Can we agree on this? We've made progress in expanding GLBT rights

since 1969 and Stonewall. Look, I'm not saying we've made all the progress that needs to be made. GLBT folks are regularly cruelly denied their rights. I am suggesting that things are far better for the GLBT community than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

I wish things happened faster. I'm all for speeding up the process. I don't like the fact that so many are still deprived of their rights, but the fact remains that progress has been made. The fact remains that gaining full equality has never been something that happened quickly. Look how long it took African Americans and women to be seen as equal under the law.

One more time, just to clear: I am not justifying the discrimination against the GLBT community. I'm simply noting that we've made progress. I think we'll continue to make progress. I firmly believe that in the next decade or so, GLBT folks will be able to enjoy the full civil rights they deserve just like anyone else.

In CT, we had a coalition of pro gay marriage, prochoice and pro union folks united against our ballot question in November on whether or not to hold a Constitutional Convention. The whole idea about it was touted by the RW as "expanding democracy" but in reality the agenda was to overturn our wonderful state supreme court decision, impose more restrictions on Roe, and limit union rights. There were people in all 3 affected categories, such as myself, and people in more or less separate ones. The measure was soundly defeated (I admit there was also a bit of yankee stubbornness involved too!).

There needs to be more of a realization that we are all in, essentially, the same boat. Our example shows how true this is. The more people understand that throwing one group's rights under the bus can mean their own rights can be under that bus right along with them, the better off we will all be.

Despite the economy here, it is great to live and breathe the air in a state that affirms equal rights so strongly.

While two states (excluding California for now) have recognized that the clear decision in Loving v Virginia and their own state constitutions require that all people be treated equally under the law, the last decade has mostly seen success after success for legislative and referendum initiatives that codify discrimination. The decriminalization of homosexual behavior that followed from the cultural revolution of the 60's and 70's has been for the most part accepted, but the counter-revolution of the 80's, 90's and '00's, the restoration of rightwing cultural economic and foreign policy supremacy has resulted in the establishment of legalized discrimination against homosexuals. The culture war, which the right wages consciously and with determination and strategy, and that we on the left are only dimly aware exists, is a battle that for the most part we are losing. We are ceding ground on gay rights, on abortion rights, on the idiotic war on drugs, and on creeping theocracy. Our victories are few, our defeats many. You may see linear progress, I see a society on the edge of the nightmare described in The Handmaid's Tale, one chaotic event away from the abyss.

The again I am a bit of an eyore.

I mean how close to the abyss do you think we are?

Bryant

Economic collapse is always an excellent breeding ground for extremists remedies. This is yet another reason why I am aghast at bringing dominionists like Warren 'into the tent'.

And I'm not qualified to be in the debate, any more than I would be qualified to talk about how much better blacks have it today than 50 years ago. I don't experience receiving the bigotry, so I don't know what it's like. All I do know is that we aren't there yet, and we should be. you're right that we can't speed up the process though, because all that happens when situations get forced is that resistance becomes entrenched.

human rights and DOMA is still in tact leads me to an entirely different conclusion than you.

That's the point that we've been trying to make. If you "support" our rights, only you think they're not so important and you also think now's not the time, and you also think we need to let bigots gloat in our faces, then you don't really support us.

I'm guessing it's that group of "we" that will really enjoy this post.

Talking with them is utterly reasonable. Providing them with exposure and influence they neither need nor deserve seems just as totally unreasonable. Warren represents the established, conservative, hateful view of gays. Talk with him? Sure. Try to change his mind or blunt his opposition? Yes! But let's save honors and promotion for those who represent the just side of the issue, the side which is still undermined by ignorance, derision and hatred despite all the progress that has taken place. For a true dialogue or airing of differences, let's promote and lend prominence to the view that needs both, rather than the unjust view that needs neither.

Why not focus on why things don't happen quickly? Could it be that far too many people just don't get it?

And what if your firm belief turns out to be wrong? What would you have them/us do then? Wait another decade? Five? Why not just an even century?