Affording the new Hybrid...NOT.

This is in response to the Hybrid Hailers:

According to the Wage surveys available

http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ncbl0832.pdf

and crunched very slightly by your obedient servant...

The average Joe is making about $12.50/hour. That's $26,000/year, GROSS. Start yanking out FICA, hospitalization (if they're lucky), rent/house payment...there isn't enough money to SAVE anything, let alone PAY for a new $20K+ car.

The lots at the last place I worked didn't even have new cars for all the white collars, and most of those were not cracking $15-18K except for the biggest bosses.

As long as we keep singing the praises of the "newest thing," we are climbing the gallows. A sea change is needed:

*jobs that don't rely on making mass quantities of expensive cars,
*tax structures that compel the rich to pay their fair share,
*fast, safe and abundant mass transit,
*massive green energy initiatives.

All that said, with my usual pessimism, I don't think any of those things will happen without all of us being dragged to them kicking and screaming.

retrofit kit to change our current vehicles to hybrid electrics.

http://www.theaircar.com/

I keep posting about this one once in a while...their projected sticker was less than $9,000 for the strictly air models.

http://www.ev1.org/

The EV1 was a fully developed electric vehicle. The last company I worked for even made parts for them.

or

http://www.thinkglobalforum.com/

TH!NK Car is coming back.

We DO NOT have to develop something NEW. The cars could be on sale TOMORROW, without the massive resource input of building all those hybrids. I can't afford one. Can you?

just emailed the entire thread to my husband, who is a mechanic and who is looking for ways to take one of our old cars and make it into a hybrid.

In California, the EV1 leases for $399/month which includes a 220 volt home charger and a portable 110 volt "convenience charger." The lease is higher in Arizona due to different state government incentives. The current lease term is 3 years/30,000 miles, but 2 year leases are rumored to be coming. GM is undecided as to whether to make the cars available for sale at the end of the lease, largely due to government regulations that would require GM to support the car with parts and service for many years. Due to the rapidly evolving nature of electric and other advanced vehicles, GM understandably may not wish to provide parts and service for the current EV1 that long. Many EV1 drivers want to purchase their cars regardless, and we have expressed our desires to GM. I think the EV1 is a car collector's dream, and would like to own mine. Generation 2 EV1 lease prices have not been established as of this writing, nor have the re-lease prices of the Generation 1 cars when the original leases expire.

http://www.kingoftheroad.net/charge_across_america/charge_html/faqs.html

And that is priced 10 years ago.

Hardly cheap.

http://www.dontcrush.com/
http://wrightreports.ecnext.com/coms2/reportdesc_COMPANY_00752H102
http://www.zqpt.com/zqenglish/index.htm

I could keep posting links, but I think you should try it yourself. My hand hasn't healed yet and it hurts.

The manufacturer claims that it's safe and presents an argument making it sound like these are rupture-proof, but if a solid steel tank can fail just by sitting there, you'll never convince me that a PLASTIC and CARBON tank is going to survive a 55MPH head on collision with another car without cracking.

I couldn't find any pictures of blown compressors, but here's a blown hot water heater video for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_Wrm-Ns0I. Watch that and consider a few facts. First, hot water heaters blow at about 150PSI, half of what the Air Car will require. Second, water heater and compressor explosions inside of homes have been known to level large parts of the structure. Heavy wood and steel crumbled beneath the force of the blast. The Air Car, contrasting again, is mostly plastic.

A fully charged Air Car getting into an accident would have the blast potential of a small bomb. The blast wouldn't simply kill the people in the car, it would rip them apart. The Air Car manufacturer claims that the technology is similar to that used in LNG, propane, and other tanks for vehicles, but neglects to point out one extremely relevant fact: LNG powered personal vehicles are very rare. The technology is primarily used in busses and other large vehicles where the tanks are protected by either safety cages or the heavy mass of the vehicle itself. This type of use, in an unprotected plastic car, is both new and unsafe. The first time one of these cracks and kills someone, this company is going to be sued out of existence.

The tank is a HYDROGEN certified tank with a sacrificial seam at the bottom. Develops 1% of the pressure of Hydrogen or LNG.

Mexico City contracted for 20,000 of these to replace their aging Beetle Taxis, but VW came in and lowballed them.

As someone who has walked away from a 60MPH crash with only a few scratches, I take issue with your declaration that "nothing survives a 55MPH crash". In modern cars with modern safety equipment, wrecks are not only survivable, they're far less serious than they once were.

As to the car itself. According to MDI, the AirCar will have a tank pressure varying from 300 to 4500 PSI. Even at the low end, that is lethal at close range. As for the hydrogen certification, who certified it? Under what conditions? What was the tanks crush point? What was the tanks piercability? Most tank certifications simply validate that the tank is capable of holding pressure in a static environment when exposed to "normal" wear and tear. The occasional bump, maybe something being dropped on it, even the stray gunshot. But what about a 1000PSI crush across the whole length of the tank, similar to what would be experienced in a collision? Tanks aren't tested for that, because it's generally understood that a high pressure tank cannot be built to resist that kind of impact. That's why those tanks ARE NOT USED IN CARS. They're used in trucks and heavy equipment, where the tanks can be protected from impact. They're not used in passenger cars, much less plastic ones.

And the sacrificial seam is also largely irrelevant. It would be somewhat entertaining to see the sacrificial seam break on a tank fully charged to 4500 PSI. Want to take bets on how high that thing would launch? I'd bet 250 feet EASILY. It wouldn't be entertaining to be the poor sucker strapped in two feet from it. It wouldn't be much of anything really, because that poor sucker would be too dead to care.

the "sea change" needed is personal responsibility for how they spend the money they DO have.

Msongs
www.msongs.com

I'm in one of those White Collar ranges, and I am BROKE.

I don't use tobacco, drink VERY sparingly, Cable is the internet...and I'm looking forward to SS and that's IT.

I suggest if you haven't made $12-$15/hour recently, you have no idea how tough it is.

A 5 year old civic can be had for under 10k if you are so poverty stricken.

Why are the US car companies going broke? Lack of market share.

Sure there are mileage and quality issues, but remember that up until the last couple of years, Hyundai and KIA were Drowning.

If you don't SELL cars, you can't BUILD cars, or pay WAGES to people so THEY can BUY cars.

...there would be a world wide depression that would make 1929 look like the 80's.

Like I just said, you can't sell nothing but the high line: VW started by making BEETLES, and they made nothing else until the 50's.

just another blue collar dumb shit.

There are people like that, but we shouldn't base policy on punishing the stupid few.

This is really going on out there people, and it's the rule, not the exception. They could afford the old entry level Metro's, Hyundai's, and Escorts: No way can they afford anything but old used stuff now.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I didn't have cable tv, I didn't drink, and I didn't smoke. I think you've never been hurting for money if you think it's as simple as changing priorities.

So a cold beer and "The L Word" is only for those of us who don't have to save for it?

Sickening.

Absolute crap. I make within $.50/hr of the stated income range, am single and live alone.

Cable TV? Don't have it.

Internet? Don't have it. Use the office when I need to.

Alcohol? I don't drink.

Tobacco? Quit seven months ago.

Yeah... I'm really fucking irresponsible about the way I spend the disposable income I do have-- to me, a splurge is going to Half Price Books and spending $10.00-- maybe every five or six months.

I do buy food-- I guess that's something I should learn to live without. The little money I can actually save is going to a pet deposit and I think I'll have the $400.00 I need for it in about three more years. But again, I'm just a fucking irresponsible asshole draining the fucking country because I want a dog.

Maybe an additional sea-change is to stop making stupid fucking assumptions about how other people live unless you have absolute fucking knowledge about where every goddamn dime that they have, actually goes.


Gee... it's only March and I've just now met and exceeded my annual average usage of cursing.

Popular Hybrids:

Toyota Prius: MSRP: $23,070
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_prius_touring/;_ylt=AjDUUEEGZNd5eTJ3YQ5MPf1qJNIF

Honda Civic Hybrid: MSRP: $24,350
http://autos.yahoo.com/honda_civic_hybrid_cvt_at_pzev_w_navigation_system/;_ylt=Aqihe0dYIV8VGcO3ZGtrW09qJNIF

Toyota Camry Hybrid: MSRP $26,200
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_camry_hybrid_4_door_sedan/;_ylt=AkD4f3l2oj5Nfh8YoqnXQmh2JNIF

Ford Escape Hybrid FWD: MSRP: $25,655
http://autos.yahoo.com/2007_ford_escape_hybrid_fwd/;_ylt=AojBz0V0sTjl3hCJ7rbnJaN2JNIF

Non Hybrids:

Honda Accord Sedan EX 5-Spd AT MSRP: $23,350
http://autos.yahoo.com/honda_accord_sedan_ex_5_spd_at/;_ylt=AiIWIfVp4sUMMT0pgZ6gWUhaeb8F

Toyota Camry SE 5-Spd AT MSRP: $22,140
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_camry_se_5_spd_at/;_ylt=ApTZ6XZT0jbj9pvjPcNWVIx0fb8F

Chevrolet Malibu LT2 MSRP: $20,085
http://autos.yahoo.com/chevrolet_malibu_lt2/;_ylt=Am.vu93BxSlWBdBFHeVgrhDIf78F

Honda CR-V MSRP: $24,800
http://autos.yahoo.com/honda_cr_v_ex_l_2wd_5_spd_at/;_ylt=AgigWv2mjoATF2qv.GAIbIvmiL8F


Looks like Hybrids run about 2,000 to 3,000 more than comparable normal cars.

Hybrids are not exceedingly expensive cars.

I dont know why you even make this argument.

I don't know why some people feel compelled to slam hybrids. This guy is preaching that we need to be mean, clean and green, which a hybrid definitely helps a person become:shrug:

Which means something else gets cut.

What shouldn't you pay for? Bills? The little you put aside for retirement? The smidgeon you stash for a rainy day (That's a sore one for me: I spent the last quarter unemployed)? The College fund?

:shrug:

TH!NK and MDI cars are targeted to sell for under $10,000.

I worked in Automotive, and you don't understand how it works: if you want to sell MUSTANGS you have to make 10 ESCORTS. The lines must run, and you can't make a living making nothing but ACCURAs.

They are priced the same as average cars.

An Escape hybrid costs the same as a Honda CRV.

Why attack hybrids?

BTW I drove a 1994 GMC Jimmy to work today. I probably couldnt sell it for more than $2,000.

The battery and charging technology is THEIR. We could be building electric versions of the small vehicles or resurrecting EV1 or the electric RAV4 or going with the MDI.

The hybrid is a SCAM by the auto companies to build the next whiz-bang toy that still burns some gas and uses oil in the crankcase.

It is a transition technology, but I am sure you knew that

Oh and add to the scam Mr. Al Gore, obviously he's getting a cut from them

I work in the industry. We don't NEED a transition. We already had working electric vehicles. There are alternative fuel and NO FUEL vehicles. See post #6 for the links.

They got RID of them to make room for the HYBRIDS so they'd keep using at least SOME gas.

Since 1971, I've done it all.

edit: still can't spell it seems.

who never sold them, rather they LEASED them... but my memory could be faulty

Or the memory of who killed the Electrrc car could be faulty, I am not sure

Also, as I recall it corectly, they had another problem you have yet to even touch upon

Infrastructure... we don't hve the infrasctructure YET for a full fleet of fully electric cars

And the carcon you don't burn in your gas, you will burn in the power plant that is producing it

Just a small issue there

Oh and iirc those electrics wwhere fifty percent more expensive than the average family car, new technlogy and all that jazz

thanks for the correction

He has a problem with these vehicles though

Hmmmm.

There was also a RAV4 electric: there's a link here http://www.dontcrush.com/

Electrics thermodynamically remove a step in the power transfer equation, and any heat engine (even the Hydrogen or Ethanol ones) is never more than 30% efficient: Electrics approach 75%.

The cars you show are great commuter cars but sometimes folks have a longer commute and/or want to drive to the country for a weekend getaway or want to visit the Grandparents.

Plugin hybrids are about a year away and they will use even less gas.

The world has room for hybrids. I agree with you that pure electic cars should be brought back thou.

You haven't been keeping up with battery technology. And as far as true alternatives go, the MDI goes 300 KM at 90 KM/hour and recharges from a roof solar powered compressor.

:shrug:

The EV1 is currently only available for the lease. The Generation 1 EV1 (1997) M.S.R.P. is $33,995. In California, the EV1 leases for $399/month which includes a 220 volt home charger and a portable 110 volt "convenience charger." The lease is higher in Arizona due to different state government incentives. The current lease term is 3 years/30,000 miles, but 2 year leases are rumored to be coming. GM is undecided as to whether to make the cars available for sale at the end of the lease, largely due to government regulations that would require GM to support the car with parts and service for many years. Due to the rapidly evolving nature of electric and other advanced vehicles, GM understandably may not wish to provide parts and service for the current EV1 that long. Many EV1 drivers want to purchase their cars regardless, and we have expressed our desires to GM. I think the EV1 is a car collector's dream, and would like to own mine. Generation 2 EV1 lease prices have not been established as of this writing, nor have the re-lease prices of the Generation 1 cars when the original leases expire.

http://www.kingoftheroad.net/charge_across_america/charge_html/faqs.html

See post #6. Hand to sore to give you more links.

of the engine from MSRP

You ask the dealerships to ahem bid on the net for you

My Hybrid well that car we started with the bottom down to 20K

Now to the couple to the side of us was paying 25K for the exact same vehicle

You also need to learn how to negotiate

Oh and did I mention that we have already recouped the price of the engine IN GAS?

We are pleased with the vehicle as peach

And American companies are drowning, not because of the price of the vehicles, but because they are way behind the power curve as to what consumers want or feel they need


As to being broke, trust me, we are not that much better than you... but here I am going to give you some advise that you probably have never been given

Seat down, write everything, and I mean everything you spend on for a month. You'd be surprised what you can cut.

And yes, we SAVE

We MUST have a low-end market to support the high (>$20000) end. If the low end still burns gas, and we make 10 of them to 1 hybrid, WE LOSE.

I make about 30% more than the average ($12-$15/hour) service worker: I can't buy a $17,000 BEETLE. I go NOWHERE but work these days and the commute is 17 miles one way.

Anyway you slice it, we can't support the HYBRIDS without the latest version of an ESCORT.

and I have quite a bit of savings in the bank

As somebody else put it to you, it is about spending priorities

I also make a point to HAVE savings for emergencies.

but if you need to know

We have a business that has not broken even yet, and my husband is in that category of service workers

Try a couple of surgeries, losing your healthcare and your job, selling a house in the current market and a hybrid might as well be the space shuttle.

And "spending priorities" is a little snarky. I have no new cars, no new toys, and a mortgage with no savings. It happens a lot more than you think, and you didn't mention kids, I was divorced with 3, and married into another.

and why do you think I am religious about paying Tricare?

As to surgeries, you are opening the other can of worms, we need to nationalize health care with a single payer national program.

But the point I made still stands

There are people out there making service jobs and sill able to save. Few, I will you grant you that, but partly it is truly a matter of priorities

I used to laugh when my dad told me that when growing up... but he is a wise man....

The wage disparity, healthcare etc are NOT GOING TO BE FIXED SOON.

You know what? I BELIEVE the crash is coming. That's why my basement is full of food and I'm putting up wind generators and wood burning furnaces in the middle of town.

If it is coming?

I agree with you, it is coming, but not just because of the car industry

We do NOT make anything in this country anymore

Oh and will add one think, The New Deal would have never happened if the Great Depresion never happened, perhaps national health will not happen if we do not have a great depresion, not wishing for one, but think about it

Every month you stick a bit of cash into an interest bearing account, a CD, something like that you get a little interest on. You keep adding to that every month. And in a few years, you have enough for a new car:shrug: I've never taken out a loan for a car, it's a sucker's move. Soon as I buy a new car, I start building my nestegg all over again:shrug: Now this won't work if you're one of these people who have to have a new car every three years. That's foolish anyway. I have had all of my cars last at least ten years, most have gone on for more than that, up to twenty years for my '87 Chevy Nova(granted, that's not our everyday driver, but it still excels in snow).

Pay cash up front for your car unless utterly absolutely necessary. Anything else is foolish.

Oh, and before you asked, most of my life I've made thirteen dollars or less per hour.

after hubby left the navy... but I am building that nest to get the replacement to the truck

Just like you, my dad taught me that trick... you do NOT take a lona for big ticket items, unless it is a house obvioously

it is about priorities

SOMEONE has to BUY THEM.

Escort, not a particularly great car, sold MILLIONS. I see 1997 and earlier Saturns all over the place. Why? Because they were and are AFFORDABLE.

If you can't sell it, you're wasting your time and our resources.

If you want to sell cars, you have to sell MILLIONS of them, and people don't make enough money to buy Hybrids.

Which Hybrids are prices very much within that category.

I also got a nice tax deduction the year I bought it.

The car I traded in was a 1992 civic with 158,000 miles on it which was spewing out horrible pollution.

People do buy them. People also buy new non-hybrid cars. Some people can afford them.

The auto industry cannot survive making SOME cars, and if it dies, the depression will not be believable.

You have to sell 10 Whatevers to sell 1 $25,000 Hybrid. Fact.

to 20K, I know we did it.

And they are not out of step with cars IN THEIR CLASS

In the comming years I expect them to go into smaller vehicles that are also cheaper

but US automakers are concentrating on other things. There are tons of people who aren't buying cars who could if cars for them were available. Or, if they were paid better, they could afford more expensive cars. But what people are being paid doesn't line up with what they're being sold.

I couldn't understand why Ford stopped making them. They were really popular. Maybe they figure if the more affordable cars aren't around, people will have to step up to the next more expensive level?

And that you'll make that money back and more in fuel savings, I would say that somebody(s) is buying them:shrug:

And it looks like hybrids are off to a pretty decent start, even compared with the starting years of the Escort. Last year's sales were 251,000,<http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/sales_of_hybrid.html> fairly comparable with the start of the Escort, which only sold 600,000 units the first two years it was out there<http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,925794,00.html>

And compared to many other popular conventional models, hybrids are actually doing quite well. The premier year of the Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni saw 189,000 units being sold. <http://wikicars.org/fr/Dodge_Omni>

Why are you so down on hybrids? They are, in the long run, more economical than conventional cars. Yes, their upfront costs is a couple-three thousand more, but your fuel savings more than make up for that. And you, being conscious of the environment as you are, should realize that they are much cleaner than conventional cars:shrug:

So many people I know just simply don't have enough money to buy anything. They buy old cars because they can't afford anything else, and then the cars break down and they can't afford to get them fixed. In order to benefit from the cost being made up in the long run, you have to have the money up front in the first place, or you have to be able to afford the payments.

Then frankly they probably can't afford a new car of any kind to begin with:shrug:

What is for sale is too expensive for most people. There isn't a new car within their price range. So they have to buy used cars, no matter how inefficient or bad for the environment they are, and try to keep them running. Either people need to be paid better, or cheaper cars should be available. Or both. Henry Ford's original plan was to make a car that every family could afford. What happened to that idea? The VW was also a car that was made specifically to be affordable. It would do more for the environment to have fuel efficient cheap cars available for lots and lots of people than to have a few people with the money buy hybrids. Or to have cheap fuel efficient cars available, AND hybrids for those who can afford them as well.

I was paying $50.00 A WEEK in gas in my old car. I now spend $22.00 A MONTH on gas. That saves me $2146.00 a YEAR in gas ALONE. Say you have a 4 year loan...the $2136 X 4 = $8544.00 savings. THAT should be added to the price of any non-Hybrid to make a fair comparison. IF you add the $8544.00 to the price of a NON-Hybrid and deduct the $3000 higher price for a Hybrid, the Hybrid is still cheaper in the long run. PLUS...you get a TAX CREDIT of..what was it? up to $3400?? That's $70.83 per year on the 4 year loan you save. I'm also not polluting the earth which is an immeasureable cost savings, IMCPO. My math says:

$2136.00 X 4 = $8544.00

Tax Credit up to $3400.00 divided by 12 = $283.33 divided by 4 (year loan)= $70.83

$8544 - $3000 (higher Hybrid price) = $5544

$5544.00 + $70.83 = $5614.83 ADDED TO THE PRICE OF A NON-HYBRID. This could vary per driver, but not by much.


The Hybrid is not outrageously priced at all by my calculations...in SOME cases, it would cost LESS than a non-Hybrid. This could vary per driver, but not by much.

PLUS...if you buy a Prius, you won't be in the car shop for repairs because Toyota makes VERY reliable cars. That more savings over the years.

Just my worthless 2 cents.

but I am still spending an average of 22 dollars a month (don't drive that far) versus 22 dollars a week with my old Honda

:) In the summer, that same tank of gas will last me 6-7 weeks. He rides his bike, skateboards or walks to where he wants to go in the summer. In the winter (this is my 1st winter with the car) I have to drive him everywhere. Last summer a tank of gas lasted 6-7 weeks because I drive less.

note the *crickets* from the OP.

and will get up to 100 mpg.

My friends who own Prius now are NOT wealthy-far from it, in fact. Yet they are exceedingly happy with their cars.

it will take at least 20 years for the class of cars of today to reach their life cycle..how many suv`s will be dumped into the discount/pay here type dealers in 5-10 years? these are the only cars that at least 1/3 of the working class can afford. there is no way i`ll ever be able to afford a new car so i just buy cars that i can rebuild for less that 3-4 thousand dollars. right now it`s an 86 crx with no rust-35-40 miles to the gallon for about 2500 dollars.

n/t

40+MPG. 125,000 miles. bought for $800.

I wish your Saturn long life and low maintainence :hi:

Right now it's the world's biggest and highest mileage 2 cycle. That needs to stop.

28+ MPG and he's on it hard all the time.

When cars first came out, only the rich had them as well until Henry Ford had his vision of making it possible for everyone to afford one. Fun fact: He even went to Edison, wanting him to create an electric motor so cars wouldn't have to use gas. Edison promised one within a year. (Ooops)

Anyway, as the technology advances, prices will drop. I do agree with you on the needed sea change though.

TlalocW

Nice little car, too... with a great warranty.

It'll be nice when the price for hybrids drops so that average working-class people can afford them, but until then there are some regular vehicles that get great mileage, so...

And the answer is because they're making Escalades and Hummers when people need Rios.

I don't know what small business you're starting, but my bet is you'll get less traffic in the next depression.

30% unemployment in 1979 was brutal: I lived through it, barely. You might be living off just your SO's service job if just GM dies.

My hope is that they'll wake up and start making cars people can afford and get themselves back into that market. We have a pretty empty GM plant here in town and plenty of out-of-work people ready to fill it, too.

but Management has made some really lousy decisions into what they produce and how.

Sorry, but Hummers don't sell too well, neither do escalades

In the 1970s they made the same bloody mistake and it took them oh five years to catch up and start making cheaper product

Perhaps, since you work in the industry, you can explain to me why they have fallen into the same damn hole twice

RICH M*THERF*CKERS running everything and getting a tax cut for it. My new boss has an anti-Hilary cartoon on his door and smokes Cuban Cigars at $50 a pop.

What the hell ELSE is wrong with this shithouse country?

No way I'm shelling out $20,000 for something that's A.) Foreign and B.) Looks like something Glenda the Good Witch would fly in on (a bubble).

and you will quickly notice that the engine and the vehicle was assembled in Monterrey, Mexico, or in Canada

Now your toyota (hybids are the exception since the engine is built in Japan and the car is assembled here) are built in the US

That is why Toyota is now running Cars in Nascar


Nothing against people getting good jobs, but it is a common fallacy by many to think that if the car is a Chevy, it is made in Detroit

that has been changing for over a generation... part of that silly globalized economy

I want my next car to have really good gas mileage (the Civic Hybrid is my first choice if I can get it down to my price range), and not a truck or SUV.

True story - a Metrolink station was supposed to be built in my town, in my parent's neighborhood (which could have made it really fucking easy to get there and to some of the places I need to go). The NIMBYs came out in full force to stop it, and this was of course a year before the price of gas escalated. Many of the people in my parent's neighborhood own high-end Mercedes, Lexus, Volvos, and other premium cars (which take premium gas) or they own gas-guzzling SUVs like H2s or Suburbans. I bet they are kicking themselves now!

THEN and only then, will they become important. Unfortunately, we debate here as if we are the sole occupants of the Earth. What about the hundreds of thousands, MILLIONS of spewing gas pigs throughout the world that we can not affect of improve.

THAT is more important than "Hey Missy, let's by a hybrid.


Be well

Every time I hear some rePuke bitch about the auto workers ruining the country, I feel homicidal!

Now I'm a union man
Amazed at what I am
I say what I think
That the company stinks
Yes I'm a union man.

When we meet in the local hall
I'll be voting with them all
With a hell of a shout
It's out brothers out
And the rise of the factory's fall.

Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

As a union man I'm wise
To the lies of the company spies
And I don't get fooled
By the factory rules
'Cause I always read between the lines.

And I always get my way
If I strike for higher pay
When I show my card
To the Scotland Yard
This what I say.

Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

Before the union did appear
My life was half as clear
Now I've got the power
To the working hour
And every other day of the year.

So though I'm a working man
I can ruin the government's plan
Though I'm not too hard
The sight of my card
Makes me some kind of superman.

Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

And I've always wished I was a part.

:cry:

...doesn't make them smart or socially conscious.

I always say, if you like a 40 hour week, thank the Unions.

I bought a hybrid and love it. It costs me slightly less than the average cost of a new vehicle. But yes certainly the future would be better off with a focus on fast, safe and abundant mass transit. Frankly I don't see the conection between wanting affordable mass transportation and hybrid cars. Since as people pointed out the same arguement could be made for non-hybrids as well. The whole thought idea of the thread seems to lack focus.

People with lower incomes usually by cheaper cars, that have good gas mileage compared to the SUV crowd, and are more sensitive to changes in gas prices.

There are plenty solutions out there right now for cheap prices that have gas mileage comparable to the performance of a hybrid. If you buy used, it's actually much better for the environment since you don't have waste resources producing another car, so it's almost like recycling.

Buying an economy car is just as good as buying a hybrid, arguably better since it requires less resources to manufacture.

but there sure seem to be a lot of pickup trucks and SUVs in them. I have a few errands to run and I'll look closer.

The thing is, whatever cars are available new eventually become whatever cars are available used. So if more fuel efficient cars were available new, then eventually they would hit the used market too. If automakers are mainly interested in Hummers, Escalades, etc., then that's what's ending up in the used car markets.

But I agree that used is better than new. If there were a bunch of used Escorts in the lots instead of used GMC Jimmys it would help too.

trucks and SUVs are in the over $20K price range.

A non-growth industry is a dying industry.

Watch a "Repo Show." How many Hyundai's are they hooking? All SUVS and pickups.

Apparently, the expense isn't worth the mileage.

I have been thinking about getting one, but not NEW. I can't bring myself to invest in new cars. So, I'm waiting to see what kind of reliability they have, and then, IF the prices on the used ones come down, I'll consider it.

But I have a general rule - I won't pay over $10K for a car. So they'd have to seriously depreciate. Might not happen.

Unless all of the car companies and Hybrid cheerleaders figure that one out, it's doomsville.

It's a proven engine, while the hybrid is still "new."

Plus, with a diesel you can run biodiesel and be 99% oil free (minus any oil changes).

buy a used fuel efficient car from the mid 1990's... eg a 1995 Geo Metro. Almost the same gas mileage, doesn't require new manufacture. Almost free.

Look at it this way. In order to earn money, natural resources must be consumed. Your pay check itself has a carbon footprint, and some jobs have larger footprints than others. A $500 dollar used car consumes no new resources, and that $500 dollars is a small gouge out of the earth compared to $30k

I currently drive a 2006 Beetle TDI. I had $5K to put down, and I financed out for 72 months.

I also pay $514 in rent each month. I pay a ridiculous $30/month in water/trash/sewage and add between $40 (winter) to $150 (summer) for electricity.

I'm making my first real estate purchase in a couple of months, a condo around $55K. It'll be a two bedroom/1 bath, in a good area.

I also have savings as well.

I don't have cable or internet at home. I only have the cell phone, no land line. I don't eat out a ton, but I can splurge on a night out once every week or two. I clip coupons and shop sales. I've learned to live within my means, and I'm doing well.

Edited to add in, my car was around $21K when I purchased it. I chose diesel over hybrid. And all car prices are negotiable. I get around 42 mpg and fill up every two and a half to three weeks.

Just wonderin'. I just skimmed the report, but all the averages seem higher than that and I didn't see a median figure given.

With a little adjustment from the supplier factories I've worked at with wages capped at 8.75/hour.

It's tough out here.