A quesion on the Black Friday Walmart Death.

Walmart issued a statement that said:

"The statement said the store added internal security, brought in outside security, erected barricades and worked with Nassau County police in anticipation of heavy crowds."

A friend of mine is saying this shows that Walmart did take steps to control the crowd and prevent the tragedy.

The way I heard it, the employees were forming a human chain to try and stop the rush of people. This does not sound like internal security, outside security, or barricades were brought to bear to me.

Can anyone substantiate or refute Walmart's claims?

Barbarian consumers need to be treated like barbarians!

and some security out in the lot working the line.

If nothing else, and trust me there's plenty else, it's a sheer embarrassment for people to go ape-shit over some device on sale and be prepared, in such an amoral rush, to end up as a participant in the death of a fellow citizen.

That's BAD.

And not in a good way.

The question here is should or could Walmart have forseen this kind of "ape-shit" behavior.

The answer is, clearly, yes.

As the Youtube videos from Walmart Black Friday sales in 2006 and 2007, this kind of behavior has been seen before.

Clearly this whole event is orchestrated and advertised to be a purchase-frenzy-inducing affair. This is done with advertised special opening hours, advertised low prices for a limited duration of time, and advertised limited stocks of inventory - all advertised with the express intent of creating an atmosphere of urgency. It worked, and it is no surprise that it worked.

Is "the crowd" to blame for their rampant consumerism and falling victim to being manipulated into such a frenzy? Yes.

But don't doubt for a second that Walmart created this situation.

Hear, Hear!!!

I second that!

it's a sheer embarrassment for people to go ape-shit over some device on sale and be prepared, in such an amoral rush, to end up as a participant in the death of a fellow citizen


I agree. But they do.

So if you happen to be one of the entities responsible for encouraging and benefiting from this crap you also have a responsibility to take reasonable measures to provide for the safety of the lemmings that heed your call. :shrug:

So if you happen to be one of the entities responsible for encouraging and benefiting from this crap you also have a responsibility to take reasonable measures to provide for the safety of the lemmings that heed your call.

Man, I've been looking for these words for two days. F'ing brilliant assessment.

Between being told I said something brilliant and one of my threads making the greatest page I might need to be measured for a new hat! lol

Thank you.

ColbertWatcher did a fantastic job putting all of that information together.

From everything that I've seen from the scene at that store and from previous incidents at Walmart they most definitely DO NOT use proper crowd control techniques.

When you look at the photos do you see any barriers? Any security outside directing people into an orderly line? If they had beefed up their security why was no one outside working the crowd? Why was a seasonal temp hired as maintenance stationed in front of the door?

Have you heard or read a single word from their Loss Prevention staff? I've read lots of news articles where they quote various "associates" - not a single one has identified themselves as security or even mentioned the security staff.

They abso-fucking-lutely dropped the ball and whatever they are saying to the contrary is just corporate "OMG we're gonna get sued!" bullshit. Walmart lies. Water is wet. That is all.

I don't see any barriers or any "security" staff.

It sounds like Walmart hired some extra workers for the day, but, like the fellow who died, they were hired from a temp agency with no security training or crowd control background.

Throwing a few more minimum wage workers into a human chain isn't going to stop 2000 frenzied shoppers.

... it is not clear what job Djimytai Damour was hired to perform.

What I read said he had no training in security or crowd control.

... that the attitude or demeanor of the crowd is irrelevant.

Hillsborough showed that violence isn't necessary for a death to occur in a crowd disaster.

The presence or absence of crowd control determines whether people will be safe in a public crowd or be hurt or killed.

I heard he was hired as a "overnight stock clerk" in one place, a "clerk" in another and a "security guard" in still another.

Looks like Wal-mart is hoping to confuse everyone as to what job Djimytai was doing that night/morning.

I read something today about his size being a factor in why they stationed him in front of the door. Apparently he was a large man. I don't know if it's true that that's why they sent him to the door, but I wouldn't doubt it.

And if it is true it pisses me off even more. (As if that were possible.)


You know I'm in the Loss Prevention field, but you probably don't know that I'm a little 5'4" middle aged woman. My ex-husband, like Jdimytai Damour, is a very large built black man with absolutely NO training in crowd control. I don't know if there's such a thing recognized as "size discrimination", but I think there should be. My ex-husband is and always has been a "gentle giant" of a person and he's been taken advantage of his whole adult life - treated like a pack mule/hired muscle by employers and even friends. Need something heavy hauled somewhere? Call XXXX! Got yourself into a threatening situation? Call XXXX!

Yeah, a big guy might appear intimidating but I know for a fact that when it comes to keeping order or taking down a violent subject that a big soft teddy bear like my ex-husband would NOT be the one to call on.

It is often joked that's the reason why the French are so short; Napoleon's "big guys on the front lines" removed all the tall genes from the Gallic peoples.

BTW, if you watch the LiveLeak video of the EMS people working on him, you can see how big he is.

And they CAN fall!

Story time! I'm feeling "chatty"! lol

Back in the 80s when retail security was still supposed to "use reasonable force" to detain a fleeing or fighting shoplifter my department found itself, through attrition and coincidence staffed totally with small framed people like myself. My manager who "towered" at 5'6" got this idea that what we needed was some obvious muscle. Yeah, we were making our apprehensions but he felt more shoplifters were "trying us" physically than should happen and he blamed our collective physical stature. The Ant Hill Gang...

So he hired a big muscle bound guy, formerly a physical trainer from Gold's Gym. The guy couldn't even keep little old ladies from rolling over him at closing time. He had horrible situational awareness and the reflexes of a slug. Luckily for us he realized pretty early on that the job required more brains than brawn and moved on.

Nothing against big guys or small guys - you just can't make judgments about what people can do based on their size. It's like how people are always expecting tall skinny guys to play basketball. It makes me sick that that poor man, with no training, was sent out to essentially stop a train. As if he'd be capable simply because he was a big guy.

I haven't seen the video and don't think I can watch it yet but thanks.

Ain't that the truth.

Conventional wisdom says that sprinters shouldn't be tall and lanky.

(Skip forward to about 1:29) http://cricketsbestvideos.blogspot.com/2008/08/usain-bolt-200m-video-world-record-at.html

Sorry about the quality of that video, tis the best I can find

that good. LOL

.

that people could be hurt during this Black Friday exercise, executed very much like Black Friday sales of the past? Did they take responsible precautions to circumvent previous problems?

While Wal Mart MAY have done what they've stated, none of that was in place in the staging area for the rush of consumers it would appear.

Like the videos posted show, this happened in 2006 and 2007. Nobody died, but people were falling down and very well could have.

Crane, Poole & Schmidt would take on and sue the Big Box Store that was at the root of this.

Also - it scares me everytime I go into a food store like a Kroger; Jewel; Dominick's; etc. They usually have only two access doors (one on each side of the store)and small vestibule areas. I always worry that if something like a fire or other mishap happened in the store - it would be hard to get out of the store due to lack of access. To me that is an accident waiting to happen. We'll be reading about a tragedy at one of these types of stores in the future. But that is the accepted design of food stores - they all kind of look the same in terms of access. I'm sure it has something to do with protecting the store from 'shoplifters' - but I believe they are endangering their patrons in the process.

Here's another observation. This was a store sale of gifty type merchandise - not really essential items - like food, water, blankets, cots. If this is how a crowd reacts for gifty type non-essential items - how would the same crowd react if they were hungry, thirsty, cold or overtired.

I shudder to think if this country goes into a full blown depression and we have bread lines again. And they call us civilized.

The next time you're in these stores that make you nervous take a look around the side walls or towards the back of the store for fire exits. A big problem in emergencies such as fires is that people tend to go in the direction that they're familiar with or to the doors they entered from even if it's not the nearest exit.

It'll make you feel better if you can see that their are emergency exits and you'll be better prepared in the event that you ever find yourself in that kind of emergency situation.

Oh - and one more important point: Many Emergency Exit doors have a time delay on them. Only 10 or 15 seconds from when you hit the bar till they open - so don't panic if it takes a few seconds for the doors to open.

I don't ever recall seeing a Fire Door or Fire Exit in any of these food stores - at least not in full view. Now they might be behind the scenes - where the stockrooms are or where the refrigerators are loaded or in the butcher shop - but I don't recall ever seeing one in full view - in the shopping area. Next time I go to one of these stores - I'll will be on the lookout for them. Thanks.

I'm glad you'll look for them. I'm fairly certain that you'll find them once you look. They generally do sort of blend into the background. One good thing - if there's a fire the emergency lights over them will come on to light the way and hopefully call attention to their locations.

We've been squatting on the Frugal and Energy Efficient Living Group's forum! (LOL)

Anyway, if you do post something about Emergency Preparedness (EP), you're asked to post "EP/" at the beginning of your subject.

I've gotta get out of GD more often!

So, we decided to squat on that frugal one.

FORESEEABLE. Very important word in tort law. Wally World will be sued for wrongful death and they will be held liable due to foreseeability and failure to take preventive measures.


I am a lawyer but I do not play one on TV. :evilgrin: