eat pork or ham....chicken and turkey to a lesser extent, although there is still some guilt.

About the only protein I can eat now without feeling like a murderer is seafood.

Having a conscience is not for sissies...

Just sayin'.

I love the Holidays.