Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

'Stop criticizing Obama. You'll ruin everything!'

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:36 PM
Original message
'Stop criticizing Obama. You'll ruin everything!'

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0812/S00466.htm

Tuesday, 30 December 2008, 11:06 am
Column: Michael Collins

'Stop criticizing Obama. You'll ruin everything!'

The Absolute Right of Citizens to Speak Freely



Michael Collins


A few defenders of President elect Barack Obama are attacking one of his most enlightened statements of the campaign -- the request for open dialog and criticism from his supporters. This occurred on his blog after he voted to support FISA legislation in the summer of 2008.

"I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too." Barack Obama, July 3, 2008

Responding to criticism of cabinet choices and, most recently, the selection of bigoted preacher Rev. Rick Warren to open the inauguration ceremonies, some Obama supporters are actually telling other supporters to "stop criticizing Obama!"

A Dec. 24 CNN poll showed that 82% of the public approves of the Obama transition efforts, while just 15% find them lacking.

If the well placed supporters can't tolerate negative feedback at 82% approval, what will happen when there's sizable public opposition for a broad based initiative? Sending twenty thousand U.S. troops to Afghanistan comes to mind. Snip
These arguments don't square with the history of free speech and questioning authority in the United States. Free speech is an essential element of greater economic and social justice, i.e., real change. SNIP

Debs and others in the Socialist Party were prominent in opposing the war. He spoke on the war in Canton, Ohio on June 16, 1918. Referencing the threats to imprison him and other war critics, he said: "I would rather a thousand times be a free soul in jail than to be a sycophant and coward in the streets." Debs described World War I as a capitalist conflict that had nothing to do with the people. Then he made this statement about speaking out when few support your position:

"It is the few who have had the courage to take their places at the front; who have been true enough to themselves to speak the truth that was in them; who have dared oppose the established order of things; who have espoused the cause of the suffering, struggling poor; who have upheld without regard to personal consequences the cause of freedom and righteousness. It is they, the heroic, self-sacrificing few who have made the history of the race and who have paved the way from barbarism to civilization. The many prefer to remain upon the popular side." Debs, June 16, 1918

Debs was arrested for sedition and convicted under the Espionage Act for anti-war statements during the Canton, Ohio speech. He went to prison in 1919. While incarcerated, ran for president in 1920 receiving nearly one million votes. SNIP

Who are these insiders who tell us what we can and cannot say?

"In the Republican and Democratic parties you of the common herd are not expected to think. That is not only unnecessary but might lead you astray. That is what the "intellectual" leaders are for. They do the thinking and you do the voting. They ride in carriages at the front where the band plays and you tramp in the mud, bringing up the rear with great enthusiasm." Debs, June 16, 1918

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0812/S00466.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Red Herring alert.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Pickled herring taste great. What do red herring taste like?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Burnt Xanadu. That's what they taste like, y'all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
76. Egalitarian, yet succulent.
n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillieW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
85. Pickled herring in sour cream Yum
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Enthusiastic k&r. Silence is the death of freedom.
I will be free.

sw
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sure, the title is a bit of hyperbole but sadly it's not that far off.
Constructive criticism is what separates us from the giant mass of dopes that supported Bush year after year after year (well, that and other stuff, but you get the idea).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, Constructive criticism is good
What we are seeing though is something a bit different, people are writing Obama off because he hasn't "stopped the Israel/Palestine conflict, he hasn't ended DADT, he hasn't done enough for the economy....and it goes on and on.....

He isn't President yet, there are 22 days and counting the last time I checked.

Let's constructively criticize him on Jan 21st when he actually has the power to do something right or wrong.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. The key word is "Constructive"..
unlike the trash and bash that is so prevalent. There's not much thought involved in most of the 'dissent', and it is very unproductive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I half buy it and I half don't.
I couldn't disagree more that people should wait until January 21st because he's *had* the power to pick cabinet members (I have no desire to re-hash old debates about the relevance of this, I'll just say that I think it's undeniably relevant but to what extent is debatable).

Personally I've bothered to stay out of the "I reject and denounce Obama" AND the "don't you dare criticize Obama about ANYTHING" threads because they always end up in pointless name calling and nonsense. Besides, I'm in between. I think it's way too soon to "give up" on him but I also find the Republican-esque backlash against criticism to be incredibly obnoxious, especially in light of what we saw from the right for the last 8 years.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. And here's a chance to embrace his views on free speech

The only thing in that article that is critical, indirectly, is the line about cabinet choices, "When even more of those responsible for past failures are placed in positions of authority?" The very first quotation is on free speech by Obama. My criticism is directed at the campaign official and others who say pipe down and try and dictate rhetorical tone. They should say this if they choose, by all means, and they should also be willing to take responses criticizing their restrictive view of free speech in our tradition. There has been no negative impact of people objecting to Warren or the cabinet choices as indicated by the CNN poll, none

I've noticed that Obama has changed in response to public opinion, the Iraq withdrawal commitment and the more aggressive health care plan come to mind. In addition to the right to speak out, the end results can be very positive as indicated by the two examples above.

We'll see after the 20th. It's a daunting position to be in, president, at a time when people don't have much patience given the stakes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. Well said. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. no they aren't
I do not think anyone here has said they are "writing Obama off because he hasn't 'stopped the Israel/Palestine conflict, he hasn't ended DADT, he hasn't done enough for the economy' or anything even remotely close to that.

Usually "constructive" criticism merely means "criticism I agree with." Who is to determine what is and what is not "constructive?"

Telling people they should only speak out at certain times or in certain ways is an attempt at discouraging freedom of speech.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
81. Precisely. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
102. but he has made a decision that is offensive to many Americans
I'm sorry, but if LBJ had gotten an inaugural speaker who was against equal rights for blacks, we would probably still be rioting.

So it IS okay to criticize what he HAS had accountability for and failed at already.

I want him to do better, but Warren (and Obama's stubborn myopic stance on Warren) is not a good omen for some of us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
106. Of course, it must be admitted that
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 10:57 AM by anotheryellowdog
he did and still does have the power to choose someone other than a bigot like Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. I would say he's open for lots of constructive criticism on that right now. As to issues over which he currently has little or no control, I would agree with you that we should wait until Jan 21st.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
75. Amen to that. We should follow no one blindly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #75
88. He wants to reach across the isle to people singing "Barack the Magic Negro"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. What do these destroyers of government have to do..piss on him too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Time for partisanship till we rid the nation of this political scum like RNC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Leaders of both parties belong to the Money Party and legislate for each other not us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Reid and Pelosi have stopped listening to the people or reading the polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Obama virtually stands alone in wanting to change Washington as usual.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. Trust noone completely who has the power to do you great harm without scrutiny
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think it's more along the lines of..
"Stop criticizing Obama. You look like an ignorant ass."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R for the right to speak one's mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. "If the well placed supporters can't tolerate negative feedback at 82% approval"
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 09:51 PM by Truth Hurts A Lot
If the well placed critics can't tolerate Obama BEFORE he takes office, then how will they manage when he actually does take office? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
77. Trust us, we'll manage. We've managed through worse.
And it's the ones who speak out that you're going to need. We had eight years in the Nineties where NOBODY spoke out, and those were eight wasted years. The country didn't fall apart, but we lost the chance to shape the future for years afterwards.

Silence is never a positive thing in Democratic administrations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. that's not what people are saying. they are saying stop attacking each other
stop calling each other bigots.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. What I don't get
Is all these many years on DU, and I thought I knew many of the people here. I mean the ones that I knew from the last election-never mind this one. It stuns me that in any critical Obama thread-they attack THE POSTER-not the contents of the thread. Posters that have been here for YEARS-and that's the best they have-group mind think-don't attack our president-I'm going to attack you? Isn't that the classic Republican m.o.?

And it makes even less sense because if you are righteous with all this faith in Obama-then you can calmly attack their ideas and tell them why they are wrong. Instead it's all insults. If Obama is not really moving farther to the right-then tell me. BUT THEY CAN'T. It's all "he isn't even president yet." He already picked his cabinet. That's the point. If those people are approved they will affect our lives for years to come. He choose them. HE ALREADY made PRESIDENTIAL decisions.

And the next big response is, "I trust Obama." That's nice, but why? Based on what? OH YES, he won. But what did he do while in the Senate? What about that FISA thing? What about picking Hillary Clinton who was supposed to be the basic contrary to his foreign policy. But apparently that was all political theater. That's correct, some of us didn't like Hillary because of HER positions on important things like war, but never mind. It was all just about personalities and we "liked" more.

Did he back out on tax cuts? Well not really. But did he do anything visionary?

Yes, his visionary thing was to pick Rick Warren. A big blip but soon that will be over.

And I know with RAHM whispering in his ear, middle east peace is a fucking lost dream.

Anyway-long time Du'ers I hardly knew ye. It's not a personality cult-if all these years on DU didn't teach you to be skeptical of these weasels (that's politicians in case you haven't been paying attention) -then I haven't been on the same DU as you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Thanks!
Clearly there's a contradiction between Obama's statement on feedback and the campaign managers
instructions to the troops. I'll take the latter message and we'll see what happens. I just read
somewhere (and I can't remember where, but I'll try) that the Warren thing was really pushed by his
campaign managers, like do it, it's going to be good for you. I don't think that Obama knew or had
the time to know the deal on Warren, given everything else. So this 'hush, hush' talk may be their
compensation for having been taken to the wood shed. One can always hope;)

It's our lives and well being on the line. If it were another time, we could be like the
"Overmountain" people and just start our own semi-autonomous government in the woods. That's quite
a story. They captured or killed the entire British attack force, which was not typical of our
efforts at that time. Just a bunch of citizens who happened to be fighting for their lives.

I agree with your points on the assumption of power. If Obama can pull off what he's indicated
with these players, terrific. The critiques and questions are not having any impact on public
support, none. At the start of Dec he had 79% approval of the transition and then 82% by Dec. 24,
the date of the release. On a pragmatic basis there's no harm.

As for the insults, nothings risen above DEFCON 2. It shouldn't. There's only one single sentence
that could be taken as critical (re the cabinet) and an opening that lauds Obama's statement on
about feedback. He knows, he's done it, as he pointed out.

Happy New Year :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. A-FRICKIN-MEN! For the first time in years I feel no real debate is allowed to occur
and Autorank thank you for the thread. I've been stating as much many times over the past month.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. very well said. and i agree. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
61. I See The Opposite
I see many posters grandstanding as the grand sages who have sharpened their cynicism to a fine point and then call others members of a cult of personality.

Just like you did.
GAC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. yeah, see that bit about people attacking the poster instead of the content?

That's what you just did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #65
101. I Did No Such Thing
My issue is with the message. My issue is with the tone of the message.

You get chippy and you didn't even get the point of the post.

Nice.
GAC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. k and r for freedom to disagree and free speech nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. there's a bunch of those fucking idiots on DU
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 10:10 PM by Skittles
WAIT UNTIL JAN 20!!!!!!!!!!!! :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Will you please explain your in all caps wait until Jan 20 remark for me, because,
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 10:47 PM by lonestarnot
I may or may not be what you consider to be a fucking idiot, and I'd like to know whether I am or whether I am not. :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. anyone who thinks there's a magic date to express freedom of speech
any fucking time
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
57. I guess I'm ok then.
:D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
60. "Help, I'm being repressed."
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 07:11 AM by AtomicKitten
Looks like you are expressing freedom of speech just fine and without impediment in that hostile, judgmental way you have about you in dealing with differences of opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
107. Repressed? How about just fucking disrespected?
We voted for Obama. Obama plays the jackass card and pisses in our beer. What's to debate?

Regarding Warren the performance is spectacular jack-assery, by both Obama and the shut up and bend over crowd here.

And speaking of hostile judgemental, YOU'RE one to talk. And I say that with humor, not spite. :P

We all have our days, but I think you and I are neck and neck most days in that foot race. ;)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Nobody is repressing anyone's freedom of speech. 'kay?
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 04:33 PM by AtomicKitten
That's the topic here, the point I made clearly, but I always enjoy the circuitous and often self-serving swerve in the conversation for the sheer purpose of making things personal and wielding a cudgel. :eyes:

On edit: You can refer to my original post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4734532&mesg_id=4735115 for my point of view which bears zero resemblance to the way you've painted it.

Obama is gracious to a fault, or so it would seem. His inclusiveness policy has rubbed many DU'ers the wrong way from time to time, including me, but the reactionary rending of garments makes way to a view of the bigger picture.

Rather than dumping rage and icky feelings randomly on others which is as pointless as it is unfair, you have and have always had the option of being proactive and sending your comments here ------> www.change.gov.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. you are funny
I miss being told what I meant by someone who could as easily ask me.

For the record I was talking about Warren - but you never fail to misconstrue. If consistency is a virtue you are a holy woman.

Now grow your god damn humor back wench before I send for a wheelchair.

:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. keep on swervin'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
103. yeah a bunch of fucking shut up and get in line idiots too.
When Obama gets a speaker who is against interracial marriage to flap his lips at the prez inauguration, get back to me with a bag for my vomit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. that hyperbole has as much validity as the War on Christmas
Unfortunately I need to clarify this for you: A difference of opinion does not count. Please post a link of anyone here at DU telling anyone else to shut up and get in line.

I'll be sure to check back for it. Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. K & R.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oldenuff Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. Change we want,or something else?

I believe that people are so hungry for change (after 8 years of attacks and outright theft of our country by those sworn to protect it)that they somehow forget that the vehicle we can use to attain that change has not yet arrived...at least until Inauguration Day.

Still,it is easy to say WTF,when comments/statements are made that would indicate that perhaps it's only change that the incoming administration supports that will carry any weight.Consider that the far and away-Numero Uno topic in the Criminal Justice section of Change,org,has to do with Cannabis Legalization.When the President Elect was asked the question,do you support Legalization of Marijuana,the answer was "President Elect Obama does not support Cannabis Legalization.


So,does the statement,"I will open the doors of Government and ask you to be involved in your own Democracy again",have any weight,or is it only rhetoric?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. We'll walk right through the doors
And make our case known. Our country has a vocal tradition, one that was really brutal as the
"founders" practiced politics. Jefferson spoke out harshly on John Adams' Sedition Act and,
covertly, wrote a resolution which Kentucky published that advocated states selectively
negating laws that violated basic rights (in this case free speech!). And that's before we get
to the personal accusations that flew around at that time. This was the peaceful period before
we had political parties.

You are absolutely right. People are impatient and they are starting to express a sense of ownership
of the government, which is a natural reaction at times like this and after criminal rule by a bunch
of thugs. Speaking up, debate, etc. is a sign of positive movement, period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
95. "Now hear this. All dissenters please enter the dissent cages around the block"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. "There you may hold up your dissent signs and continue your freedom of speech"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Didn't you watch the goings on outside the conventions?Already a police state so behave.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Ola!
This goes right under the cyber tree. You didn't make it for me but I'll take it as my best
present;) Got a pretty nice sweater but it doesn't make any profound points. This does!

To your health :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Here's one for your cyber-tree:
:D :hi:



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. OMG!!! That's The Picture of Dorian
Warren (you do know that his first name is Dorian and not Rick!;) Great stuff. Screw the sweater,
I'm going for the cyber tree!

I'm not an artist but I can exchange gifts just this one time with a picture I took at the Conyers
hearing on the Kucinich impeachment resolution. I was the last civilian in, literally. Just went
up there and took it. It's Bruce Fein, a conservative legal scholar who has been calling
Bush a tyrannical ruler for years (and wants him impeached) and Vince Bugliosi, the LA prosecutor
who put Manson away, writes true crime books, one of which is http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0808/S00099.htm">The Prosecution of George W. Bush
for Murder.> Those are two front line patriots.


