Cops fatally shoot Nazi memorabilia collector (WA student wearing Nazi uniform and wielding rifle)

Submitted without comment.

Sounds like alcohol was most likely involved. Booze+Guns+College Kids= Tragedy

The only thing ignorant is your response.

The statement of facts is followed by the words "police said". Unless there was a percipient witness to back the police's story, I won't automatically buy it. Unfortunately, the young man is dead and can't tell his version. The cops responded to a report about gunfire. Did the young man actually point the gun at police or merely hold it? Was a warning given or did the cops shoot as soon as they saw the weapon? Was it just the action of one or two hot-headed cops in the group, with the others rallying behind the blue curtain and refusing to betray his unlawful actions? Some cops are very dangerously unstable and welcome opportunities to engage in target practice. Some cops are good but some others do not belong in uniform. Maybe nothing can be done about it, but I for one refuse to automatically accept everything the police says.

Its called embellishment.

We all do it.

Don

Wishing I could hear both sides of the story is making up my mind? It seems to me that you are accusing me of exactly what you have done.

I've been a lawyer for 26 years. In that time, I've cross-examined a number of police under oath. Some of them are honorable, but some of them lie. Some of them completely fold when confronted with contrary evidence. I worked in a law office where one of my associates was a former member of the LAPD who became a lawyer. The man was one of the biggest a-holes I've ever met. He used to talk about the Rodney King event as being routine and that he got a big kick out of beating people up. He was a bit crazy, as he believed in his own ESP powers. He used to tell me stories about how he staked out a bank on one occasion, having a strong feeling that it was going to be robbed. It was robbed on that occasion and he felt that he had a sixth sense about certain situations. That is a dangerous man, who relies on his special feelings more than the reality around him. I represented several cops in work comp cases. One of them was completely insane and had filed a psyche claim for extreme mental stress on the job. The man called the office with death threats and warned us that we had better get him as much money as possible. On the day of his trial, the man went nuts, started screaming in court, and began shaking his cane at the judge.

I have an open mind. I've been called to jury duty on criminal cases and asked if I could be impartial towards the police as a juror who is a lawyer. I think I can. I'm open to hearing all the facts with an open mind, without giving special credence to the police. However, I've seen other jurors on voire dire asked how they would feel about a case where the defendant has a different story than the official police version of events and they slavishly eat up any version that the police have, thinking that the police can do no wrong. They can do wrong and I've seen it. The police represent a cross section of the community. Some of them are arch criminals in uniform.

Some people do not belong on a jury, as they can't seem to bring themselves to hear both sides, especially if the authorities are involved. Most police I've found to be honest servants of the public, but I've also seen lots of stinkers. I consider anything the police say at arm's length and prefer to make up my mind after hearing ALL the evidence. Remember Mark Fuhrmann of the LAPD? The guy who used the "N" word ad infinitum in the tapes he recorded? The tapes in which he described beating up Hispanics for fun? And what about the offcial complaints filed against Fuhrmann, like the complaint filed by a Rabbi when Fuhrman beat him up on a public street in front of his family? Those are the kind of bad and completely unreliable police I'm talking about.

Nazis except when in a large group, usually parading through the streets. I think a history of cops shooting people in funny clothes has been going on since the sixties and I agree, it has to stop somewhere.

In situations confronting people with weapons, YOU DO NOT KNOW if they have blanks, if they are clowning around, or have an intent to use the weapon they are wielding. YOU DON'T.

Now add in human emotion and even the most rational of people might make a mistake.

I feel sorry for cops. Especially when post-situation evidence reveals it's some crank shooting blanks. But the cop didn't know that and what's he supposed to do: Ask the guy upfront and take him at face value? (which wouldn't be very bright on the cop's part.)



But on DU, cops would never get their say. Why? Because people like you are always right; no ands, ifs, or buts about it. :sarcasm:

lot of time in the rural areas of Washington State and Idaho, seeing the occasional person walking around with rifles and camo isn't that unusual. People assume they are going or coming from hunting. So I don't think it was the rifle but the uniform may have upped the "nut with a gun" ante. I still think that police are too trigger happy about shooting people in funny clothes or sometimes what they consider gang colors.

shoot someone in a panic and he dies? I think I will wait for the official investigation. Unless the guy flipped out and had some kind of psychotic siezure, it doesn't fit what others said about his personality.

his family, friends and teachers as "a loving boy who wouldn't hurt a fly."
Don't you read the newspapers?

if this was a hunter it would have ended the same way.

Hell as a medic I got the honor of finding weapons on patients, One of them was a STARTER pistol... the patient was still disarmed and charged, for having a concealed gun.

It's amazing when these cop shootings are investigated that sometimes it's panic on the part of an poorly trained or inexperienced cop pulling the trigger too fast. Of course they lie about it at first. Sometimes they have been caught by a civilian who happened to videotape the incident without them knowing it like the Rodney King beating. They shot a ten year old boy years ago who was pointing a toy gun at them in fun. I'm not saying that what happened wasn't what happened. The circumstances make me want to reserve judgement until more information comes out like forensic evidence.

of the cop, ESPECIALLY if the toy gun had the orange removed

Look, having been in the field I know it is not just the cop's words

And once the drug on wars gets hotter on this side (starting) you will have even more shootings

Reality is that as a rule of thumb you DO NOT aim a firearm at another human being, even in play

empty hands in full view whenever approached by a cop. But people not street wise in city ways may not do the same and actually neither do the cops. I spent time working hand in hand with rural cops and sheriffs in camp grounds up north and they do approach things differently, especially in an environment where there are people openly carrying fire arms legally. However, I am always suspicious when a person not known to be a criminal, a meth lab operator or a gang banger is shot. This is why I think the uniform may have identified him as a gang member of the white supremacist type to the police who acted first before thinking.

as I know that in rural areas those carrying weapons legally are also careful when approached by cops

You tell him to put it down. And when he doesn't, you just stand there and do nothing when he points it at you.

And it's not the cops who responded to a weapon pointing at them.

Not getting shot by cops is a really easy thing to accomplish. When you point a weapon at them and refuse to drop it, the odds do swing heavily against you.

Easily the most sensible and accurate thing posted in this thread.

Yes

Did he obbey orders to drop it?

Sorry... any court will find this to be an appropriate use of force

If someone is pointing a rifle at a cop, and ignores orders to drop the rifle, the cop is trained to nullify the threat quickly and efficiently. If you do not want to be shot by policemen, do not point guns at policemen and ignore their warnings to drop it.

I'm'a shoot his ass. I'm sorry it happened, but the police were absolutely in the right on this one.

I could go either way on it. Obviously, the kid shouldn't be shooting off weapons while drunk (blanks or not). However, the police could've been trigger-happy (if the kid DIDN'T point the weapon at them or misunderstood their orders - who knows)?

:grr:

Did they really think this guy was sober and sane?:grr:

for two officers to fire that many rounds. Remember, this person was reportedly already pointing a gun at the police after being ordered to disarm. Police are entitled to defend themselves in such a situation with lethal force. Sometimes one shot will drop a person to his knees and sometimes it takes many. If drugs/alochol/derangement were involved (as you suggest) his body might not have been reacting normally to being shot.

This is completely in line with training. During firearm training, we did 3 shot drills under 2 seconds, and you sure don't look to see where the round goes. You focus on the sights. Firearms 101

Semiautomatic handguns are fired in bursts, and fired until the threat is neutralized. But hey, suppose the first bullet rips through the aorta, and the second through the heart (unlikely, but hey). The guy's down in a matter of seconds. He's done in two rounds.

But by the time that "matter of seconds" has elapsed, the cops have already fired a three-round burst each. Why?

Suppose that the first bullet goes through the lung, and the second through the liver. The cops holster their guns. The Nazi guy is on drugs, and virtually immune to pain. He aims and shoots his old military rifle, which tears through a cop's vest and through his spine. Now we have a paralyzed cop, and an assailant who has at least a few minutes left on him, and who is probably aiming another shot. Yes, that's much better.

When someone has a gun, you don't play around.

The M4 has a 3 round burst and the MP5 has a 2 round burst. I'm not aware of any current production semi-auto handguns that fire in "bursts". (That would, by definition, no longer be "semi auto")

fire in bursts; the gun is fired by the shooter in bursts. Please don't play semantics over the term "burst."

They are taught to fire 2 or 3 rounds center mass until the threat is neutralized.

David

...makes you wonder what they'd do to the 10 year old with a plastic gun with the orange tip removed...

Giving yourself a chance to survive is the point of self-defense. And yes, when it's a man pointing a rifle at you and refusing lawful orders to stop, it's self defense.

Cops (and soldiers) and trained to shoot to kill, not to wound. They're trained that way because it's a good way to avoid being killed themselves by a drunk person wielding a rifle, regardless of whether or not the drunk person's rifle is loaded with blanks.

Mentally ill people have a real tough go of things. They are misunderstood, isolated, and hated for being nothing more than annoying in most cases.

Unfortunately, pointing a rifle with a bayonet at someone who also has a gun is a bad choice. The problem here is that you only have a split second to react. It does not take very long to pull the trigger on either side.

In most cases, people who are wearing Nazi uniforms and pointing guns with bayonets at police are not "peaceful and loving young men" The Neo-nazi cult (I doubt he was involved with them) is an extremely violent gang.

Generally, I am anti-police in most cases. In this one, I can understand how the mistake was made. This is based on the information already presented, and not necessarily if something more comes out. Quite often you find out damning information later.

... I'd like to know where the tasers were.

and pointed it at me, hell yes I would shoot also. What the hell do people expect the cops to do. Stand there and get shot?
They were called for complaints of weapons being fired. They have no idea if these are blanks, if the people doing the shooting are crazy, on drugs. I think any officer would have done the same under the circumstances.
I don't think it matters what he was wearing. If he wasn't pointing a gun and refused to drop it he would be alive today. This is in no way the fault of the police.

all cases of police-shooting-civilian are not a case of overkill...

hopefully, this will not turn out to be a case of over-reaction...as you say, he was told to drop his rifle, and didn't do it...i wonder what some people think the next step should have been?

the amount of FINGER pressure to pull a trigger and sent a projectile are near-sonic speed toward a target is amazingly minimal...the officers have no wherewithal to 'see if the guy will really shoot at us'...who would?

this is a sad situation, but here, again...what kind of person, in what kind of condition or state, regardless of how he/she is dressed, POINTS A F***ING GUN AT A COP?? What...'he's a good kid, he's just fooling around'...??

to those quick to jump on the over-reaction bandwagon: be glad you haven't faced someone pointing a deadly weapon at you that takes so little effort to send a deadly bullet toward you in an amount of time so short you can't comprehend...there is no time to 'see what he's going to do'...

Maybe seven rounds was a bit much, but I think that they really had no choice but to fire. I really don't understand what they could have done differently (dare I say it - tase him?)

That aside, I do think this is tragic.

They knee jerk and spout stupidity at every turn. It's quite embarrassing really. The cops were 100% justified here, as you said. Just sit back and laugh at the closed minded ignoramuses that claim otherwise.

:yourock:

You are 100% on the ball on the issue.

And you're right about the ignorance and stupidity.


* which is a good thing in some ways, to agree 100% on everything makes people no better than a computer program, doing what it's told.

But I wouldn't laugh at these ignorant folks. They're deserving of pity. And edification, or failing that encouraging them to become what they are ignorant of.

based on a 3 paragraph story. We don't know what happened, so I can't say one way or the other if the police were justified in shooting this man. All I know is that it is sad.

Ask yourself what would happen if the drunk guy was black, and he was on a white guys yard holding a shotgun? Oh those subtle little differences will get you every time.



KC man arrested after gunfire, racial taunts


A Kansas City man was arrested early New Year’s morning after allegedly yelling racist remarks and shooting up his neighbor’s house.

Police were called about 1:15 a.m. to the 7900 block of Chestnut Avenue, where they found Michael W. McCormick, 56, in the neighbor’s front yard. Police said he was intoxicated and armed with a shotgun, a revolver and more than a dozen additional live rounds for each weapon. Officers found another shotgun in his backyard.

The victim, whose front-door glass was broken out, told police McCormick yelled a racial slur, then fired his gun in front of the house.

McCormick later told police he was intoxicated and that the last thing he remembered was leaving his house just before midnight to shoot off his guns.

Regarding the incident at his neighbor’s, he said, “Nope, I don’t remember that at all, but I can believe 200 percent that I did it.” He said he was tired of listening to loud music and honking horns coming from his neighbor’s house at all hours of the night.

After another racist remark, he told police: “I want him to feel real pain and learn that type of (expletive) won’t be happening anymore. And when I get out of jail I’ll start this whole process all over again if I have to, because I’m not going to let him turn my neighborhood into the ’hood.”

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/9624...

big difference.

Stupid move by him, overreaction by the cops. But, they had no idea if the gun was loaded or not.

"excuse me sir, you have a rifle pointed at us with a large bayonet, is it by chance loaded?" "oh, very good sir, could you by chance, stop pointing it at us, we are perplexed at your reaction to our investigation of gunshots being fired. If you were by chance the one firing, is your rather large and intimidating weapon no longer loaded?"

Overact with a gun in your face. Technically they didn't have to order him to drop it. Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy existed. They had every right to act.

I am not saying the police were not justified in their actions, but maybe a little over reactive, though I don't blame them.

In a tense situation where your life seems to be in danger it doesn't make much sense to fire one shot and then wait to see if it did the trick.

I own a shotgun, you only need to use one shot with one of those :)

This is almost sounding like "suicide by cop". The Police were sadly, totally justified in this shoot.

I can't help but feel like they were going for the kill. Why not just one shot to disable the man from shooting? He had no chance of survival.

You don't have time to pick the knee shot if there's a rifle pointed at your head. Maybe the best of the best can process the situation that fast but most are just humans who want to survive their day at work like anyone else.

I've never even been in the same room with a gun, I honestly have no idea. I assume that police aren't carrying automatic weapons that keep on shooting one bullet after the next. At some point they should have realized that he wasn't getting up or shooting anymore. Seven shots just seems like way too many to me.

But I've read a little. I think mmost police issue pistols are semi-auto these days which pretty much means you can empty your clip with 6-15 pulls of the trigger.

seven shots can take about two seconds, perhaps a bit less with a lower-recoil weapon. If somebody's pointing a rifle at me I probably wouldn't wait to check after each round.

Remember two guys were shooting. And it's not like the movies, where once you're hit you go flying or otherwise dramatically react to the first round. Unless he was hit in the head or spinal cord he was probably still mostly vertical by the time the seventh shot was fired.

With a 9mm handgun you can fire that many aimed shots very quickly.

If he pointed the rifle, drunk or not he created that situation.

That round, like any rifle round, will zip right through a bulletproof vest.

shot bursts when attempting to protect yourself.

with a semi-auto pistol. It would only take 2 people about 2-3 seconds. That's all it would take.

Again, I've not been involved with shootings but I do training from time to time and the instructors tell us repeatedly to shoot until you are certain the person is no longer a threat.

Again, according to people who have been there and done that, my instructors say that sometimes people go down with one shot, other times multiple shots go through with almost no apparent effect for a while.

Two officers shooting quickly could easily place seven shot within 2 or 3 seconds.

Its sad, but completely understandable that police fired several times each when faced with a person who had reportedly shot his weapon several times already, failed to comply with direct orders to drop the weapon, and then pointed it at police.

Don't point a weapon at the cops and certainly don't refuse to drop it when ordered. You WILL get shot. And probably killed.

refuse to drop them when ordered. Not a very bright young man. Booze and guns never mix well.

And too many trigger happy police to be sure, but in a case like this I wouldn't dream to second guess them.

"a peaceful and loving young man" who likes to dress as a Nazi and point bayonets at people?

Just a tragic mess all around.

Or suicide by cop.

:eyes:

The cop really had no choice and; at the time of the incident, he had his own life to worry about, orders were not being followed, a gun was pointed at him. He kept asking, and it was possible the kid might have responded with the gun. Nor did the cop know they were not blanks. A trained cop does not ask "Hey, are those blanks?" No. Only idiots think that. Cops assume, rightly so, the gun-looking device is a fully functional gun that might maim or kill.

I am so sick of anti-cop losers coming up with their baseless and unjustified opinions. and this time I will spam; they should train and become cops. Maybe then they will understand. (or maybe not)

Shots reported, a man dressed like a Nazi pointing a bayonet-fixed rifle and refusing to drop his weapon? The seven shots may or may not have been excessive. I'm curious if the cops were rushed, what was said, etc.

Also, I'm a HUGE WWII buff and also have some memorabilia, but I don't dress up like a Nazi and play War.

But going around wearing military gear, much less firing weapons into the air, isn't very bright. Especially these days. Even if they were blanks. And if the policeman tells you to drop the weapon, please do it on the first order and don't make them repeat. The policeman doesn't know, at that time, what's going on and has to decide, within a miniscule period of time, if his own life might be at stake. Then add in human emotions and it's tragic all around.

He looks like an intelligent kid.

The article has a ring of truth to it.

But the anti-cop people have no merit in being haughty. They should try being policeman.

Most rifle rounds from battle rifles or medium sized game hunting rifles would.

Its sad. This kids sounds like one of several of my friends. But once you fail to comply with orders to drop the weapon and then point it at the police, its perfectly understandable for the police to defend themselves.

according to the story.

All 3 existed, Officers had every right to defend themselves and others.

Was he auditioning for a part in Springtime for Hitler?

Stamps or coins seems like better things to collect.

Don

past is extremely disturbing. It's the wearing it part that crosses my line, especially when it's described as ..."dressing up and having fun." How does one 'have fun' when wearing a nazi uniform if one has any knowledge of history?

I collect old radios. Why would I do such a thing?:shrug:;)

I would go with the stamps or coins for the size aspect alone. I have a bad back.

Don

...not bad for boat anchors, eh?:hi:

...that dude shoulda dropped the weapon.

Jeez, I had friends who were raving eccentrics in 6th grade. And they're just as eccentric now as they were then.....

Please tell me DU because I just don't know anymore.

...just ask Amadou Diallo. Oh, wait... you CAN'T ask him, because the police MURDERED HIM!:mad:

These two episodes had nothing to do with on another.

Diallo: no gun

This dude: one of these



Kind of hard to conceal or mistake for something else, especially when the bayonet is affixed.

...of which I've been a victim of.:grr:

by bringing up a scenario that has nothing to do with your OP.

Any opinion either way is speculation. I speculated, and so did you.:hi:

The dead guy hasn't been able to tell his side of the story...

Gonna let you in on a secret: Cops lie too.

Cops are allowed to shoot people who threaten their lives. They have a right to go home to their families just like you and I do.

This is what I'm talking about an agenda, you post about some Nazi loving punk who likes to play with guns with "no comment", when really you expected a thread full of people shitting on the police. When you didn't get what you wanted, you threw out Diallo, which has NOTHING to do with this situation to try to find a place for your self righteous hatred of the police.

So, hide the thread. It's DU - I'm allowed to post what I want to (within the rules, of course), as you are.

Of COURSE the cops are allowed to defend themselves. We don't know if it was necessary for the police to do so, yet. We're taking the word of the police, who, incidentally, COULD have motive to lie about whether the kid aimed the gun at anyone. We only know one side.

Are the cops ever wrong? Yes. It's starting to look real bad in this one http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/03/BAI9153CBO.DTL&tsp=1

Are the cops Always wrong? No. This story looks like the cops did exactly what they should have done. At best the kid was stupid...at best.

Broad brushes are not useful. I feel bad for the kids family, and for the cops who had to kill him, but I don't feel bad for this kid. It was a stupid thing to do.

Sad all around.

:wtf:

PB

you don't ALWAYS have to be holding a gun to get shot.

That's it.

PB

Yes, it's so outrageous that someone would shoot him.

(As for seven times? That's one three-shot volley from two guns, plus an extra one in there. If none of the shots hit the brain or spinal cord, he'd still be standing by the time they stopped shooting.)

Some(one who looked like a) nut on a school campus with a gun gets shot before he shoots somebody else.

While a tragedy, as all loss of life is, still a refreshing change as news stories go.

Obviously the poor bastard hadn't studied enough of the Nuremberg Trials -- he should have followed fucking orders.

dumb ass nazi punk...

hope he didn't get a chance to breed before his genes were removed from society...

If you want to go on living.

Kinda changes the whole story huh?

Firing rounds (blanks but kinda hard to know) into the air and pointing weapon at officers.

I would say it was just a poor choice of conveying the story except AFTER the snip the OP included how peaceful he was.

Then has the balls to say "submitted without comment". Your "comment" was intention misrepresentation of the story. Hell you would have fit in well in the Bush administration. Too bad you didn't find your calling in misrepresenting stories 8 years sooner.

:eyes: