An old Jewish lady's perspective on Israel and Anti-Semitism

I'm 54. I've heard it all: how in medieval times, Jews killed Christian babies and used their blood to make Passover Matzoah. How we controlled all the banks and the money, all about our dirty usury practices. We're greedy, strange, tribal barbarians who should just stick to stand-up and psychiatry. I've especially heard how we killed the Christian Messiah, so it's our own fault we were walled up in Ghettos and gassed in concentration camps.

Yup. This crazy shit has actually reached my ears during the time I've been alive. However, it's pretty easy to dismiss as the rantings of the lunatic fringe. What's totally discouraging, especially as death rains down on Gaza, is hearing stupid bigotry from so-called 'liberals'.

I can't even tell you the countless times I've heard "you Jews" when what my progressive friends mean (at least I HOPE they mean) is "That Israeli Government". Nobody more than I condemns Israel's actions--and you better believe there are Israelis who condemn them even more. But it's old-fashioned bigotry, painting people with the same brush, not seeing the nuance or the shades of gray. We must all be guilty of committing the heinous acts against innocent Palestinians, never mind that we post here with the rest of you denouncing human rights violations.

Listen, this is how it works: The Israeli Government's death rain on Gaza is like using a chainsaw to do brain surgery. But there are plenty of people in Israel, and Jews all over the world, who despise these actions. Please don't lump us all into one entity--it reminds me of the prejudice I hear from the righties.

As for the mammoth Israel/Palestine issues, my personal opinion is that it's one big Gordian knot, you can justify every action on both sides: but as the Prince says in Romeo and Juliet: All are punish-ed and A pox on both your houses. While history is important, it's far more dire to heal the wounds and find common ground.

If Apartheid South Africa can do it, so can the middle east.

Where all discussion of this major news story seems to be sequestered.

on this difficult subject. though I might add, most of those that post I/P issues in the GD forum, are using it as a place NOT engage in a discussion, but to mostly bash Israel with words or polls using descriptions like "genocide",
and the like to incite, rather than serve a useful discussion on solutions

What is also disturbing is the frequency I have seen some use anti-Jewish remarks to describe this conflict, and by anti-Jewish, I am NOT referring to criticism of Israel, but a direct attack on the Jewish religion or heritage. The good part is that the moderators do not let remarks like that stand very long, but just noticing the frequency of those remarks in the last two days is quite disturbing, for a forum that is "suppossed" to contain a progressive mindset

I wish it were otherwise, as do a lot of people here.

It just doesn't help matters to fling invective.

and not that I feel that it belongs there anymore than most others locked down or briskly whisked out of sight of GD no matter what the bias--- let's just say the "rules" seem very arbitrary, to put it politely.

That's why they have the forum. Frankly, I was surprised that the Warren stuff wasn't whisked off to the LGBT forum...I guess his presence at the inaugural is what saved that!

Apparently, there can be NO pictures on the forum, either. Not sure if that's because people post pics of carnage, or what.

I discovered that when I had a post removed because I posted an inoffensive pic of a location, by way of explanation.

I think a little aggressive moderation might solve the problem better than this sequestering/apartheid currently in use. Perhaps suspending people who can't work and play nicely with others?

I seem to recall that the Lebanon WAR got shuffled off that way, too...last time I checked, Lebanon wasn't Palestine.

I just don't get the logic. Or the thought process that led to this way of doing business. It is sort of odd, no doubt. No matter how one justifies it.

Oh well. Ours is not to reason why, I guess.

The only thing Israel will succeed in is causing more death and destruction in the Gaza Strip.

I try very hard to make sure I differentiate between the Israeli government and Jews in general because I know exactly what you are talking about. I know American Jews who aren't allowed to go to Israel because of their activism in promoting peace. The Israeli government is not all Jews. And what the Israeli government is doing will not bring about peace.

It's just getting used to middle age!

:silly:

What a coincidence that we agree on this!

Thank you for the reminder on the distinction between the Israeli Government and 'Jews'. All to often people make the mistake, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not.