Bruce Fein (Left) & Vince Busliosi (Right)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I'm a big fan of those two.
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:39 PM by Swamp Rat
Who's the guy on the upper right looking at the camera? :D



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. As they say
82% support and criticism is verboten.

I wanted to be wrong about this last election being a popularity contest, but I guess I need to mark that down in my book as well.

Doomsayer: 531
Naysayers: 2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Are they not all popularity contests?
Is this your first election?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. 4th
And I admit to being a cynic, but this was the most blatant political theater I've seen so far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
82. You figure it beats out Ronald Reagan?
That's some achievement.
Anyway, the winning pols always give the people what they want. Yup, including Palin, including Bush, twice. Never underestimate the USA.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. Stifling dissent by stifling criticism of said dissent
Someone is getting stifled thats for sure.

This is crazy hyperbole. No one is stopping anyone from speaking their mind. Unless the mods have been locking posts that meet DU rules, this type of post is unnecessary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Where have you been lately?
While Skinner prefers not to shut down discourse, there has been a big movement to shut up any constructive criticism. The Warren thing was just one example.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. No one can shut you up by disagreeing with you
The "Warren affair" has been flame material by both those who support Obama and those who are reaching out to bash his head in. DU mods, much to many peoples chagrin, have largely let the Warren threads dominate the GD-P forum.

Maybe I've missed it, but I havent seen anyone try and shut down constructive criticsm. Some have been mocked for posting dumb shit like "obama has failed", or talking about his smoking, or talking about his "vacation home" and other assorted BS.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Obviously you haven't been here, or you are trolling
Either way, the attempts to shut down conversation do work and have been working. This was a needed counterpoint.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I've been here way longer than you buddy
keep letting others shut down your ability to post. You sound like a huge whiner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
83. Say evil, do evil, speak evil
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 10:47 PM by ooglymoogly
And by the bye O's IQ is 125 to 130; That is by a considerable margin somewhat less than many on this board including myself. Just sayin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #83
87. That's an absurd number, and completely made up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #87
108. Perhaps you should do a little research before the J'accuse. nt nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. This is crazy hyperbole isn't it?
Amazing how whiny some people get when they encounter disagreement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. Criticism is good.
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:59 PM by AtomicKitten
Some, however, at DU have already declared a failed presidency in the most inappropriately reactive angry terms. Based on the fact that he hasn't been sworn in yet, I'm not inclined to join in and get my angry on. But that's me. Everybody else is entitled to do their own thing.

My fangirl status ends 1-21-09. I will judge Obama on his actual policies that actually affect lives when he is actually president. That seems reasonable to me.

Happy New Year, Mike.

On edit: www.change.gov -------> for best results, use it often, rinse and repeat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
56. Jan. 21, 2009 - The usurpers retreat from the crime scene
What a great day. I'm ready for good things and for the free flow of ideas.

There is so much happening in science, technology, and within communities. It's up to the
government to catch up with the people. At least, now there's a chance for that. For sure,
the foolishness of Bush and Congress over the past eight years is over. What a dreadful
combination that is.

Thanks for the reminder on the link!

Happy New Year!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. k&r n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
39. Heh
Y'know, you are one of the few, auto, who has been on more ignore lists than I.

About this criticism stuff.... think back to the days when we were told that we should 'get over it'.
Remember? That's back when the elections were being stolen.
Has that ended? Or did Obama steal this one?

Anyway, we were told to get over it so many times, by everyone from the ankle-biters to the
wanna-be monarchs. And did we? Did we get over it?

So, on a comparative scale, is the selection of, say, Warren, as large as stolen elections?
Is the choice of Clinton as SoS as large? Or any of the cabinet?

Time and again we are told how to think, and what to say. Same as it ever was.
Only now, we are in the front seat. Our hands not on the wheel, but close.
Closer than we've ever (since DU) been.

We have now, a certain responsibility. A responsibility to make sure our driver doesn't take us over the cliff, but also a responsibility to have some faith that our driver knows what the fuck he's doing.

It will be an interesting four + years, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Me?
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:55 PM by autorank
On ignore lists. Geez, I'll have taken the prize when I'm on yours, just for a moment though;)

We got a count that reflected the will of the people this time (though it looks like Obama got
a lot more votes than the "rulers" allowed). That's something. They couldn't pull their
election day magic. It was dissent even on the left to say that 2000 and 2004 were stolen. But
the people agreed with us and that chilled the vote villains.

There was little dissent in this post on Obama (a little heavy handed on the cabinet choices) and
a lot of praise for his handling of a major dissent on his FISA vote - right own web site. Nobody
got banished or sent to the corner.

My hot buttons are energy policy (alternatives to the max), war, and health care. But the
Constitution underlies all of that, those rights inherent, not granted, that we all rely on.

It will be a great four years because, as occurred to me election night when Virginia went over to
Democrat-Obama at 9:36 or so (but who was counting), we get to behave like a free people with the
drag of thugs listening to our phone calls or locking us up for no reason.

There's always a good deal to be had in the free market of ideas where the citizen is in
charge without mediation by the grandees.

Our situation is much simpler than in the past.


The British threatened to kill everyone in the "Overmountain" settlement
unless they took a loyalty oath. In 1780, they chose to fight. They also chose
their own officers. The entire British force of 1200 or so was either captured or
killed in battle. The Battle of King's mountain caused Cornwallis to head north
... to Yorktown. Some dissent!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. AW...
Who would want to ignore you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
43. Brave New World
Dems have suffered in the desert of no power/no access for so long that prominence is making them skittish. The problem is: that road leads to perdition otherwise known as RepubliConism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. The last truly free market ... the marketplace of ideas ...

where the only 'royalty' are citizens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. The Dems Will Learn
That the back and forth is good for the soul and has a good chance of keeping them honest. Also, those boys and girls in power still haven't adjusted to the beautiful world of the Internet. Saw Milk last night. Imagine how helpful the Internet would've been then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. good stuff
we are all so used to being "losers" that we have forgotten how to play. our constitution commands that we remain vigilant and free to express ourselves.

happy new year
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. It will be an amazing period. Our future is at stake, literally.
And Happy Solstice to you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
47. It is the responsibility of citizens of a democracy to NOT trust politicians.
And, if they are due criticism it should be expressed, loudly. They are our servants, not our masters, or "leaders", that we irresponsibly turn over our lives to without question.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mark Twain Girl Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. True, that. I don't even understand the "you must support so-and-so"
Support? No thanks. A politician works for the people and needs to be reminded of it constantly. All politicians, no exceptions, need their feet constantly held to the fire, especially since there's so much money in politics.

We are the body politic. The most dangerous thing we can do is forget we're in the driver's seat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. "Public servants"
We've gone from that to a system where they behave as though we're here to serve them. That
doesn't apply to Obama but it does to the judiciary, almost all of Congress, and certainly
our soon to be evicted criminal in chief. Distrust generating hyper vigilance and anxiety on the
part of our leaders improves performance and lessens the chance for disaster.

Our leverage as citizens was given away by Gerald Ford when he pardoned Nixon. Some were above
the law, namely those elected to the highest office; a form of medieval royal prerogative. Ford
ushered in the neoconservatives and kicked citizens to the curb.

There's a lot of truth in the last quote by Debs. Leaders need to fire the middlemen. Obama will
succeed beyond anyone's expectations when Congress gets in the way of his recovery program and he
seeks the support of the people directly. The obstructions are already flexing their muscles after
their success in turning back the automaker bailout. They can't stop. It's their nature. But they
can be stopped given 70% approval for Obama and 75% disapproval of Congress. If that happens,
it will lay the foundation to reverse the elitist direction initiated by Ford.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
54. Someone needs to speak out to Obama's people on Healthcare
Obama's healthcare plan is similar to Mitt Romney's corporate sop plan. It is NOT a single-payer plan. Obama needs to change course ASAP in order to get a true single payer/universal healthcare plan passed.

E. V. Debs was right. Speak up and speak truth to power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
55. You have the right to criticize all you want
but it just becomes annoying if it is the only thing to do.

Good criticism involves assuming good faith and understanding the intentions of others. If you fail to do both of these things, then expect others to criticize your criticism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #55
98. Assuming spoils understanding.
"If you fail to do both of these things, then expect others to criticize your criticism."

You write that like it's a bad thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #55
99. delete duplicate
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 04:41 AM by Mithreal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
58. Another awesome post! K & R!
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Milione ringraziamenti !!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
59. Spectacular OP autorank! Thank-you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. thanks to you!!!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
62. It seems consistent with practically everything else we know about
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 11:18 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Barak up to now. He is actually INTERESTED in TRUTH, isn't he - in seeking it, in finding aspects of it which might profitably modify and enrich what he feels he has learnt up to that time. I think it is that quality that is largely responsible for his confident demeanour. Let the weenies make their racist remarks. They do nothing but exhibit their own sorry, moral and inevitably mental, deficiencies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
63. Bush Gang intimidated people, called them unpatriotic.
They silenced the opposition and look where it got us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. That answer is worth $800!
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 02:18 PM by autorank
Isn't that the sad truth. 911 followed by the anthrax attack did it. Anthrax to opposition leaders
and the Inquirer (???). But they got "their man" - case closed. d

How about those "Overmountain" people:

The Watauga Association (sometimes referred to as the Republic of Watauga or the Watauga Settlement) was a semi-autonomous government from 1772 to 1777 in what is now Northeast Tennessee. The settlers negotiated a ten-year lease of the land from the Cherokee in 1772 and, being beyond the jurisdiction of any existing government, established their own. The Articles of the Watauga Association are sometimes called a "constitution" and noted for being strongly democratic.<1>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watauga_Association
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. The problem with the Cherokee
They had good farm land,took in escaped slaves and finally, someone discovered Gold on their lands. Andrew Jackson, in defiance of the Supreme Court, took it all away and deported them to Oklahoma, to a place atop one of the biggest oil fields in the US.
One of our neighbors was a tribal member and received a decent check from royalties. He was a great gardener and very low key. Every time I saw him, he wore bib overalls and a plaid shirt.
One day he decided to go into Oklahoma City and buy himself a new car. He was at the Chrysler dealership admiring a large sedan, all the time being ignored by the salesmen.
He called over one of the sales people and asked him the total price. He then asks the salesman if he has change for a ten. He reaches into his pocket and hands the salesman a $10,000 bill and says, I'll wait for it if you don't mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Can't find the exact quote, but G. Washington asked
an Indian agent (Return J. Meigs, I think) to explain to Oconostota that settlers don't give up land once they've made improvements on it. From Oconostota's POV (War Chief of Cherokee 1771-1782 approx.) the lease was up and he wanted his land back. He decided to evict them.

"In 1770 a handful of pioneers, under James Robertson, crossed the Alleghanies and settled upon the Cherokee territory at Watauga. Oconostota granted them an eight year lease, but in March, 1775, they demanded an absolute cession of the territory.

At the treaty council, Oconostota opposed this in an eloquent speech in which he predicted the fate of his nation. His speech was so impassioned that the other indian leaders got up and left the negotiations. However, then the negotiators prepared a great feast and invited the Indians, getting them drunk on rum in the process.

Eventually the council reconvened and Oconostota was overruled by the other leaders. The cession of the Watauga lands was made, and also of the Cherokee claim to all of Kentucky."

http://www.aaanativearts.com/Cherokee/Oconostota.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
64. Could it at least wait for Jan 20?
Or maybe say the 21st?

I'd hate to be married to some of these people - they'd start the complaining on the honeymoon.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. only if he closes his transition down
. . . and pulls back all of the initiatives, appointments, and activity he's promoted so far.

Why do the critics of the critics believe Obama's transition is actively soliciting feedback in several different forms and forums? Why shouldn't we respond to that appeal from the transition?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
70. As usual, an amazing post from Autorank.
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msedano Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
73. Debs-style leadership sorely absent ever since.
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 05:49 PM by msedano
I cannot think of a single politician with Debs' character and values. "Me, me, me" is not the sound of the Fat Lady preparing her final aria, but the mating cry of the birds of a feather taking their place in houses of Congress and seats of office. "They do the thinking and you do the voting" is why ballots need an extra choice, "None of the above."

Sadly, most folk miss the point that criticism holds an actuality to an ideal and finds the places where things match, and don't match. Hence, to be criticized is to be honored, if only for the comparison to the ideal. I think Plato didn't say that. Criticize away, people! Call attention to what remains undone, unbegun, unfinished, done poorly. I suspect results will show a lot of stuff done approximately right.

Finally, a literary flight you might enjoy, from Browning's Andrea Del Sarto...

Well, less is more, Lucrezia: I am judged.
There burns a truer light of God in them,
In their vexed beating stuffed and stopped-up brain,
Heart, or whate'er else, than goes on to prompt
This low-pulsed forthright craftsman's hand of mine.
Their works drop groundward, but themselves, I know,
Reach many a time a heaven that's shut to me,
Enter and take their place there sure enough,
Though they come back and cannot tell the world.
My works are nearer heaven, but I sit here.
The sudden blood of these men! at a word--
Praise them, it boils, or blame them, it boils too.
I, painting from myself and to myself,
Know what I do, am unmoved by men's blame
Or their praise either. Somebody remarks
Morello's outline there is wrongly traced,
His hue mistaken; what of that? or else,
Rightly traced and well ordered; what of that?
Speak as they please, what does the mountain care?
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?


My appreciaton to Collins for a superb article, Collins. Too bad there isn't a U.S. publication with the commitment to plain speaking to publish this.

recommended.

mvs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
74. Overcomplication......again.
Criticizing Obama, that's a pretty funny thing to see given the "criticism"("swiftboating us", "throwing us under the but") I've read here. Waiting for Obama to actually become president, then criticizing him for what he does is logical if you disagree. Criticizing him for what he might do once he is president is just second-rate fortune telling. Making appointments to his cabinet, whether Clinton, Richardson, etc. or the now defunct Mickey Mouse Club, it hasn't put into effect one single law, or policy change. Why" Because he is not the president yet, therefore his cabinet choices are not yet cabinet members, which comes full circle to Obama. They are not yet cabinet members, therefore criticizing them for being appointed, and yet to make any dicisions as such, is just more of the same cheap fortune-telling. The fortune tellers are just pissed off because logic seems to be the prevailing characteristic here at DU. I'd suggest an aggressive daily regimen of Bartcop. Lot of people need to get their priorities straight. Thanks.
quickesst
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
78. I resent the continued implications that if I don't criticize Obama I am a
non-thinking person. I think it's ridiculous to critique just for the sake of being critical. Frankly, those who are hell bent on incessant whining before Obama steps one foot in office have lost credibility IMO. Those are my THOUGHTS.

Am I unhappy about Warren? Of course. Does that mean I am ever disillusioned? Hell no! ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
79. I agree !
Obama is an Asshole !!! :sarcasm: (Just in case).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
80. Kicked, rec'd, and bookmarked
and thanks for the reminder on why I voted for this guy:

"I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too." Barack Obama, July 3, 2008


<3
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
84. A lot of good things going on on this thread. good post. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
86. Sorry I missed this thread in time to Rec...

I think it's possible to criticize Obama and hope that he becomes the best president ever.

If this were a Republican website owned by Fox News then I could see everyone having to fall in line. But democracy can be a messy process sometimes and so can Democracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
100. K&R
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 05:44 AM by Hubert Flottz
I will not walk in lockstep like a GOPer!

ooops...too late for the R...sorry been fishin'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
104. better idea---> let's pick the living-shit out of each move he makes until he is distracted ! ! ! !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
105. Of the people, by the people, for the people.
To blindly trust your government is to be a fool.


I will not sit down and shut up.:evilgrin:

Thanks for the post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC