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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:03 AM
Original message
OBAMA: "I am a fierce advocate for gay and lesbian americans"
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:04 AM by kpete
"I am a fierce advocate for gay and lesbian americans"

just now on MSNBC
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do we believe his words, or his actions?
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:07 AM by TechBear_Seattle
He gives a very prominent platform to very outspoken opponent of gay men and women WHO WAS AT THE FOREFRONT OF STRIPPING AMERICANS OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL CIVIL RIGHTS at what is likely to be the most important media event of most of our lifetimes. That speaks far, FAR louder than any talk of advocacy or inclusiveness.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. He gives him 2 minutes -
Hasn't he appointed openly gay people to his cabinet?

That speaks louder (and has a longer impact than 2 minutes).

Gay man backed for Navy secretary
Thursday, December 18, 2008
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/18/gay-man-backed-for-navy-secretary/

First openly LGBT person named to Obama's cabinet
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=33670&type=gaylesbian

Things in perspective
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yeah but those are actual appointments; symbols speak louder than actions, you know
Bryant
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Errmmm, okay
:shrug:

Personally I think the appointments speak louder than the prayer.

2 minutes versus 4 years - where's the balance
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
160. You have a point. I still don't like the symbol...

But what you have there, see, is a point.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
161. Also, sarcasm tag. Helps.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Doesn't matter...
you invite the wrong man to the party and it's over, before it ever began.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Is that what the homophobes believe, that he is friends with gays
so he has to be gay and he must hate the hetrosexuals of the world?

I get very confused when it comes to closed minded, bigotted thought no matter the orientation of the the thinker.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
77. I don't know if homophobes..
even know what they believe..I think it's all fear and ignorance. I understand throwing a bone to the religious right..they're Americans too...but I wish there were a fundy preacher who was more open-minded. I guess there are, or at least one who isn't so notorious..but..it is what it is.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. you may want to consider the perspective this writer brings to the subject
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
98. That's just dumb
Come on, your 'analogy' is utterly lame. Reality doesn't work that way when it comes to how a US President operates.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #98
173. I'm sorry? I don't have two realities...
Obama made a bad choice. Every time I make a bad choice there are consequences, which many times is how I know it was a bad choice. You can't un-ring the bell on this one. It would be nice if he acknowledged the error, and made an attempt to right it, but that's his thing.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #173
174. You know what I mean
The "party" isn't over; it hasn't even begun yet. You implied that everything Obama does from now on is somehow tainted. I was merely pointing out how silly that idea is.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. the 'party' I was referring to..
is the inauguration.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. HE IS, YET AGAIN, GIVEN A VIRULENT HOMOPHOBE A NATIONAL PLATFORM
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:23 AM by TechBear_Seattle
For crying out loud, how difficult is this to understand? The length of time is irrelevant.

The fact that someone like Warren or McClurkin is being given that kind of prominence shows that Obama is being disingenuous or worse, is flat-out lying, about being an advocate. Advocates do not give such a platform to those who oppose what they allegedly support, except when openly challenging the opponents' beliefs. And I doubt very, very much that Obama will call Warren out for being a bigot, not at his own inauguration.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. And he is giving openly gay people positions in his cabinet
which last a hell of a lot longer than the 2 minutes to Warren.

Perspective is everything.

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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. So the MANY groups and individuals who are very angry at this are... what?
Deluded? Misguided? Pissy drama queens that can be dismissed with a casual wave of your hand?

Where the fuck gives you the right to say that we have no right to be angry?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. You have the right to be angry if that is what you want to be.
I don't deny you your feelings, I've tried to help provide the proper perspective.

4 years versus 2 minutes - :shrug:

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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
72. THere's a distinction between saying you shouldn't be angry
and saying you should have some perspective along with your anger; obviously using Warren is something to get angry about. But you have to balance it with his other actions.

Bryant
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
101. Name one
He has, as of right now, appointed zero, count them zero, openly gay people to his cabinet. There are rumors he is thinking of a gay sec of Labor.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #101
139. not true
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=33670&type=gaylesbian

With Nancy Sutley joining Team Obama as chairwoman of the Council on Environmental Quality, she becomes the first prominent, openly gay or lesbian to join the Cabinet.

She is currently L.A.'s deputy mayor for energy and environment and the mayor's rep on the board of directors for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California. Most politically intriguing: She was a member of Hillary Clinton's California Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender steering committee during the state's primary. Oh, Obama, that's so "Team of Rivals" of you to invite her.

Another Bay Area-Obama LGBT connection: Former SF Supe/mayoral also-ran Roberta Achtenberg is one of seven open LGBT folks on Obama's transition advisory crew. You may recall that back in 1993 Achtenberg was the first openly gay public official appointed to a federal position (assistant HUD czar during the Clinton administration) that had to be confirmed by the U.S. Senate. That didn't seem to be much of a problem for most senators, except for Sen. Jesse Helms, who subtly explained his reasons for blocking her appointment: "Because she's a damn lesbian."
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #139
158. I don't think that is a cabinet position
it isn't EPA for example. If I am wrong I will say so, but to my knowledge this isn't a cabinet position. I will admit it is a high level appointment but it isn't cabinet level.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Then please write the author of the article and complain.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 03:24 PM by merh
And if White gets Secretary of the Navy, will you acknowledge his post?

Of course, I notice how you ignore the people on his transition team, but hey, so what, they aren't giving a prayer.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #159
163. I am glad he appointed people to his transition team
I think Ms Actenburg should have been given HUD which is why I ignored her placement on the transition team. I would love to see a gay secretary of the navy and while it isn't a cabinet position either, I would count it as one for this purpose given the nature of the position. I don't know enough about the enviromental council to be sure one way or the other as to cabinet equivalency. For example, does she need Senate approval? That is my problem with the transition team appointments for example.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. If you read the article I linked you to, you will see that even Actenburg
needed senate approval as an assistant at HUD.

If I am not mistaken, all of his appointments require approval. Normally there are lists provided to the senate and they vote.

As to Actenburg, perhaps she didn't want HUD, has that ever crossed your mind?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. When Clinton appointed Actenburg she did need Senate approval
but Obama's transition team didn't. As to her wanting or not wanting HUD if he had asked she would have done it.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #165
179. and maybe, like Jarrett
she hopes for something that is within his circle.

Did she tell you she wanted HUD?

If you are in contact with her, have you asked her to go to Obama about your dislike of Warren's participation?
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
146. So if I help a few old ladies and then only beat one to death with a hammer
I get a pass on that last one?
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
49. Rick Warren will get A LOT of TV
time as the inauguration approaches. He will use this time to deliver his message of hate.

He'll get way more than two minutes in the media spotlight. The media smell blood.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
52. A "National Platform"? Are you KIDDING us?
He's not giving him ANY goddamn platform. The man is reading a freaking INVOCATION, not delivering a policy address to the nation. That's not a "platform" of any kind.

It is absolutely HILARIOUS that you are actually here trying to argue that a completely meaningless 2 minute long ceremonial address is a probable indicator Obama is lying about being an advocate while dismissing the fact that he's putting gay people IN THE ADMINISTRATION at CABINET LEVEL POSTS as somehow just not counting or something. You're like a special kind of clueless aren't you?
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #52
149. Well you're a special kind of apologist. Aren't your next words supposed to be
"get over it"?
:grr:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
79. Gee, I remember this other preacher spoke on Obama's behalf,
and Obama immediately went on the air and publicly castigated him, saying that this preacher did NOT speak for him, and his ideals and principles were completely at odds with what that preacher said.

You think that if, during the invocation, Warren says ANYTHING that is at odds with Obama's stated positions he will not immediately disavow those statements, thus making his true positions even clearer?

Obama's style is, and has always been, to allow opponents the rope with which they hang themselves. If Warren uses this invocation to voice anything more than the blandest generic public prayer Obama will make him look like a fool on nationwide television within 36 hours.

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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
42. OK, let's hypothesize....a white president selects a minister
who is anti black to deliver the invocation at his inauguration....BUT that same president has also selected many people of color as cabinet members.
IMHO, the person selected to deliver the invocation is one with whom the president agrees on spiritual matters
The appointments are done for purely POLITICAL reasons and nothing else.

Look we saw how quickly Obama cast aside Rev Wright when he became a political liability, so it does not surprise me that in choosing the minister to do the invocation, Obama leans to the FAR right.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. God, you sound just like the freepers when they bitch about
Wright - Obama has to believe what Wright believes, he just has to.

I betcha atheists are pissed that there is even an invocation.

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
108. Actually...
I do not think that Obama believes what Warren believes. I also do not think that Obama is a "fierce advocate". I do think that inviting a known bigot to participate one of the most important events in history is a fucking kick in the teeth.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. How many gays have you appointed to a cabinet post?
And if Warren is a kick in the teeth, what does Lowery represent?

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #114
118. Which GLBT people are in Obama's cabinet?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Nancy Sutley for one.
And hopefully, William White.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. What Cabinet positin does Ms Sutley hold?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #128
156. Here...
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
147. Yes but that's not (currently) a subject for cancellation. He's welcome to keep the tradition
but there was absolutely no need to pick a homophobic motherfucker to do it.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
190. Well, yes, we are.
but we got over it.

:popcorn:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. It's a freaking invocation...comprised of a few words.
Those words, which you claim don't matter anyway, will not reflect a message of hate, exclusion, or division.

Obama's actions regarding moving this country forward with a positive civil rights agenda will "speak" plenty loud. Watch.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. A few words spoken at the most important media event of most of our lifetimes
And you fail to answer the question: Do we believe Obama's actions or his words on this matter?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. Both.
:)
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GrizzlyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
135. I'll answer this
1. Actions do matter. This pick of Warren is highly annoying in both the sense that I'll have to turn the channel when he speaks and that he's a doofus and a hate monger. But we're in the first and often awkward steps of a new administration. Perspective matters too.

2. The impact of the cleric Warren's prayer is overstated. The few who are paying attention will have forgotten it within moments of its conclusion.

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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. Whoa! Thanks for injecting a bit of reason to this conversation.
That is refreshing.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
43. yeah, never mind his long history of sponsoring and voting for GLBT
friendly legislation in both the Illinois and U.S. Senate. Nevermind, his speaking up for GLBT rights for years. Nevermind his written polices.

Yeah, having Warren give the invocation was a sucky decision and he should be called on it, but to insist that it's more important than his history of support for GLBT issues? That doesn't make much sense.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. Never mind his opposition to gay marriage and giving Donnie McClurkin a platform to spew bigotry?
Sorry, but Obama has not been a great champion of gay rights so far. Hopefully someday that will change, but he needs to be taken to task on this issue.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
83. BULLCRAP - he's done NO SUCH THING.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #83
111. oh, yes he has. suck on these FACTS.
In the Illinois Senate he sponsored legislation banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

In the U.S. Senate he cosponsored legislation that expanded the definition of hate crimes to include crimes committed on the basis of gender identity and sexual orientation.

Obama supports expanding the Empoyment Non-Discrimination Act to include sexual orientation.

He supports repealing DODT.

He does not support DOMA.

He supports gays and lesbians being able to adopt.

He supports extending federal rights to gays and lesbians in civil unions.

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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:17 PM
Original message
right,
So the question regarding the conflict between Obama's historical support of LGBT issues and his selection of Warren is -- Does he not know there is a conflict, or does he not care? Either option is disappointing.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
107. What history is that? Thanks in advance. NT
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Was there an ending to that?
Like "I am a fierce advocate for gay and lesbian americans to STFU!"?

It's funny how his inclusion includes anti-gay but never anti-any other group.
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Responding to
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:08 AM by peace frog
the large volume of protests regarding the good Reverend Warren's prominent role in the inaugural, perhaps?
Methinks it ain't gonna fly.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. That is ridiculous. You cannot be a fierce advocate and
allow a homophobe on the stage of your swearing in.

But it's good to hear he's getting the message about his ridiculous choice.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes you can
Tell me about his cabinet appointments - has he made Warren a member of his cabinet?

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. No. And it is clear that you do not understand nor care to the pain
of the GLBT community.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. That isn't true at all
I both understand and care - I just don't see how 2 minutes compares to a 4 year appointment.

You know Sunni Muslims bitch that the Shia Muslims are invited to the table in Iraq and vice-a-versa.

And I am sure the homophobes are upset that he has appointed or intends to appoint openly gay people to his cabinet (or that they may even be members of his staff).

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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. 2 Minutes In front of Widest Audience
in inauguration history.

And this nonsense about Warner being an advocate against poverty - isn't every Christian leader supposed to be helping the poor?

I hope Warren gets booed.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. He'll be booed, as he should
But it won't be just gays booing him or gay advocates - there are people who don't believe religion should be mixed with politics

I still think 4 years outweighs 2 minutes.

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
57. Two minutes is much longer than one thinks. The symbolic value appears to be
lost on you.

The clear and unadulterated kick in the teeth of those two minutes. Whether he is booed or not is irrelevant; the fact that he was given the honor in light of his ways is shameful.

It really does speak to people's character that they cannot see this. We have so much longer to go to realize our potential for compassion.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. No, what is lost on you is the person who will close out the show
(They save the best for last.) He will suck the air out of the room and no one will remember Warren.

Remember symbols.

-snip-

A man who received a standing ovation at Coretta Scott King's funeral, the same woman who spoke out strongly that gay rights are a civil rights issue-a woman who endorsed gay marriage.

On April 1, 1998 at The Palmer House Hilton in Chicago, King called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood", King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."

I think President-Elect Obama knew that in order to have Reverend Lowery speak that he had to choose a 'known' mega-preacher. I think Pastor Warren was chosen as the lesser of the available evils. It had to be someone annointed by the right.

The aspect I keep coming back to, is that Pastor Warren is outmatched. That will be evident. His appearance won't matter as much as he thinks it does right now. Not after Reverend Lowery starts to speak and continues the thread of tolerance and civil rights for all that Coretta Scott King tried to get the Southern Baptist Convention to embrace. He won't shine like a new nickel when Reverend Lowery is done with him and the ideals of Pastor Warren's proponents will not shine in comparison to the truth-that we are all created equal and until we are all equal someone isn't doing God's work. You can bet that Reverend Lowery knows exactly what kind of demon he will be facing, he has an entire lifetime under his belt casting them out. And winning.

If I were Rick Warren, I would be praying to go last. Or I would be planning a family emergency for January 19th.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2512


And you can take your personal attacks on me and stick them away, they are not called for in the debate setting and they are unwarranted. Trying to bring perspective and calm when others are just reacting and not thinking is not a bad thing, it is not a homophobe thing, it is just what it is.

And yes, FOUR YEARS trumps 2 minutes and the Reverend Joseph E. Lowery will get the last word at President Obama’s Inauguration his words, not Warren's, will last.

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
121. Nope-- the benediction red herring does not change the fact that
a bigot and a homophobe is "opening the show" Folks don't watch the benediction in the same numbers as the invocation.

As for perspective, calm, and personal attacks; you support the decision or try and analyze it away...you show your character. And folks who wish to push the GLBT community to corner and then cry foul when they are called out? Tough.

This is discourse. My comments on character are quite called for when someone makes a heinous comment in a discussion.

As for calm? I'm completely calm, clear-headed, and determined. Supporting bigotry is what is not called for. A complete lack of empathy and perspective being shown to the GLBT community is what is not called for.

I am disappointed that people cannot wrap their soul around the idea that this decision is a slap in the face. Talk about lack of perspective.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #121
137. Folks don't watch the invocation.
That is when most folks get their beverages or go refresh themselves before the inauguration speech.

Tell me, what do you remember of the invocations during other inaugurations?

Who gave them, what was said?

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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
58. It's Tradition
and at every Obama rally some pastor/preacher, etc... said a prayer.

An Episcopalian would have been a good choice, they don't rail against gays and have women and gays as priests.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. Check out the fellow giving the benediction
Reverend Joseph E. Lowery Will Get the Last Word at President Obama’s Inauguration

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2512

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3j9ltp1qM8&eurl=http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2512

Will words become deeds that meet needs?




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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Symbols have value, often more than concrete things
And from your utter disregard, I have to agree that you neither understand nor care. Who are you to say that the outrage from GLBT organizations and individuals is wrong and misguided? What the fuck gives you the right to denounce our anger?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
47. Oh, so in the other post you are all upset because I don't respect
your feelings yet here you are disregarding mine. Can you say double standards?

I think that 4 years outweighs 2 minutes.

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. Billions may watch the inauguration. 2 minutes from a man who helped
strip civil rights away the same day that another civil rights issue reached a milestone is unacceptable to any person who truly understands the notion of civil rights.

The message is damning.

Obama has shown weakness of character and compassion in this choice. He should be ashamed of himself.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. And so they watch
The four years in a cabinet position have a greater impact

I personally don't think there should be any prayer - that doesn't mean I think he hates me because he is having it.

perspective and balance
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #35
60. Perspective? It is clear that you have missed that boat. A public supporter of Prop 8 is being
being rewarded and honored by this choice.

There is no balance or perspective to analyze this away.

The true mettle of some people is being revealed here today.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. It is you that has missed the boat.
And your personal attacks are pretty pitiful.

So I don't think the 2 minutes to Warren equal the 4 year appointments and I think the benediction will be far more powerful than the invocation.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. When Obama honors someone who says Katrina victims are to blame for themselves,
and you approve, I'll take you seriously.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Who knows, maybe Warren has said that.
I don't care and don't think his 2 minutes equal the 4 year appointments or what Reverend Lowery will bring when he gives the benediction.

I betcha the Sunnis have the same issues with the Shias, they hate to have to share the same stage.

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
125. Then you have missed a chance at seeing the pain that this choice
has created for millions.

What you think is yours to think. Living in a diverse world, however, obligates one to think beyond themselves and realize that others differ and that maybe, just maybe, their pain is more important than your opinion.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #125
143. Again, don't attribute to me feelings or indifference that are not accurate.
I see the pain, I'd have to be blind not to. I also see that the pain is caused by a lack of balance and proper perspective. You choose to continue to allow this to cause you the pain.

The invocation, the prayers themselves, are insulting to those who do not believe in religion and/or to those that believe that religion has no place in politics. They are not assuming by the prayers that Obama will be a religious zealot.

Lowery is an advocate of same-sex marriage, he is a stronger voice for civil rights than Warren could ever hope to be for anything. Do I think Obama is mistaken to try to play both sides? Yes.

Do I think it means his presidency is doomed? No.

Do I think he doesn't care? No - if he didn't care he wouldn't have asked Lowery to give the closing prayer.

Do I think he will work for the rights of the GLBT community? Yes, he has gays on staff - he is not blind to discrimination and I would venture to guess he has more experience with discrimination than you could ever imagine.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. LOL. What does that have to do with his statement that he's
a fierce advocate of the gay community?

Barney Frank is a fierce advocate.

I'm a fierce advocate along with my fellow outspoken members of the GLBT community at DU.

But Barack Obama, who opposes same sex marriage and just signed off on allowing a fucking homophobe on the stage next month cannot be a fierce advocate.

Sorry, the definition doesn't allow that to be possible.

An advocate?

We can argue that.

But a fierce advocate. That's ridiculous.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. So - ignoring orientation and giving gays positions in his cabinet
is not advocacy enough?

I mean, who has Barney Franks appointed to his cabinet?

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. WOOOSH
right over your noggin
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. No, it appears it is over you noggin
Who have you appointed to a cabinet post lately?

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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
172. Enough of positioning gays in cabinets.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Agreed
Giving a bigot the biggest platform in the world and always opposing gay marriage only proves that Obama doesn't give a shit about the GLBT community.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
86. So what does giving that same platform to a preacher that supports
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 12:37 PM by merh
same sex marriage mean?

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. That's like asking what it means when FOX puts Hannity on with Colmes.
Fair and balanced?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. But in this situation, Lowery will definitely be the speaker that
will be remembered. Warren is more the Colmes, he will be a blip on the radar.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. When Obama gives a KKK member a special honor I'll take it seriously. And even
if you DO think he's an advocate for GLBT people, it's a farce to suggest he's a "fierce advocate".
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. So tell me, how many cabinet posts have you given to a gay?
Actions do indeed speak loudly.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. "A gay" is not GLBT people. Bush gave Condi Rice a job - didn't make him an advocate for
women or racial minorities.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #97
106. Yeah, I'm sure this guy as Secretary of the Navy will have no impact.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/18/gay-man-backed-for-navy-secretary/

And tell me, when did an invocation every make policy? I don't remember the invocations from other inaugurations, were they important in the policy of the president?

Who gave them?

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. More strawmen from you. Hiring a person doesn't make you a "fierce advocate" for
the group(s) that person belongs to.

And no one said the invocation = policy. No one said it, so your post about it is a non issue.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. The invocation equals policy?
Okay, so who set the Clinton Policy, who gave the invocations for him?

What about Reagan?

Bush I and II?

How about Nixon?

How about Kennedy?

Johnson?

Carter?

It is Obama who says what his policy is - Lowery will close out the show (I am never in my seat for the invocation, that is when I can go get my beverage or refresh myself so I don't have to leave during the true show).

And yes, a gay man as Secretary of the Navy does have an impact "it would renew focus on the "don't ask, don't tell" policy as President-elect Barack Obama prepares to take office."

and there are those who oppose it because of the impact is has.

"It's a matter of judgment, and I think that would be very poor judgment on the part of the commander in chief," said Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, which opposes gays serving in the military. "It would be very demoralizing to the troops."

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Read again. "No one said invocation = policy". No one said it, so you're arguing against
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 01:14 PM by mondo joe
your own sad strawman.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. Oh, so you concede that the invocation has nothing to do with policy
yet you ignore that the appointments to the cabinet actually do have some policy impact.

At least I am debating the issues. I think you are missing which has greater impact, a prayer or a cabinet post.

You make light of the cabinet posts while getting all wound up about 2 minutes that do not equate to policy. Seems a bit extreme to me.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Concede? I never argued that it did. By the way, which cabinet posts are you referring
to?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #122
126. Nancy Sutley
With Nancy Sutley joining Team Obama as chairwoman of the Council on Environmental Quality, she becomes the first prominent, openly gay or lesbian to join the Cabinet.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=33670&type=gaylesbian
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. Thank you. NT
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #95
119. Which GLBT people are in Obama's cabinet?
Thanks.
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PFunk Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. Actions NOT Words ....
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:12 AM by PFunk
And so far Mr Obama your actions aren't like your words. But I agree it proves that he'll at least listen when the his feet is under the fire.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. I am a fierce advocate and to prove it I am promoting a gay hater on the national stage
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:14 AM by Robbien
There. Don't you see how much I respect GLBTs?
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. except the marriage part. nt.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. Really? Did you fiercely campaign against Prop 8?
Unless you are for full equality, including marriage, you can not call yourself that.


STFU, OBAMA.
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JohnnieGordon Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. He thinks dropping the word "gay" into a speech makes him Harvey Milk reincarnated n/t
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. "STFU, OBAMA."
So that's what it's come to here on DU? Wow. Words fail.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
56. Yes - when my rights get trampled.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
185. "STFU OBAMA" - repeating for emphasis.
Fierce advocate for equality*

*except for the equality part.

(Next up, Obama explains how he fiercely opposed the Iraq war by repeatedly voting to fund it.)

I am neither impressed nor surprised.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #185
186. Great analogy!
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. Oh give me a fucking break. No you are not.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:18 AM by closeupready
:mad:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. Fierce as a 4 day old kitten.
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. Then stop giving misogynistic homophobes the stage, Mr. President-Elect
Even for two minutes, it's very symbolic. And if you give him an inch, he'll take it twenty miles.
It's that simple.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #26
48. That's right
Kill the homophobes! figuratively

That'll teach 'em!

OR:

Don't even talk to homophobes.
Don't give them jobs. Kick them out of their houses.
Shun them. Make them wear colors and shit so we know who they are!
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. Of course, that's nowhere near what I said, but you already know that.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:49 AM by Hong Kong Cavalier
Warren already has his own stage. Let him use that one.
Giving him this one legitimizes his bigoted, misogynistic beliefs in front of a much wider audience.
And he'll take this appearance and run with it.

But you already knew that, and simply attempted to put words into my mouth that I did not say.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Ahhh
Don't take it personal, you were just sitting there when the target appeared so nicely.

So, what do you think? I get the feeling that some here think homophobes should be excluded
because of their thoughts of disgust with homos. Kinda like thought police, eh? What say you?
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. Not necessarily, But think on this...
*Dons Toby Ziegler hat* (If you don't know who Toby Ziegler is, see The West Wing. He had some righteous rants on that show, and is one of my favorite characters on it.)

If Warren were anti-Semitic, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If Warren were racist, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If Warren advocated slavery, like parts of the Old Testament did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So why is President-Elect Obama allowing a man who equates gay marriage with incest a national platform at our President's inauguration?

Rick Warren: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

Rick Warren: Oh I do.


Warren also wouldn't try to stop Bush from torturing because he "doesn't deal with policy issues".

And now he's getting what essentially is a Presidential endorsement on a national stage for his beliefs.

When do we stand get to stand up and say he's a bigot? On a large enough stage as the one he's being handed?
That he's a homophobe?
That he's misogynistic.
That he simply hates people because they're born different than him?
When?

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Eh?
Warren can go fly a kite.

But he has a LARGE following. I have always found that you get your enemies close. I have a feeling that is what Obama is doing, and I trust that he is doing just that. What better way to get him to change his stupid mind than get him close enough to talk sense to him?

Now, it appears you are evading my main thrust and now that you see we agree on Warren, what do you think about the mindset that says we exclude all those who think or act differently than we do? It is anti-American, isn't it? Just because someone like Warren does it doesn't give us the right to, eh?
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. But he has his own stage. And he has his freedom of speech.
If you keep your enemies close enough, they'll be able to stab you in the back.
If Obama can actually convince the man that his stance against gay marriage is wrong, then more power to him. I don't see it happening, though.

But I think you're just trying to get me in the trap of saying "no, we should exclude homophobes from the conversation" and then you can go "Ah-HAH! You're anti-American!"

That was my point from before, although I made it in a roundabout way. This is more to my point, (and if it gets you your "Ah-HAH!" moment, then so be it.)

I don't need to talk to a racist to know I don't think his views on race are relevant to the national discourse. They won't contribute anything to the discussion.
I also don't need to talk to someone who thinks that women should stay in the home and not work or vote if I'm trying to have a real conversation about gender equality. They won't contribute anything to the discussion, either. Let them

You just seem like you're wanting to trap these rightfully angry people in the "anti-American" label. :shrug:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Now
Look who's putting words onto someone else!!

Tell ya what: you do need to talk to all those assholes. It's called communication. It is either war, or communication, take your pick.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Ohhh, *communication*! When will Obama give a place of honor to a KKK mmber
or a NeoNazi so as to COMMUNICATE?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. Tell ya what
You buy shit from nazis and KKK people, so you are your problem. Admit it. Go ahead.

You have met the enemy and it is you. Now, don't talk to yourself. Don't communicate. You'll be fine, eh?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. WTF are you talking about? (Other than evading the point?)
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. Huh
Can't you read what I wrote? You communicate with the enemy everyday. You buy their shit. Admit it.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. Are there NeoNazis or KKK members being given national historic honors?
If that's "communication" why isn't a KKK member being honored so as to *communicate*?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #102
144. The Klan is a terrorist group...
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 02:20 PM by NorthernSpy
Say what you will about Warren and his organization, they don't have a history of committing acts of terror.


So no, it's not at all the same thing.



(edited to add the word "his")
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #144
150. Depends on what you consider terror. NT
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. bombs, bullets, blood, body parts...
Like when members of the KKK bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and killed four of the 26 children at the targeted Sunday school class.


That's what I mean by terrorism.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. And what would you consider lawful segregationists? You know - the sort who
enacted and supported laws to keep blacks from voting, or from going to white schools?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
154. Damn skippy.
n/t
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
30. No, sorry you are not
Neither are 95 % of our Democratic politicians.

If you are against gay marriage you are not a "fierce advocate" you are a politician trying not to offend the largest groups.

Also, a fierce advocate would NEVER consider homophobes like McClurkin or Warren.

A fierce advocate would be disgusted by those types.

Obama is VERY wrong on this and it's not to late to let him know how we feel.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
34. Wow, he visited republican land speak. I thought we won?
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
36. FAIL.
Sorry, Obama.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. LOL
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
44. actions always speak louder than words n/t
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JohnnieGordon Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
45. Saying he's opposed to gay marriage because "God has to be in the mix" was certainly "fierce"..
Fiercely offensive that is. I can't imagine a bigger insult to a group of people, than to say God condemns their relationship with their mate. The clear implication is certainly that gays are sinners, which is as far removed from "fiercely pro-gay" as you can get.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
50. Prove it...nt
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 11:44 AM by SidDithers
Edit: kinda sounds like "some of my best friends are teh gay"

Sid
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
53. I don't believe Obama because he said he believes same-sex marriage is wrong. He also said he
will not take rifles, shotguns, and handguns and then says he supports renewing the infamous assault weapons ban that would prohibit the most popular firearms.

Isn't there is a word for people who say one thing and do another?

Presidents can't vote "present" on controversial bills that are divisive and polarizing.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
54. o rly?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
55. Is he trying for a DUzy?
"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Tom Paine
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
62. Nope, never were and probably necer will be -- you don't like the gays
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
171. I actually think he doesn't have anything against them personally.
He just needs to throw them under the bus to shore up the black evangelical vote. See: McClurken, Donnie.

Either way, re: his statement - um, FAIL.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
63. LOL
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
65. Hot air.
He picked an activist hate monger to open the show. In the name of God no less. A man who equates gay people to various criminals. Not just some minister, but one of the very activists who promoted Prop 8 on Nov 4th. As if he is doing a joint victory dance with Warren.
He's a fair weather, semi-advocate, but fierce is a word too far. And this sort of repeated religious based anti-gay symbolism by the choice of specific anti-gay preachers with specific activist history, who have publicaly said things about my family that Obama simply would not countanance toward his own family. That is the definition of an Unchristian act, doing to others what you would not allow to be to to yourself. Hypocrisy on the half shell.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
66. I don't think that word means what you think it means
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
68. From AmericaBlog
Great, then where are the racists, Mr. Obama? We don't see you embracing too many of them in the name of learning to agree to disagree. Or does your desire to create a new "atmosphere," and reach out to our enemies, stop when it's your own people, your own children, you'd be betraying? Funny how you only reach across the aisle when it's someone else's family getting the shaft


http://www.americablog.com/2008/12/obama-we-have-to-be-able-to-agree-to.html
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. If you feel very, very, very brave later, post this as an OP
I will k&r it.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
187. Great post! n/t
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
71. I'll believe it when I see it. Thanks. NT
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
73. more on this:
OBAMA: I am fierce advocate for equality for gay and -- well, let me start by talking about my own views. I think it is no secret that I am a fierce advocate for equality for gay and lesbian Americans. It is something I have been consistent on and something I intend to continue to be consistent on during my presidency.

What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues.

And I would note that a couple of years ago I was invited to Rick Warren's church to speak, despite his awareness that I held views entirely contrary to his when it came to gay and lesbian rights, when it came to issues like abortion.

Nevertheless, I had an opportunity to speak, and that dialog, I think, is a part of what my campaign's been all about, that we're never going to agree on every single issue. What we have to do is create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable, and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans. So Rick Warren has been invited to speak, Dr. Joseph Lowery -- who has deeply contrasting views to Rick Warren about a whole host of issues -- is also speaking.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/obama_on_rick_warren_pick_we_h.php
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
181. Thanks for the full context
I've been napping.

I'm reminded of what the manager of a local video/bookstore said when the fundie folk protested the place because it rented adult films:

"We sell bibles too."

Welcome to Obama's America, where all the family is invited, even the ones that hate each other.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
78. Advocate.
Perhaps that word doesn't mean what you think it means, Pres.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
82. Just meaningless WORDS without any backing. Period.
And regarding GBLT, obama's FEW words mean SHIT...
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
91. Obama has lost the gay community
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 12:45 PM by Jennicut
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
94. TYPO!!! That should read "A Farce Advocate for Gay and Lesbian Americans." NT
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
100. And he'll prove it..
Once he's actually the president, and can make actual decisions.

Because now - he even has a few right-wing republicans who are giving him a second look.

Brilliant politics.. you need your enemies to help you push an agenda.. and sometimes you have to piss off your friends in order to align your enemies.

It amazes me that more here can't really see the forest for one small little tree.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. So brilliant politics counts for you. No matter who gets hurt along the way. Nice.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #103
116. If the politcs
are what are able to push the agenda to help the GLBT community, then yes.

Let's look at this from another angle. For the past 8 years, GWB is still loved & admired by the far Religious right. He's said everything right as far as they're concerned. "Gay people bad". "Abortion is evil". But, guess what?! Abortion is still LEGAL. He's done very little policy wise to actually help the far right... but they like him 'cause he says everything right.

Would you rather Obama walk around wearing a shirt that says "I hear the GLBT community" or would you rather he work politically to actully get legislation passed that will HELP that community.

In 8 years, would you rather have a guy who is on record for saying time & time again that he loves and supports Gay rights, and it's the republicans fault that nothing was passed.. or would you rather have a guy who hasn't said much for or against the issue.. but has worked with the other side enough so that you can actually legally marry your partner?

I'm thinking the 2nd option is actually better.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. And this kind of bullshit politics is called change? Change from what?
Being screwed by Republicans to being screwed by Democrats?

Change, my ass. It's called no principles or, excuse me, the principle of expediency.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. And if he proves it I'll say "Wow! I was wrong".
But there's nothing to date that identifies him as a FIERCE advocate for GLBT people.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #105
117. Here:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. Your post said "He'll prove it". That's future tense.
If you're saying that what he's done already is all he'll do for GLBT people, let me know so we can call it a day.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. Nope..
I can't link to the future.. they haven't invented that yet.

I can link to what he's done in the past.. which is support GLBT. So, it would be easy to assume that he would continue to allow those with voices who oppose him to talk (as he's done with certain singers during the campaign), all the while still pushing a political agenda that is advantageous to the GLBT community.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. So, like I said, if he proves that he WILL be a "fierce advocate" I'll gladly and openly admit
I was wrong.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. And,
if he starts bending Warrens ear for advice, and doesn't continue to push for policy's that will be benifical to the GLBT community, I will do the same (admit I was wrong).
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. Fair enough. Thanks.
:-)
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #138
141. ...
:hi:
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JackDragna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
109. It doesn't matter if Warren is only getting a short time.
I'll wager more people will remember Warren's speech years into Obama's presidency, yet how many people will know much about any of his Cabinet positions? Simply dismissing the impact of Warren's speech by saying "hey, he's not being appointed to a Cabinet position!" misses the power of television. The man is a representative of a political movement that demonizes its enemies, excoriates those who promote tolerance and has an unyielding hatred of other religious faiths besides evangelical Christianity. It is not appropriate, in any manner, to give this man a platform from which to speak to the nation.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
153. So I'm curious
How do you figure that people will remember the two minutes of Warren talking to his invisible friend in the sky, more than they're going to remember the appointments and actions of eight years worth of Obama? I'm sure it'll be "big news" for a week or so, but after that?

:shrug:
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
113. No, you are not. Your actions have shown otherwise. Shame on you.
What example are you setting for your daughters?
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
124. BULL
i do not believe you any more, Mr. Obama. you spit in the face of them what brung you to the dance. you no longer have my trust. you're now just a "hold your nose and vote" Dem. i expected garbage like this from Senator Clinton if she had been the nominee, she'll say or do anything to get ahead. but from you, i expected better.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
127. Bullshit.
Every public move he has made indicates the opposite.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
131. HEIDI: "Then walk it like you talk it." (nt)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
134. Of Course He Is. To Think Otherwise Would Be Monumentally Short Sighted And Flawed.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
140. LOLOLOLOL
that is just pitiful
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
145. I call horse shit.
:grr:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
148. "I am a fierce advocate for America's children." - GW Bush.
Okay, that's a made up quote. But he's probably said similar.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
151. RAWR! Tiger
fierce

:rofl: puleeeze
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LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
152. Actions speak far louder than words.
I'm done thinking he is going to change anything.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
155. dang! there sure is a lot of homophobia
on DU!
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
157. That depends on what the meaning of the word "fierce" is.
:shrug:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. Seems like it was supposed to be "Farce". NT
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
166. "Fierce?!" Now THAT'S a face-plant-worthy adjective.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
167. Then show it man.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 03:48 PM by YOY
Quit trying to make people happy that will never accept you (let alone gays and lesbians) in the first place Barack!

Fuck the fundies. They are the disease...and the cure is knowledge, true justice, and economic stability.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
169. Then, please outline your support for equal marriage rights. Awaiting your reply. Thanks.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
176. Words and actions - did he not appoint openly GLBT people to his transition team as well?
Obama wants to unite the country. That meanings bringing in people that not everybody's going to like and everybody is going to have to make some sort of concession if we really are to be a united country, one America.

At least nobody can accuse him of being a Muslim anymore, now that everyone is thinking he's a fundy Christian and all.

Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't so damn it, shut the frig up already. Never mind he's not stepped into the office yet and everybody is acting prejudicial by treating him like the Antichrist.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. And Bush appointed Powell and Rice. So that means what?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #176
192. No. He didn't.
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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
177. I hope he is, but I'm going to defer to GLBT community on this one, and if they
say he's not, I'm going to accept their analysis.

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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
180. As Molly Ivins was wont to say...
Watch what they do, not what they say.

So far his doing is not matching his saying.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #180
182. do?
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. That ain't doing
That's saying.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
183. a doormat for the religious right
bye-bye bumper sticker
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #183
193. What? Don't homophobic, anti-choice, creationists have a 'place' in the Party?
I mean he does believe in global warming!
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
188. Well, when I was a kid, I was told there was a Santa Claus and a Tooth Fairy.
Edited on Fri Dec-19-08 12:11 PM by terrya
And, well, I found out otherwise.

Just because someone TELLS you something, doesn't make it so.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
189. Then why are you already having to defend your choice of Warren, Mr. President-Elect? n/t
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
191. "As well as those who call them pedophiles and subhuman criminals"
Gotta advocate for both sides!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-19-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
194. Words are cheap, and actions speak much louder than words
Sorry Obama, but you have indeed spoken, and it is an insult to a constituency that has been tried and true friends to both you and the party. With friends like you Obama, who needs enemies?
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