I agree completely on the knot. All are to blame. Retaliations for retaliations. Violence breeds violence. We are farther from peace today than months ago, and likely closer than months from now. It is a tragic mess.

just as the good folks of this country are being controlled by thugs....being Jewish does not excuse that. A thug is a thug is a thug. Judging anyone on anything but character is the height of folly to say nothing of ignorance and stupidity. Look to Einstein and the great Jews who have changed the course of history that would fill volumes. They did these things not because they were Jews but because they were decent human beings who had greatness in them and they shared that greatness with all of us and for that we owe them great respect. Good folks come from all walks of life and so too does genius which befits us all. The thugs that are controlling Israel are still thugs and do not get a free ride on the coattails of a horrific past; To destroy civilizations because they are Jews and do not deserve even a nanosecond of respect. That distinction my friends must always be made clear and loud no matter how dark and ugly things become and they are going to become that in spades. The planned chaos is well under way.

And recommended.

Apartheid in South Africa didn't have the multi-thousand year clash of inerrant religions behind it. It is the religious aspect of the I/P quagmire that makes it so intractable, IMO.

Religious wars are by far the nastiest and most difficult to bring to a satisfactory end.

Add to what you said, that it is not an a local issue either. It's regional. Arguably global these days.

US support makes it possible to continue the israel apartheid. unlike So Africa.

and it's NOT a religious war, at least for the palestinian side, they're just in the way.

Anyway, we will know for certain after the election.

Since I have been busy with the holidays the last few days, I haven't had much time on here.

Does no one support the Israeli government?

What would we do if Mexicans were lobbing unguided missiles at San Diego and El Paso daily? Why should Israelis take it day after day after day? Are their lives worth less than ours? Should the Israelis just lob several unguided missiles back at the Palestinians day after day? Or send suicide bombers into Gaza when one is sent into Israel? Would that be o.k.? Is that what we did to Germany during WWII? Just used as much force as they used against us? Is that the way we suppressed violence directed at us? Do we have more rights in the world than Israelis? Just asking.

Actually two failed analogies:

The first is a fantasy comparison with Mexicans lobbing missles and it is based completely on emotion without regard to causation or reality.


The second is an equally crazed Nazi analogy. Nazi analogies are usually bull. This is no exception. Actually I have a personal rule that states that anyone that makes a Nazi analogy should be slapped upside the head with a big dead fish.

And our only counter measure would be to respond by shooting jobs right back at them.


No, wait, that's a bad analogy too.

 

So bizarre an analogy I have no idea what to make of it. Though one wonders if you couldn't say something about 'reaction-feedback' but I don't think I want to overstrain a strange joke into being a broken analogy.

I do agree with you. And, find both your analogies perfectly appropriate.

I also hate what is happening :-(

It dropped to 25% when Lebanon went badly for Israel.

If the results are the same this close to the election, the hardliners will suffer at the polls.

but EVERYBODY has to put what's happened in the past and start with a new perspective. Stop keeping count of wrongs done unto you and start doing unto others as you would have done unto you.

PS--I'm 57 and I do not consider myself old. At 54, you aren't, either!

Or at least certain portions of the cultures make a fetish of reciting every wrong they have ever suffered.

This whole conflict basically boils down to "God gave this land to *us* and we're not budging".. Or at least that is my perspective as a total outsider.

It kind of makes me glad sometimes that, for reasons too complicated to relate here, I didn't learn anything at all of my ancestry until I was middle aged, there are so many people I'm supposed to hate.

Something I thought might never happen, and yet it did.

It's a mess, and the Neocons et al. surely haven't helped. The least we progressives ought to do is keep our facts straight and not throw more vinegar in the marinade.

Hekate

I wish the whole world could get together and say "Fine, if you can't work it out, then YOU ALL have to leave. NOBODY gets to live there. We'll make it a giant museum and people can only visit." I know that's not possible but it would be nice.

really IMO it is sad you had to say this though

:thumbsup:

KnR

I'm 30. I have no money and I really wish those rumors of Jews controlling all the money were true.

As for I/P - I agree with you.

Even though some Muslims' being anti-Jewish can be understood in light of recent history, it can neither be condoned nor excused. The other side, however, is that anti-Zionism, or even mild criticism of Israeli government or settler actions, is sometimes labeled as 'antisemitism.' Such labeling serves as a facade behind which to justify unjustifiable actions; but one of its effects is to produce that which it pretends to abhor, antisemitism.

Personally, I was first made aware of the plight of Palestine by young Jewish people who abhorred what had been done by Zionism. Their response was open, political opposition in the U.S., including the education of young Americans like myself who had been indoctrinated by mainstream acceptance of what Israel did. Their lot for such activity was to be called "self-hating Jews" -- itself an antisemitic political ploy that is generally unrecognized for what it is.

As for the Gordian Knot, it is Gordian indeed. It is a shame that Israel was ever imposed on Palestine; but it is a fact of history. A nation of millions exists, most of which were born there. That is unlikely to be changed, any more than is the presence in the Americas of the descendents of Europeans. "Both sides"? There are varied sides. But two of the sides, the Israeli government and Hamas both in their ways attempt to cut the knot, not to untie it. So long as they do (and as each undertakes actions that a claimed to justify the actions of the other side), the knot will not be untied.

.

Everyone mutters nowadays.

And their music ... !

I've never heard those things, thankfully. I can't imagine how you felt.

There are a lot of people who feel that Israel and Jews are one in the same, and I think this is where a lot of problems start.

Chainsaw to do brain surgery... that about nails it.

Your last sentence should be shouted from mountaintops all over the world! I'm sick to death of hearing how only violence can make this situation better! Right her on DU! I kid you not!

He was in boot camp here recently. He connected deeply with a Rabbi, and went to a synagogue a few times. He gave me his cheap "military" issue Star of David. (He's being deployed to Afghanistan soon)He knows nothing about being a Zionist, or the ancient history of a people with incredible perseverance as far as I can tell.

Thing is, I'm not religious and didn't raise my children to be. I do know that to me, in my casual study, the history of Judaism and the diaspora is one of the richest in human culture, that there has never been one side to it. That it expresses and encompasses all that is good and bad in human nature, and somewhere in that morass of the human condition there is a peaceful and equitable solution. I don't know what it is. I don't know when. I don't know shit, really.

But I agree with you, and if Judaism the religion with all that entails, is going to be a bigger part of my life than ever I expected, I'd love to figure out of way to be a part of that solution.

Nothing like up close and personal to make me think a little deeper, and stop my own knee jerk responses.

Not all israeli people support their governments actions in the same way that not all americans support the US government in Iraq.

The two sides are caught in a revenge cycle where no one wants to talk peace until they have gotten their last lick in.

Back in the late 1990s, I happened to have dinner at a Middle Eastern restaurant in Portland with a friend, and we started talking to our waiter, who turned out to be from Lebanon.

I remarked that things seemed to have quieted down there, and he said that one day, people had just looked around and asked, "What are we doing to ourselves, and whatever we're supposedly fighting about, is it worth destroying our country for?" He said that the country had enjoyed a peace dividend, in that businesses made tremendous amounts of money rebuilding the cities.

(That's why the Israeli attacks on Lebanon were especially sad, occurring so shortly after the Lebanese had rebuilt their country.)

... isn't exactly progressive.


:hug:

:hug:

Hekate

Rather than see people, we seem to want to see categories that we can safely make "enemies" and kill, starve, enslave, torture, with impunity because they are not human.

We make them faceless, nameless, enemies. And, ultimately, they are made targets by the military. Targets, not people.

That's what I picked out of the OP, and that's what I'll bear in mind, while watching to see how Obama handles the situation next month. (Forget about Bush; he's away on vacation again!).

pnorman

people are awful and tacky and to say those things right out loud to you...well people never cease to amaze

i personally do not feel that israel is using a chainsaw to do brain surgery, i think they are a small country surrounded by large countries that hate them and that they pretty much have to respond strongly to being attacked, so i would not blame anyone in israel or anyone jewish if they did support this action, to be honest i tend to support it myself and i'm somewhat surprised that i appear to be in the minority among progressives on this issue

that's just my humble opinion however

Even well educated people (and better educated than me) or supposedly liberal or progressive people turn a blind eye to anti-semitism, and say things like "Jew them down" without realizing what they are saying.

I couldn't even count the number of little comments like this I have heard in my life.

I support Israel's right to defend their citizens.

I do not think that the silence on 6000 rockets falling on Israel is right, but I do think this response is too strong.

But what I read from supposed progressives about Jews and Israel is terrible, and you only need to read a little in the I/P forum to see that the lines between anti-semitism and anti-Israel are pretty blurry.

omg you sound just like her. I grew up Roman Catholic with a Jewish best friend and we are still BFF! It was a wonderful learning experience for us both. When she entered her profession she changed her last name, at her Father's suggestion, to her mother's maiden name which was much more Generic and did not immediately scream JEW. I completely understand what you are saying.

I need to point out that I hate being called anti Semitic or Jew hater when I decry the crimes of the Israeli government. Thank you for a wonderful post!

:)

I just got back to my computer after a few hours in the shopping mall (survived, but barely!) and I was pleased and surprised by all the replies. Gotta answer en masse: First, 54 is older than I've ever been, so all youse who're chastising me, remember it's all relative. :D Anyway, the point I'm making with my age is that I've been aware of the shitstorm going down in Israel/Palestine since I was 12 during the 6 day war. And as a lot of you have pointed out, it just gets worse and the cycle of violence is only escalating.

You'd think people who were the first slaves, the first Ghetto denizens and amongst the worst victims of genocide would do everything they could not to oppress another culture. To me, that's the worst tragedy of all.

And someone else mentioned what I was thinking about but forgot to write, with all my self-editing: it just cheapens the concept when Israel is legitimately criticized and someone starts screaming Anti-Semitism. It's why we have to make the distinction between the govt and the Jewish people, so that card can't be played and the dialogue can continue. I find that someone will kvetch about Jew hating just to end the conversation when the Israeli Govt is lambasted.

And to the first poster, I thought about starting this thread in the I/P forum, but it's not really about the issues between them, it's about how people perceive Jews.

And last, to the Catholic poster: I'm not your BFF Kate, I'm Anja from San Francisco.:hi: But my BFF is a Catholic as well, and I used to go with her to Easter services, and she came to Temple for Passover with me a few times. I also have two great old Muslim lady friends--one's 50, from Northern India and the other is 52 from Damascus, Syria. I love these chicks, they're strong and confident and the Syrian one can drink me under the table.

An example I give only because if we let prejudice influence our perception, we miss out on some of the greatest people we could ever know. And that is a tragedy we should all work to avert!

:kick: :toast:

But it's interesting: I travel all the time, I work for the airlines, and I'm in Europe at least twice a year. I can tell you, the people I encounter in other countries never instantly assumed I was pro-Bush just because I'm a Yank. Their education includes cultural awareness, unlike the isolationist philosophy we have in the US.

Anyway, now that we have Barack Star, the Europeans are actually jealous of us! My friends are talking about immigrating.

It wasn't that long ago I met an acquaintance of my wife...they had known each other for a while but didn't know we were Jewish until I brought it up. She then joked "ya know, I was always told you people (yep, you people) have horns"...or at least I thought she was joking. But then I've encountered this kind of "joking" all my life. I've also seen my share of discrimination and intolerance...all pointing to many misunderstandings and centuries of anti-semetic rhetoric and more.

As a child, I heard first-hand the stories of my grandmother about growing up in a shtetl (small village) in what is now Poland, but then was Russia. Her town was regularly pillaged by the Cossacks and local police...raping and killing just due to the person's religious beliefs. This was 40 years before the holocoust...fortunately both sides of my family escaped to this country, but it didn't mean they escaped anti-sememtism. My mother had to keep her religion secret in the late 30's and early 40's or face losing her job. She would fake illness to attend High Holy Day services. There were many areas in this country they couldn't live in or clubs and associations they couldn't join. This wasn't that long ago...

While many Jews support the concept of Israel and a homeland for the Jews, that has never meant lock-step support for whatever government in charge, just like many of us here didn't support the booooosh regime and most condemn their actions. Likud is no different than neo-cons...driven by the power.

I've traveled to Israel several times...the first time following the '67 war in '69 and traveled the West Bank and even Gaza...met Palestinians and see a common thread on both sides that have been abused by leaders on each side. The bottom line is economic...it always has been. A Palestinian state as it currently exists has virtually no infrascture yet a financial base to enable it to survive without massive foreign aid (not to mention all the political strife it has and will create). Israel can't survive alone, either...spending so much on defense with so little to show. The irony is that both groups have suffered a lot over the centuries, yet have been used as pawns by superpower and regional power games.

Yes, it's real easy to broadbrush the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I wish there were no need for violence on either side...that there could be a means to bring people together to co-exist...neither side is going away. Living past grudges or trying to "out victim" the other side has failed for both sides. Here's hoping a revitalized US and Obama Administration can work to restore some kind of dialogue in the region.

Cheers...

It's about like blaming all the people in West Virginia for our beautiful old mountains being systematically destroyed by the greedy utility companies.

I've been stereotyping Jewish people for a long time. I love the stereotype that I had. People who stood up for human rights, people who were intelligent, had a good sense of humor, loved art and music, espoused liberal ideas about race, etc. I wished to be Jewish!
It was a disappointment to me, then, at the run-up to the Iraq invasion, to see that my own Jewish friends and many powerful Jewish people that I observed were fully supportive of our involvement in Iraq. I guess that my ideas changed then. I began to read about the powerful influences in our own country that cared more about Israel than they did about our own interests. I also became aware of the way that the Palestinians are treated in the name of self-defense.
Now I understand Jewish loyalty to Israel, but I expect Israelis to observe basic human rights just as I expect from my own government. If they don't, then I don't think that we should financially support them to the extent that we do.

A line from Auden's poem "September 1,1939"
"I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return."
http://www.poemdujour.com/Sept1.1939.html

:D

:rofl:

neighborhoods in Northern Ireland when the IRA was bombing Britain in the 1970's. And when the British tried torturing the IRA prisoners, it backedfired on them. Israel has tortured Palestinians they've rounded up, both terrorists and civilian, and it has not made them any safer. In fact, it just provided more fuel to this fire.

Israel is the 4th or 5th most powerful military in the world, thanks to the United States. There is no way Israel can be driven into the sea, which is the main excuse I hear from Jews I know. I tell them that it is more likely Israel is trying to drive the Palestinians into the sea so they can steal their lands.

Zionism is a mutation of Western European colonialism, per the late Mahatma Gandhi. And contrary to Zionist propaganda, Hamas was willing to accept a pre-1967 border agreement with Israel. The big wrenches in these peace plans has always been the Jewish settlements, which Israel does not want to give up, and the Palestinian right of return.

Re Zionism is a mutation of Western European colonialism, per the late Mahatma Gandhi. And contrary to Zionist propaganda, Hamas was willing to accept a pre-1967 border agreement with Israel. The big wrenches in these peace plans has always been the Jewish settlements, which Israel does not want to give up, and the Palestinian right of return.

It was a nationalistic movement, born of the desire for self-determination and self-preservation. You cannot be anti-Zionist and still claim you aren't anti-Semitic, not when you're speaking to a Jewish audience. Anti-Zionism "reads" as anti-Semitism to Jews, because very often it *IS.*

I say this as someone who has always opposed the settlements, and what Rabbi Michael Lerner has called "settler Judaism," which DOES contain a strong colonialist/imperialist strain. But this is a recent aberration that has nothing to do with authentic Judaism...or authentic Zionism either.

than in it. Makes one wonder why Israel needed to be created in the first place.

It's annoying to hear people criticizing Israeli government action by saying "the Jews" do this or that. I can't say I've never crossed that sloppy line myself, but I try to pick my words carefully. It's equally annoying to hear people accuse all critics of Israel of being antisemitic.

I do worry that the lion's share of the blame seems to go toward Israel instead of Hamas, which is guilty of using its pathetic little missile attacks to poke its fingers in the lion's cage. Pissing off people ten time more powerful than you is never smart, unless you don't count getting your neighbor's kids blown to bits as "dumb."

especially those, like myself, who know the difference between "Jews" and "the Israeli government," as the OP distinguishes them. I have nothing against Jews, or any other ethnicity or religion for that matter, but I don't appreciate being called a racist when I find fault with the actions of a government.

I contend that anyone who knee-jerks and screams Anti-Semitism re thoughtful criticism of Israel just wants to shut down the conversation.

Which is why I am VERY vocal myself! No one can accuse me of prejudice against Jews, I got a pedigree to prove them wrong!

Also, I too was horrified at how many neo-cons--Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol to name 3 off the top of my head--were Jewish. But then, we also gave the world Boxer, Feingold, and batshit crazy (but right a lot of the time) Noam Chomsky.

IOW, Jews are individuals, not a big block of one mindset. Kinda the original point I was making!

This goes without saying, at least to me. Obviously, I can't gauge your experience, but it seems to me that antisemitism in the U.S. is on the wane, while anti-Muslim sentiments are roiling, for fairly obvious reasons. Your message is well-taken of course, I just hope everyone understands that it applies just as accurately to Muslims or anyone else.

My problem regarding the media is that virtually every Middle East "expert" called upon to opine in the MSM is either Jewish or Christian, and there are precious few Arab or Muslim voices in the mix. Of course, ethnicity is a secondary consideration: Certainly we're not going to see, for example, Noam Chomsky or Norman Finklestein chatting with Wolf Blitzer anytime soon, and if a Muslim were to appear and take Israel's side, he'd probably be a best-selling author and cable news regular within a few weeks.

But none of this implies any silly "Elders of Zion"-type conspiracy. The only exclusive group that controls media or government is the obscenely wealthy--and the viewers themselves. It's hard to say at this point which is driving the bias more, because it's entirely likely that if any of the networks started covering the conflict in a truly balanced way, they would suffer withering criticism and a decline in ratings for it.

What is also lost is that not all Israeli's are Jewish. Most yes, but there are plenty of Palestinian/Arab and Christians that are citizens, hell they have voting rights and reps in the government as well. So this isn't Jewish people committing genocide as many have suggested.
I think the government of Israel is very heavy handed but the people who dismiss Hamas role in this (who don't seem to care how many Palestinians are killed since they surround themselves with civilians deliberately) are closing their eyes to the truth.
Oh and I now will NOT read a post that has the word "Zionist" in it anymore. To me thats become a cord word used most frequently by bigots who are trying to hide their anti-semitism.

What is particularly bizarre is the number of people who assume that Israel is entirely composed of *Europaean* Jews. I believe it's roughly 40%, with another 40% being non-European (mostly Middle Eastern) Jews, and 20% Arabs or Druze. There are also some other non-Jewish citizens: contrary to some views, the Right of Return does *not* mean that *only* Jews can immigrate to Israel.

This middle-aged British secular Jewish lady agrees with you.

54 is NOT old. :)

Great post.

Okay, full disclosure, I really don't feel any older than I did @ 31--except it's just freaky to think about how quickly time has passed.

And since I'm descended from Ashkenazi peasants, I got very lucky with a strong constitution. Here's a pic of the Old Jew lady with her Old Indian/Muslim friend biking across the GG bridge in October:

<a href="" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Strong and healthy again! Golden Gate Bridge Oct 08"></a>

That's me in blue on the left. So just in case you thought I spent my days knitting and cooking Latkes, I'll kill the ageist stereotype along with all the others!

You make me wish I lived near the water with that picture.

This 51-year-old is jealous!

But as to your point: One of the most lamentable human traits is the classification of people, of putting them in categories based on where they're from, what their parents believe(d), etc. It comes from ignorance and fear, coupled from a lack of logic--for instance, comparing American secular Jews with current policies of the state of Israel, and beyond that, the rashest ones.

So Happy New Year! My ex bought me a bike for Xmas, and I can only hope to use it as well as you seem to have used yours. :toast:

I hope you enjoy yours as well. I'm so much happier pedaling than driving--except in winter weather. This pic was taken when SF is at its best, in October. I love taking people across the bridge, and pointing out why we here pay the big bucks for the privilege.

Anyway, pic posted to kill some stereotypes. Jews also have a rep of being hothouse flower princesses or academic Yeshiva boys. Me and (triathlon participant) Rahm Emanuel are ready to shatter that idea!

about those stereotypes. My parents grew up in a part of St. Louis that was primarily Jewish at the time.

"hothouse flower princesses or academic Yeshiva boys"

:rofl:


First bike ride on new bike: tomorrow. Thanks for the encouragement. It's especially welcome on New Year's Eve.