Kucinich criticizes Israel; wants U.N. probe - The Hill

Thanks Dennis.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/kucinich-criticizes-israel-wants-u.n.-probe-2008-12-29.html

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) is calling for a United Nations investigation into Israel’s attacks on Gaza, criticizing Israel for a disproportionate response to Hamas rocket attacks.

The criticism stands in stark contrast to the statements of other Democrats, who have offered near-unanimous support for Israel amid the latest violence in the Middle East.

Kucinich likened the Israeli attacks on Gaza to its war with Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006. In both cases, he said, civilian populations were attacked and “countless innocents” were killed or injured.

“All this was, and is, disproportionate, indiscriminate mass violence in violation of international law,” Kucinich said in a statement. “Israel is not exempt from international law and must be held accountable.”

Kucinich said the perpetrators of attacks against Israel should be brought to justice, but that Israel “cannot create a war against an entire people in order to attempt to bring to justice the few who are responsible.”

K & R

All in all he seems like a honourable man who practices what he preaches, but I am really doubt on if the "Spotlight" he seems to gather does the democratic party any good.

Nor should it be the job of any of those supposedly representing the best interests of the country.

... the Democratic Party makes him look bad more often rather than vice versa. :shrug:

is spot on about the necessity of a Dept. of Peace. He's a man of courage who knows this country is going waaaaayyyy in the wrong direction and he's known it for years.

He would have made a good president, working towards world peace. Most dems don't get that!

SOB's they are.

is spot on about the necessity of a Dept. of Peace. He's a man of courage who knows this country is going waaaaayyyy in the wrong direction and he's known it for years.

He would have made a good president, working towards world peace. Most dems don't get that!

:crazy: Dennis Kucinich is a true statesman.

Because he isn't afraid or paid not to tell the truth

What he champions are things that would do the nation, the planet, and the people, good.

If benefitting the nation, the planet, and the people aren't good for the party,

WHAT does that say about the party?

but, he keeps fighting.

The reason our party doesn't give him the respect he deserves is because he represents actual, real, concrete, profound change.

It's better to use "change" as a propaganda slogan to inspire votes than it is to actually intend to create fundamental, people-friendly change, if the goal is to maintain the status quo.

If it weren't for courageous people like Dennis I couldn't be involved in politics at all. It wouldn't be worth the trouble to me.

Now I remember - DLC! :puke:

...when Dennis Kucinich speaks.
Dennis reminds them of what a Democrat used to be.

doing what he should be doing. His allegiance is not to his party... It is to the people and to the Constitution.

If I believed in God, I would ask for him to be blessed. :)

Remember Jimmy Carter

As he has been for years now. But he gets no respect from either within or outside the party. After all, you can't allow somebody to present the unvarnished truth to the American people, it makes it so much more difficult to keep the two party/same corporate master system of government going.

Thanks for the thread, Tierra_y_Libertad.

(the sternly worded letter)

:thumbsup:

to stand up. :applause:

Dennis is the only one with the courage to speak the truth here.

As long as we keep supporting the illegal regime occupying Palestine there will never be any peace.

good for DK.

Israel is a first world state, in any case. Foreign aid is supposed to be for the third world (the vast majority goes to Israel).

it has nothing to do with proportion and everything with eliminating a persistent threat. Asking Israel to just deal with suicide bombers and rocket attacks is no less asinine than telling a rape victim to sit back and enjoy it and compared to our reaction to acts of terror, I don't see how we'd have the nerve to tell anyone a damned thing about measured responses.
It also has to be remembered that Israel is a democracy and their citizens aren't going to suck it forever or care overly about those that endanger them and deny their right to exist.
Then things are made worse by Hamas hiding out among civilians to avoid retribution or as a tool if there is retribution, the woe is me/look at this dirty bastards killing women and children tool. I'm surprised Israel shows the level of restraint it does. The American people would have LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago called for a tactical nuclear strike or relentless bombings of such enemies. The situation is untenable and I would strongly consider emptying disputed territories and let the Arabs deal with the refugee situation of their brothers and sisters.

Nobody sits for bombs being lobbed at them and nobody will patiently work on peaceful solutions to suicide bombers and I don't have the gall to demand it of anyone else either.

or anyone else that gets in the way of 'getting' the rapist

Show me where it's written that Israel's only two options are mass bombings vs. laying there and taking it with a smile.

Then things are made worse by Hamas hiding out among civilians to avoid retribution or as a tool if there is retribution

Just like how Israel has a habit of building their armories and barracks in the middle of civilian neighborhoods?

It's not a question of either side "hiding behind civilians" - it's because both are tiny little fucking places in what may very well be the longest continuously-inhabited place on the fucking planet. Even Japan beats Israel-Palestine when it comes to elbow room. They're both packed like sardines and surrounded by innocents no matter what. I guess both sides could duke it out in the Negev desert, but since neither side wants the Negev, it'd be a little pojntless - and they might hurt something important like an endangered succulent or whatnot.

Who is the rape victim in this comparison you are making?

Do you really think that Palestine is using force to oppress the Israeli people?

A much better analogy would be to compare the Palestinians to the rape victim, and to argue that they should just lie back and take it or suffer more violent force being used against them.

The Palestinian people ARE being oppressed, aren't they? Can you at least agree about this fact? They are ones who are living under blockade. Right? Israel is the rapist here, right? They are the ones that are unilaterally controlling the relationship. Right? The Palestinian people are the ones who live their lives powerless against the Israelis. Right?

Don't you have it exactly backwards?

It was always "self-defense", with finger pointing at abominable crimes of the "terrorist" ANC providing a twisted form of justification for every abomination.

What "solved" or turned the page on the major problem in South Africa was dissolution of the Apartheid system and rewriting the constitution, eliminating racist elements. Making the country a true democracy, rather than a racist "democracy" in name only. There'll be no solution for Israel until it does the same. Unfortunately, racism is the elephant in the room that it's forbidden to talk about. Parallel to this, and what will naturally follow from this, is that Israel has to acknowledge the injustice of the Nakba, has to acknowledge the Palestinian refugee's right to return. It's unconscionable that a Jew living half the world away should be granted a right to Palestinian land, based purely on racial factors, when the Palestinian refugees who for generations lived on that land are denied all rights, and are denied even the semblance of justice.

Kucinch wrong again...

Hamas broke the peace for political reasons...

Hamas is using its own people for cannon fodder...

Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians...

If I am not mistaken it was Israel who targeted a Hamas tunnel first.

And if I am correct, elections in Israel are imminent.

Hamas announced they were no longer going to abide by the cease fire that had been in place for 6 months, and began launching rockets into Israeli neighborhoods...

According to what I have read the first tunnels were hit today...of course those tunnels are used to smuggle weapons in for the purpose of killing Israelis

ISRAEL violated the truce.

And that's a fact.

Need help googling that fact?

Hamas had been violating the truce almost since its commencement, moving across the border committing acts of violence. The tunnel that is being talked about was destroyed in November a full month and a half before the end of the truce. ANd there was clear evidence this was being used to smuggle weapions into Gaza. Hamas did not even refer to this in their formal announcement that they would again be terrorizing Israeli citizens

But facts are so liberally biased, aren't they.

As much as you wish I were...

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

As I see it:

Kucinich is usually correct and this really isn't an exception.

Whatever tiny shreds of peace exist in the region exist, the peace is always broken for political reasons by both sides.

You obviously have no idea what the term 'cannon fodder' means.

I fail to see a moral difference between bombing a single club and killing civilians or bombing an entire city and claiming to "accidentally" kill civilians. It is only a matter of quantity.

Not that I think this will be on a list of things to do by the new administration.

It's still the right thing to do.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Bring on the department of Peace.

I can't name anyone in Congress on the correct side of more issues than Dennis.

I'm sure it will pass by an overwhelming margin. :rofl:

finds some principles and some integrity.

I won't hold my breath.

They sanction Israeli terrorism.

and like flies on shit, here come the apologists to regurgitate their usual propaganda.

From The Times
July 28, 2006
Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem


WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.

“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”


Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.

“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”

Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.

Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece

A reiterative string of talking points and projection that always culminates in personal attacks and slurs.

Some are easy to spot,
and some have been embedded for years.

eom

We know the US has destroyed its reputation in the world with illegal wars and

TORTURE -- but so has Israel and it is only due to right-wing US administrations

winking at Israel's warmongering -- and supplying defense weapons to them and the

money for them that Israel can keep on with this illegal war on Palestine.

Seriously, this is a great and honorable man.
No wonder he has such a smokin' hot wife.

And I can really see the reason in both of them. Yes, the Palestinians should drop Hamas if at all possible - but while this blockade is maintained it makes sense to rely on a more militant form of government. Not that Hamas would be able to really stop a full force ground invasion in any event.

Of course there have been far more civilian casualties in Gaza. Israel has superior firepower and technology. It stands to reason that if this were reversed, however, Hamas would be far less merciful. No, that doesn't justify the overwhelming civilian casualties in Gaza.

It's hard for me to really decide where I stand on this issue. Frankly I don't particularly like or care for the politics of either. I'd like to see a lasting peace, but it's unlikely that we ever will. These are two opposing forces that (generally speaking) hate each other so much that open conflict seems the only possible solution.

They've been fighting for ages, and will most likely still be fighting for many years to come. Half-hearted peace efforts and throwing money at the problem isn't going to solve it.

In any event, I like Kucinich a lot and he was my first choice too. It's a shame there aren't more like him in positions of authority. I think a UN probe is a good idea.

~PEACE~

I honestly do not get how many people here can parrot the Israeli propaganda that centers around one phrase: That Palestinians "Intentionally target civilians".

People spew that right and left, honestly believing that INTENT matters to the DEAD. Americans say that about the hundreds of thousands of INNOCENTS that they have killed in Iraq. They use it to excuse the MASSIVE amounts of innocents killed by Israel, as if they do not count because they were not targets - just casualties.

I think that many Americans have simply lost the ability to put themselves in the shoes of others. They honestly expect people to "understand" if their families are killed, "accidentally", by a sworn enemy of their people. Wake the fuck up people. Try to turn it around for just a second: Perhaps you are apolitical, or even voted against Hamas, you are just a family person trying to eek out an existence in a tough situation. You are sitting down to dinner with your family, the family that you live for and struggle for every day. There is a sudden flash of light and a loud explosion, and when the dust clears you see your family before you - all dead, limbs ripped from their bodies, tiny faces, once smiling now ripped off. Put yourself in that situation for a second, without any bias of your understanding for accidents and the "unfortunate" situation of "collateral damage". You look around and see the remnants of an Israeli missile in what was once your home. Is any one of you honestly going to tell me that as you hold the corpse of your dead child in your arms you would think that it was acceptable because he was not TARGETED? Would the intent of those that murdered your child have anything to do with your feelings at that point?

Strangely, we are inundated with stories from the Israeli side. Barack Obama himself the other day talked about how he would do anything to protect his little girls from Palestinian rockets if they lived in Israel. Unfortunately, he failed to present the exact same argument from the Palestinian side? What is the difference? Intent. That is the big excuse. "Palestinians" (well, just a few, but we also find it so easy to paint with a broad brush these days...) target civilians, Israelis just fire missiles into crowded areas where they know many innocents will die - but as those innocents are not the "targets" of the attack, they think that is OK. Tell that to yourself as you cradle your baby's lifeless body. I am sure it will make you feel better.

If this happened to me, I would be overwhelmed. I think I would lose it. I would want PAYBACK. I am not saying the killing people as payback would be right, but it would be natural and understandable to want that. And America in general, and even President-elect Obama, either do not see this or are too afraid to say it. Yet the horror stories from Israel continue, with Palestininans being simply lumped together as terrorists based on the actions of a few of their number.

President Bush has made huge fundamental errors in his judgment of how to decrease terrorism. He has undoubtedly created more future terrorists than we can imagine, because, much as America did after September 11th, when you kill a bunch of innocent people, then the survivors are going to want payback.

Intent does not matter. If you kill someone, especially innocent children, it does not fucking matter if you meant to or not. You are still a baby killer. And if you actually think that people will give a fuck about whether or not you "meant to", then you are seriously delusional.

Israel is giving us an excellent lesson on how to CREATE terrorists, much as Bush has done for the past few years. The Israeli GOVERNMENT kills far more innocent Palestinians than Palestinian INDIVIDUALS kill Israelis. That is simple fact. A death is a death, even if it was an "accident". It effects lives, causes horrible sorrow and often the desire for revenge.

If you honestly think that you would consider "intent" as you held your child's dismembered body, then I would say that you are brainwashed by propaganda. But I genuinely hope that you will never have to find out how you would really react.

Thank you, Dennis.


What is Israel's idea of a truce? It is very simple:
Palestinians have the right to remain silent while
Israel starves them, kills them and continues to
violently colonize their land.

He is what the Democratic Party COULD BE, but refuses to be.

For Mr Kucinich.One of the very few politicians that I trust and respect.:thumbsup:

Even if it is too late in theory to do so.

Troublemakers, questioners, refuseniks, shouters, and non-conformists, are absolute necessities in a democracy. Or, any other kind of government for that matter.

By mass hypnosis, lack of true educational equality, and willingness by Americans to live in a fantasy that calls Debt Slavery "Freedom".

He was not kidding when he said "Wake Up America"

As I said before, in another topic that had a whole sub-thread deleted for some reason, that Israel is a proxy for a U.S. Presence in the Middle East designed as a means to project U.S. Force into the area at a moments notice. The U.S. will use Israel as an excuse to enter a full blown war, regardless of fault or cause. Israel knows this, and they just are buying insurance because they know their role is basically untenable without the Billions of dollars in free money they get every year from the U.S. Government, as well as preferential treatment for American Corporations doing business there.

This has been happening since the 6 days war, and amazingly Israel is absolved for every catastrophe, such as the U.S.S. Liberty attack.

It's intersting to see how they are spinning the latest attack on the supply boat, Dignity, that just happened to be carrying CNN reporters and ex Rep McKinny. They could not just blow it out of international waters, so they rammed the crap out of it instead and now try to call it an accident.

Watch this story closely, I bet it will morph into accidental collision, and the witnesses will retire someplace with a lot of money to keep quiet.

This cold war, stratego board of world control needs a rethink, and Dennis Kucinich has my admiration for bringing up the folly of this U.S./Israel relationship at any cost up for review.

one our very best

Talk about your bottom story of the day. When does Dennis ever do anything BUT criticize Israel? He's surely never praised them.