America will not change without the truth. America needs to hear

from you about what you know of the last 8 years. We cannot allow politicians from either party to sweep all of it under the rug and compromise on unAmerican ideas such as detention without charge, spying on citizens without a warrant, torture, no accountability on the lies that led to war and the barbarism that occurred such as the whole truth of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and black hole sites as well as "shock and awe". I cannot accept it and "move on" as history is rewritten before our eyes into "noble cause". So no, I will not shut up and sit down. I will not go forward without an accounting silently. Fight me if you must, but it just isn't in me. I'm still going to push.

:patriot:

:thumbsup:
Our work isn't over.

K&R

we run into that have no idea.

changed things. Voting does not work. Did you vote for civil rights? Did you vote for equal rights? Did you vote for womens right to vote? Did you vote to stop the Vietnam war? The truth means nothing if we don't act on it!

it, we will continue to lose.

It would much better in both the long and short runs if our side has a leader in power.

We'll see.

Class rape.

Class warfare is where the attacked class fights back instead of acting as collaborators in their own exploitation.

Count me in.
Those that abuse power and privilege should not be permitted freedom to do it again.
By ANY administration,be it future or past.There will be no justice unless we demand it. And if our demands are dismissed,it may require our actions.
Remember if THEY sweep it under the rug again, THEY should pay the consequences of THEIR own stubborn selfish DENIAL.
The tree of liberty grows when watered with the blood of tyrants,that was said for a reason,people..

The American people are appallingly uninformed due to the degradation of our news media.

JFK assassinated under odd circumstances, not least of which his apparent assassin shot dead while in police custody on TV? Move on!

MLK, Jr. and RFK assassinated under odd circumstances? Move on!

Nixon elected with the promise of a "secret plan" that turns out to be illegal bombing of other nations? Never mind! Move on!

Watergate? Shut up and sit down! Those people are being pardoned because we're all going to move on!

Iran-Contra? stfu!

Um, 911? Why do you hate America?!

where are the WMD? You wanna go to gitmo?! Shut up and move on!

Abu Ghraib? Torture? Habeus corpus? Illegal wiretaps? Don't make me come down there!!!

His legacy is at stake.

It is bad enough that the US government goes around murdering people all over the planet and covering it up, masquerading it as justifiable. But when they began to mass-murder US citizens, blame it on someone else, cover it all up and use that as a pretext for undermining the constitution and invading other nations -- I think it is time to say ENOUGH IS E-FUCKING-NOUGH.

I know, some still don't get it about 9/11. Too bad. They did it. Why would any one think they would lie to us about EVERYTHING else but NOT that? Give me a break. No investigation, no accountability, just cover-up and BS. What we have with that is nothing less than a suspect. Means, motive, opportunity.

You know that ol' saying about the consent of the governed? Well, you've damn well lost mine.

I'm with you and everyone else who keeps hope alive. I'm with everyone who fights in bringing out the truth.

Something like a "Warren Commission", a "Church Committee", And when we get the same results we always got, then what?

My understanding is dim... but I think (in general) a commission = white wash whereas a special prosecutor = possibility of charges and a trial/verdict.

... before he does anything to take on the "big machine" in Washington directly, and still could get swallowed up by it if he's not careful.

And in a way, having the grass roots be able to "tell" him what to do IS the way Democracy is supposed to work, so it is actually an admirable way of governing, done right...

The problem now though is it is DAMN HARD AS HELL for the grass roots to be heard now by both the government and its people with the media the way it is today that stands in the way of average people being heard, and instead gives us packaged propaganda that support the elites' agenda instead.

One area I EXPECT Obama to tackle without necessarily us "speaking up" to ask him to do something about it is to restore the balance and diversity as well as public access to media and communications, so that America can be more informed on the issues of the day, and therefore provide an "educated" set of feedback (that's hopefully measured in a useful way), to help him get the voices of America to tell him what they want him to do. He can even say that's WHY he has the justice department actively breaking up media monopolies, etc. or whatever other means he uses to fix it again. He can come out and be honest with the people and say that it is broken, and he can't work for us *blind*, and that he needs to restore communications with us before he moves forward.

Another issue for him to tackled head on would be public campaign financing as well, which also gets in the way of grass roots democracy working properly too, but minimally he needs to go after fixing the media now.

K&R!

Obama is president of ALL of the people, so we must include liars. That makes it pretty difficult to get the truth out. But we don't want to alienate liars, and those who have fallen for their lies, so we can't speak the truth.

We must expose them and that alone will alienate them.

I hope you realize that I was not being serious in my post, but was lampooning the "centrists" among us.

I don't know of we need to get rid of politicians that lie to the people, or rather that may not be the best way to look at this. There is a massive conspiracy of silence, a pattern of failure to tell the truth, all through political circles at all levels including right here.

The lies, the comforting and reassuring illusions, are very seductive and we are all vulnerable to them.

:)

we need to be pain in the a$$es to our senators and reps, we should not let this be swept under the rug. The only person who is on the side of the American people is Dennis Kucinich, just a suggestion we should make our feelings known to him and that some American people are not going to let this one go. We can't let this one go after the sleazy remarks of Cheney.

We should all make the effort to sign any petition he requests when he prepares to take the floor.

there are only a few who would listen to us, maybe Boxer too, and the Black Caucus leaders.

The past eight years have been a carefully crafted campaign of "shock and awe" and rape and steal....

I'd further suggest that junior's administration was the culmination of evenst that began in the Kennedy-Nixon administrations. Look at the players involved and look at how far back they've had their dirty little paws in out food bowl. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Baker, and Bush Sr. (the only man I've heard of from the time who cannot recall his exact whereabouts on the day JFK was assassinated, but remembers (because it has been documented) that he was meeting with Bin Laden brothers on 9/11. Then we have Sr's spawn who was the ultimate puppet, making the Alzeheimer-sufering Reagan look coherent by contrast. This is not some coincidence of timing or circumstance. This was a planned campaign that dated back decades. We just had the "benefit" fo being alive to see the culmination of the largest criminal conspiracy in modern government.

If the American people were forced to see what "we" have done in the past several years, they could not believe it. To believe and understand what has happened would cause everyone to have to make the decision that we are not in fact the greatest country on the planet, but in fact little more than a highly organized junta that will murder it's own people, slaughter innocents, torture, et cetera et cetera.

"we" need to perpetuate the myth of "America as the great shining beacon on a hill" blah blah that Reagan used to spout from his foggy brain.

are still to come, they lie in the future, while for some of us here, the series of shocks administered these past few decades were enough to wake us up so we could witness the unfolding horror with open eyes.

Interestingly, the Greek word Apocalypse literally means "the lifting of the veil".

Neither am I.

I preach it to anyone who will listen and it continues to amaze me how unreceptive otherwise intelligent people can be to the truth. They just don't believe it when I speak of renditions, torture, domestic spying, unnecessary wars, etc. My boss told me the other day I should talk to "real soldiers" instead of listening to talk radio. :eyes: He's someone I respect, but he's off the wall on his politics.

It's because all those shiny new powers will stay in place. Domestic spying? It's useful to us! Pre-emptive war? Sure! Torture? Of course! Looting both in and out of country? It's the American way!

Nope, I'd rather die than accept it all.

I expect that we will see (and are already seeing a little) more willingness of certain MSM to tell some of the story.

On the political side, I think I would rather see this used as leverage to advance a more common sense liberal agenda than to see it devolve into frog marching these fuckers before tribunals. On that last point, I am not against criminal action if the clear cut evidence is there for all to see in some cases, but I don't expect there to be a lot of that.

One of the things that got these people elected in the first place was the way the GOP was able to mainstream the "it's just politics" meme.

most americans have their fingers in their ears screaming this mantra. They dont want to know.

we need a REAL investigation that addresses ALL of the evidence and leaves nothing out, no matter how distressing or incriminating the implications . . .

none of us know what really happened on 9/11 -- but we can be damn sure that the "official" story is NOT an accurate, truthful, and comprehensive explanation of the events of that day . . . there is too much evidence left unexamined, too much eyewitness testimony excluded, and too many conclusions based on faulty, unscientific, untruthful, and/or incomplete information . . .

please do NOT turn this thread into a discussion of what did or did not happen on 9/11 -- there's another forum for that . . . I just want to emphasize the need for a real investigation that will search for the truth no matter where that search may lead . . . and a report to the American people (and the people of other nations) that presents all of the evidence and the best possible conclusions based on that evidence, rather than some whacked out conspiracy theory (which is what we have now) . . .

We are facing unbelievable odds monetarily.

We must reverse the propaganda machine that is so effective in convincing the masses (lemmings) to run off the cliff.

We must gain control of Congress. Congress no longer represents us, only lobbyists.

But I don't believe we can do these things w/o massive civil disobedience. I am not advocating that, but can't see any other way.
Those in power will continue to bleed us dry at an increasing rate until we object. The current political system has no mechanism for our objections.

And again,and again, and again, it's time for the Midnight Ride.:dem: :kick: :yourock:

:thumbsup:

It happens every time some repuke says they support Obama, all the pukes crimes are forgotten and the criminal is invited to rob America again.

:rofl:

these dumb hillbilly neocon, murdering thugs, he will begin with a failed administration, no matter how much good he can succeed at. These thugs will go to the mattresses and plan the next even bigger heist and a new and more devastating raid on the constitution and the rest of the world and in the long run we will end up even worse than we are today just like the last time they were swept under the carpet.

I agree completely. Nixon got off and we got Reagan delaying the hostages' release from Iran and that lead to Iran-Contra, drugs and death squads in Central America. Bush I blanket pardons everyone and that lead to the impunity of malicious impeachment of Clinton. Getting away with all of this lead to the theft of TWO elections and gave us a virtual fascist dictatorship.

If we do not hold hearings, convict and imprison these high level criminals, our next rethuglican president could make Hitler and Stalin look like rank amateurs. I'm dead serious and do not consider it hyperbole in any shape or form.

however, with obama's embrace of colin powell, we know where he stands and where this is going. he has already failed.

:thumbsup:

on anyone in Washington paying attention. It's going to take some serious protesting / riots / anarchy .. for anyone to listen. Pandora's box has been opened for the looters on the Hill - it will take something monumental to get it closed again.

... constantly about the crimes that have gone before, and in protest against any continuation of Bush policies into the new administration.

Obama has the education and intelligence to know where to go. I fear he is already compromising his high ideals (as stated) for reasons we mere underlings can't fathom because there's a degree of secrecy we can't penetrate.

The pen is mightier than the television, and we must use it! I fear that no matter what the medium, the sleeping American public will not awaken until they can't pay the rent and there's no food in the fridge. That's starting to happen, and it's terrible to look at that as our best hope, but that may be what it takes. However, bands of protestors all across the country, demanding help, may be just the perfect excuse to declare martial law and confine the Great Unwashed to places where they can't cause trouble.

For now, yes, we have to speak out! Maybe the play will have a different ending than the one I just described!

The Past is the textbook of tyrants; the Future the Bible of the Free. Those who are solely governed by the Past stand like Lot's wife, crystallized in the act of looking backward, and forever incapable of looking before. ~Herman Melville, White Jacket

Very sad, but true.

changed things. VOTING DOES NOT WORK. Did you vote for civil rights? Did you vote for equal rights? Did you vote for womens right to vote? Did you vote to stop the Vietnam war? THE TRUTH MEANS NOTHING IF WE DON'T ACT ON IT! If you are not willing to get out there and march on the street or on Washington then STFU!

wake up. More bridges collapse, lines for groceries, brown outs, black outs, etc. They are not listening. They don't want to hear. They can't deal with the truth. They can't handle the truth.

I'm with you mmonk. I will continue to speak out at every opportunity, to write to the editor, to go to demonstrations, to do whatever I can, where ever I am, in whatever way that I can. I will encourage others to do the same.

I belong to a local group that shows progressive movies for free, along with free pizza every month. This month we offer "The End of America," based on Naomi Wolf's book. I live in one of the most conservative religious right areas in the country and our audience grows larger each month, though never as large as it should.

I'd like to see a new monkey wrench gang on a national scale.

http://www.wisecountyissues.com Profit comes ahead of People in America !

How can we get the message to them when CorpAmerica owns the media?

*but* sweep everything under the rug. Their self-interest lies in protecting the status quo, there's no profit for them in truth. The only way the System sustains itself is through fooling most of the people all of the time.

Letters and phone calls to our so-called representatives don't mean shit -- that's been amply demonstrated hundreds of times over, throughout the past 8 years.

Street demonstrations mean nothing -- if the corporate media chooses not to notice and report, the demonstration never happened. Even dramtic acts of civil disobedience will be spun to look like the acts of cranks and criminal anti-social elements, so that public sympathy is skillfully steered toward taking the side of Authority and dead-set against the activists.

Americans are inculcated from birth to defer to Authority. To wake them up from their television-induced trance of believing in the Myth of America will take hard, long-slog work. Nothing will change until the minds of our fellow citizens are changed -- and that will take concerted, relentless work on the ground, building concrete models of ways of living and thinking outside of the System.

We cannot look to the System to implement change. Its sole imperative is to maintain itself. We have to build change from the ground up outside of it.

sw

They can't handle the truth. It will have to get much worse before they are jolted from their stupor.

If there is no justice wrought on at least a few points, america is done.

A truth I know:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=49624&mesg_id=49624&pages=


These criminals need to do some time at the very least.
Perhaps the new "leader" knows this.

If they haven't been hit by any one of the horrors this admin has dished out these 8 years then they will play it safe and be willing to move on.

When have we ever done a thing to stop the criminals , they tell us what they want us to know and call anyone else a conspiricy nut.

It's 45 years since JFK was gunned down and we will never know what happened and most just moved on and let it be.

I really doubt this new admin will do one damn thing other than tell people to move forward and look at the bright future ahead they claim will be. Biden has already said as much.

If 90% of the people will fight for all of the truth then we might just finally have it. To tell us anything is a government secret when it involves the people most of all is the way they control and continue to do the damage they have done.

I'm with you 100 percent!

I get the cold shoulder if I try to say what I'm worried about or try to clue them in. Only a tiny per cent of people I know will listen a little. They don't connect with history in the making which is really destruction of our country as we knew it. It makes no difference that every minute is a dramatic and drastic destruction and demolition. You can tell the pain is coming on when they stop you and run away - and that is even with the softest of voice explaining with as much coherency as possible.

It's like we need to take an ad out some place (not a PNAC partner network or paper or magazine). The ad must be written and addressed to Obama and Congress. We can start by asking them to recognize what we know about our downfall. I am afraid he and his staff are going to set a very high bar. It has to have a stabbing list of what has happened and what we won't allow to continue.

We must quantify where we want to get back to which can be very confusing. We must show people how the country was directed backward to take down the New Deal, Unions, voting and even to the Magna Carta by damaging Habeus Corpus. Reversing the reverse and getting in gear to go forward again is hard for people to get. They avoid knowing what we have set out to learn.

History in the making has involved controlling us with lies, distortions, reality flips and twists, ultra confusion, fear, downgrading, loss, trauma, secrecy, dirty tricks by adults in Congress, heart breaking sadness and most of all - theft in trillions of way - monetary, jobs, limbs, organs, peace of mind and even the most basic of basics for living, especially affecting children.

We need to get others on board, but they have raised a wall around themselves and have a fear of knowing because they think it's going away. They are stil where we were - believing that our representatives in Washington were taking care of us so we should shop, watch sports, pay attention to celebrities and just plain work at living as usual.