In-State Tuition For Illegal Aliens?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigtuition5-2009jan05,0,3248207.story

California's highest court is poised to be the next battleground in the debate over benefits for illegal immigrants as the justices have agreed to hear arguments on the constitutionality of a state law allowing undocumented students to pay in-state tuition at public colleges and universities.

Martinez vs. Regents of the University of California began with a lawsuit filed in Yolo County in 2005 by out-of-state students and their parents. The lawsuit alleges that education officials are violating federal law by granting in-state tuition to illegal immigrants while not offering the same lower fees to students from outside California. "U.S. citizens should have at least the same rights as undocumented immigrants," said one of the plaintiffs, Aaron Dallek, an Illinois native who graduated from UC Berkeley in 2006.

For the 2008-09 school year, out-of-state undergraduates pay about $28,600 to attend a UC school, compared with about $8,000 for students who qualify for in-state tuition. Out-of-state undergraduate students at Cal State campuses pay on average $10,000 more than in-state students. At community colleges, California residents pay $26 per unit, while out-of-state students pay between $140 and $170.

Cora Orta, an illegal immigrant from Mexico who is a senior at UCLA, said she could not afford the school if she had to pay the higher tuition. As it is, the in-state fees are a stretch, she said. She is not eligible for loans, so she works part time, crams into a studio apartment with four other students and constantly applies for scholarships. "It's been the difference between attending college or not attending," Orta said of the in-state tuition.

More at the link

Ms. Orta, above, needs a reality check. She claims in-state tuition "(has) been the difference between attending college or not attending". Actually, it has been the difference between her attending a top-tier school like UCLA, or attending a different institution. Costs certainly played a role in my college selection. If I could have paid in-state tuition at any college in the country, my choices would have been dramatically expanded.

The article makes it sound like the students came here on their own. I suppose that happens, but the purpose of the legislation was to make education available to good high school students who happen to be here illegally because their parents brought them. I.e. it isn't the kids fault. I guess they should just go "home" to the country they barely know, though.

If out of state students can't get the tax-supported college discount, then illegal aliens shouldn't either.

ETA: That's not saying I don't think college should be more affordable, but I do think people should live within the rules.

They're criminals, right?

end up legal. Xenophobes never get that it's not black and white simple.

One of whom was a 17 year old high school student who was dumped below the border by the authorities. She had no money and no relatives in Mexico to contact and she can't come back to her family. Far as I know she is still in Mexico. She grew up in Phoenix. When it happened, I swear to god there were idiots here applauding it.

are the same kind of jerks that claim it's a person's own fault for growing up to be a poor undereducated and unemployable adult when they grew up in poverty with lousy parents, but yet think it's "merit" for someone from a well-heeled family that does well. Who gripe about any programs to help the poor and say they should "earn their way" but then look at you with shock should you suggest that maybe a kid shouldn't inherit a million dollar trust fund either, because they ought to "earn their way" too. Sadly, there seems to be a lot of them out there.

for a student visa - that is the law abiding procedure, isn't it?

Because every kid who was brought here as a 2 year old has a place they can stay in their native country while they wait out the visa process. Oh, and they are all fluent in their native language and will easily be able to get jobs to support themselves. :eyes:

In KS where this is a reality the kids have been here since they were babies.

Something the nitwits who accuse them of "jumping the line" fail to understand.

If they were brought here as a child then the US is their "home". You are saying, I think, that they should be deported to their parents' home country, that they may know little or nothing of.

Try to imagine being in that situation yourself for just a few minutes.

Some people really just don't get it.

That was, I swear to god, a comment on an article in AZ Republic about teenagers (who'd lived in the Phoenix area most of their lives) who were deported by overzealous INS agents. Just dumped in Mexico with nowhere to go.

know little of nothing of."

:nopity:

Um...you mean like their PARENTS experienced when they snuck in here? :rofl:

their parents experienced being deported by sneaking in here? :shrug:

I MEANT that I have heard that lament before; that the "poor children" will be forced to go to a foreign country that they know nothing about. Well, it didn't seem to stop their parents from doing so, now did it? And unlike what many people try to put forth, many of these children DO know Spanish. After all, their parents may not speak any English at all and their kids sometimes have to act as interpreters.

She claimed that her son couldn't go to Mexico because of that very reason mentioned. When asked about her son's father, she refused to say (because he was a legal resident, perhaps, and her sympathy would be lessened?). In the end, she got deported and LEFT her son with friends in Chicago. I couldn't believe she would leave a 7-year-old with other people, but I figured that it was probably hard for her and she just wanted to do what was best for him and give him a better life. In a week, her son had joined her in Mexico, where they both live today. He is a legal citizen since he was born here, so he can come back when he's older. But little boys need their mommies.

By the way, it also burns me when I hear this "breaking up families" stuff. How about undocumented workers holding off on starting families when they have illegal status?

:eyes:

:shrug:

Keep posting from that ivory tower of yours!:fistbump:

:eyes:

a California high school.

return legally and pay the same tuition as out-of state students.

US as a baby then grew up here?

illegal immigrants going to college at a lower cost than out-of-state residents (who are quite likely NOT illegal immigrants?) If the student is here illegally, then that student should (a) not receive the benefit of lower tuition than a student from a neighbor state and (b) apply for a student visa and then pay the same tuition as that other neighbor state student.


Should illegal immigrants who perchance live in neighboring states go to Calif and be given the same lower rate as the student in the article? They are just as illegal as the one in the article. And if not, aren't they being discriminated against by virtue of being an illegal resident Arizona rather than an illegal resident of Calif.?illegally rather t

they aren't residents of the state. Pretty simple, really. Depending on the state, they may be eligible for in-state tuition at their own state schools.

state cannot get in-state tuition, but an undocumented immigrant who has been in that state, illegally, is eligible by virtue of an extended period of illegal residence.

It is amazing how that pesky term, illegal, keeps popping up.

out-of-state residents are not, though they can take certain steps to establish themselves as state residents.

Students who were brought to this country as minor children of undocumented immigrants are eligible for in-state tuition if they attended high school in state for three years, graduated from a state high school, and sign an affidavit declaring that they will apply for permanent status as soon as they are eligible.

Just can't seem to get my head around the illegality of it all. And it is condoned.

That got me going..

:rofl:

We're talking about people who are already here illegally...

:rofl:

You shouldn't put down Caucasian folks like that. They can't help it if their family illegally immigrated here across the Atlantic Ocean and slaughtered millions of Americans. Cut them some slack.

then wouldn't that logic support a "round 'em all up and deport 'em all" strategy? I think that's unfeasible.

Most have lived in state for many years, more than long enough to otherwise qualify as residents. You too can move to California, meet the residency requirements, and qualify for in state tuition rates too.

:rofl:

I have 4 relatives (one of them is my father) who are all naturalized citizens. My uncle came here illegally, when he fled Iran. All of them worked themselves through college, and all of them did so on visas. If the girl cannot get proper documentation - I'm sorry, she shouldn't get a break on tuition that is funded through a tax system. It's unfortunate, I'm not knocking her dilemna - but if other students are held to the rules, then she should be as well. Get a student visa, get on the books - start the legal process of becoming a citizen. She's not going to be able to do shit with her degree after college without a work visa - so why not start the paperwork now?

Currently, children who immigrate to the United States from another country can only obtain legal status through their parents; there is no independent method to accomplish this. Through many quirks in immigration law, many individuals brought here as children remain without permanent status, despite having parents or spouses who are citizens or legal permanent residents.<2><3> If a child is brought into the country illegally there is no method of becoming a legal resident. Returning to their country of birth would not guarantee a path to legal status. Attempts to come back legally are often difficult, with roadblocks such as ten year bans on re-entering the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Background

You simply have to maintain residence there for a certain time. A child who was brought to Arizona as a 2 year old and has lived here ever since meets the requirements for in-state tuition as far as I'm concerned. It's outrageously cruel and unfair to punish young people for something over which they had no choice.

The only problem is that the illegal aliens do live in the state, and that's the point of in-state tuition. Maybe they should be deported, but they do live in that state and contribute to its tax base, unlike out of state people.

I paid out of state tuition and never resented it that much. But then I am from a tiny state with only one U. to choose from.

They can get in-state tuition at schools in their own state. :shrug:

:shrug:

Lock up alla them thar Messicans and sort 'em out later! :sarcasm:

She attended for one semester, but was forced to move back to Washington because living for less than one year with her aunt and uncle in Phoenix was not considered "residency". She couldn't afford out of state tuition.

If her hometown was Mexico City, would the outcome have been different?

And has lived here ever since and graduated high school here, then yes. Your son's g/f could have lived here in Phoenix for a year and established residency before applying at ASU if it was that important to her to go there. The article in the OP is a situation where certain college students are engaging in petty retribution against other students because they didn't get something they wanted and it's pretty vile IMHO.

If you get brought to the US by your parents at (say) age 7, does that somehow become your fault as soon as you turn 18?

May as well let drunk drivers get a free pardon every time they booze up then opt to drive home. Whatever that tangent means, I don't know.

Help those who work within the system.

Those who illegally come in do not deserve respect or support because they haven't shown it. (and it's also pretty dumb, if disrespectfully audacious to put the flag of the country they left over the US when on US soil.)

Let's say this: To those who'll automatically disagree: You can leave America, go to another country -- ILLEGALLY to ensure consistency. Hell, once you arrive (and I repeat, illegally to keep it fair and equal), take down their flag and put the US flag over it. See what happens. I'd recommend you don't proceed with that course, however.

The system is set up such that someone can get in-state tuition if they graduated from a state high school, attended a state high school for three years, and sign an affidavit promising to apply for permanent residency as soon as they are eligible. That's the system. Students like Cora Orta are working within it.

However, if she's from out of state and attending CA and paying in-state, while an American citizen from out of state pays the higher tuition, how is that even remotely fair.

I personally am in favor of making states much more even. It is not fair that the state you are born in will determine, often, your entire socio-economic life and the advantages or disadvantages you may have. It is not fair that someone from the North or California can sell a home and go south or mid country and buy two homes. We need pay equality throughout the states. Schools equalized. Job sources and living sources equalized. Someone from Kentucky or West Virginia should have the same type of lifestyle equivalency as someone living in a big city. The inequality from state to state is insane. Likewise differing laws... like being gay and married under the law in MA, but move to FL, and you are illegal and liable to be fired for being gay. These United States need to be equalized... this way you don't have the dumb-ass pukes pimping foreign auto makers in their states over American companies who happen to be in a different state. Our United States is a freaking joke. Perhaps we need to start there.. equalize the fucking states.. and why is in-state so different than out of state.. that whole term to me is a joke in itself... Is this not the United States.

BTW, higher learning ought to be free for those who have the grades and are willing and able to attend higher learning institutions... Its a disgrace to know how many Valedictorians are not attending college around this nation because they cannot afford the cost. That's a waste of talent and future technologies, thought, progress.

But they do need to pay the out-of-state tuition rate. If they truly are good high school students, they should qualify for scholarships that will help to mitigate the increased cost of out-of-state tuition

You're not going to be able to pay for that with scholarship. Forcing these kids to pay those rates is effectively saying "you don't get to go to college" to them.

A combination of those four will get it done. You know, the way most people do it.

Take bootstraps shit to Free Republic because Homey don't play that here on DU.

Guess what: I used 3 of the 4 resources I listed - Pell grants, student loans (on which I'm still paying), and a job. I was lazy in high school because I already knew everything (like most teenagers), so I didn't qualify for a scholarship. Why don't you take your shit somewhere else

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They're young adults, 18+ years old. Paying out-of-state tuition isn't punishment, it's how the real world works. But if you do consider it to be punishment, why do you want to punish American citizens by either limiting their selection of colleges to the state in which they were born, or forcing them to pay 3x as much as others?

Availing one's self to resources to pay for college is not irrelevant to the conversation. That's why those resources are there. California currently has a $25 billion budget deficit. If 10,000 illegal aliens in California are receiving an average $10,000 per year tuition break (a very conservative estimate, both in number of students and dollar amount), that's $100 million.

Why are you prejudiced against the citizens of every country in the world that does not border the United States? Why should citizens of all other countries in the world, aside from Mexico and those of Central and South America, have to apply for student visas simply because they can't walk to the US?

The "poor kids" you refer to will still have the same opportunities that I had, they'll just have to pay their fair share in order to have access to those opportunities.

p.s.: it's against forum rules to call someone a freeper :hi:


math edit

ETA: I spoke to soon, I see a good argument or two up thread.

The 'you are on the wrong board' comments seem really weak.

It's kinda hard to maintain objectivity.

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That's good. How very true.

You're a piece of work :rofl:

their parents pay local, state and federal taxes and the kids are graduates of KS high schools.

In other words, the only difference between them and their American born classmates is a line on a piece of paper stating where they were born.

I would much rather give them in state tuition than a kid who lives in another state and has not contributed financially to KS.

How are they not American born?

then shortly thereafter came across the border.

Did you really need that explained to you?

Do you think every illegal alien waits til their kids are at least 15 years old or so before saying, "hey kids we're leaving for decent jobs in America. You can come along if you want..."?

:banghead:

But more often than not, the mother crosses the border into the US and then has the baby, thereby ensuring that the baby is a citizen of the US and is eligible for government assistance in the event that it is needed.

What I and others are talking about is the fact that many children are brought here by parents who come illegally; the child has no say. When they reach adulthood what are they to do? The home of their parents is not their home: the US is the only home they've really known. And yes they are residents of the state, so if they are allowed to attend college at all rather than be deported, then they should pay in-state tuition for state colleges in their state of residence.

BTW I am not a "no borders" supporter. But I think it is unfair to disadvantage young people because of what their parents did to them.

The other poster was the one who mentioned "babies". I'm aware that many were brought to the US when they were children, but the use of the word "babies" has an entirely different connotation than does "children".

While it may be unfair to disadvantage young people because of what their parents did to them, it happens every day all across the country. Children whose parents are sent to prison are severely disadvantaged, yet we still put people in prison when they are convicted of a crime.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to go to college, or that they should be deported, I'm arguing that they shouldn't receive in-state tuition. The only manner in which they would be disadvantaged is by having to pay a higher rate of tuition. Access to education would still be there.

Nice adult conversation skills Dude.

:shrug:

They live in the state and their parents have been paying taxes for years. So are they, in many cases.

...and federal law does not automatically preempt state law except where explicitly asserted.

And if you'd read the article you'd see that undocumented students don't qualify for loans.

From the article:

"For the 2008-09 school year, out-of-state undergraduates pay about $28,600 to attend a UC school, compared with about $8,000 for students who qualify for in-state tuition. Out-of-state undergraduate students at Cal State campuses pay on average $10,000 more than in-state students. At community colleges, California residents pay $26 per unit, while out-of-state students pay between $140 and $170."

How about doing a 2+2 degree, i.e. 2 years at a community college to get the basic Freshman and Sophomore courses out of the way, and 2 years at a university for the Junior and Senior courses? 64 credit hours at community college rates would be 64x $155 (average) = $9,920. Add 2 years of Junior & Senior courses at a Cal State campus (about $15,000 a year), rather than a UC campus, and all of a sudden you're looking at a total of roughly $50,000 for a 4 year degree, or $12,500 a year using the out-of-state tuition amounts. Yes, it's expensive, but not the $112,000 ($28,000 x 4) you alluded to. Pay for half, or $25,000, by working ($6,250 per year for 4 years is certainly manageable), get loans, grants, and scholarships for the other half, and you're right there with the rest of America's college graduates in terms of debt. Consider this:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/2006-06-11-debt-cover-usat_x.htm

"The average college senior graduated this year with more than $19,000 in debt."

That was in 2006. I'm sure the number is higher now.

That leaves scholarships and part time jobs. Scholarships are only available to a few and have you ever tried to pay for college with a part time job?

You clearly don't want to allow these kids the same opportunities as "most people" yet you are holding them to the same standards. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

vegetables if the Mexican immigrant kids get a good education?

So if they are allowed to remain, why shouldn't they pay the resident rate?

Kids who are not US citizens are not eligible for scholarships.

http://www.lnesc.org/vertical/Sites/%7BC4BA59E5-16F5-4897-9073-63EDAA5E6867%7D/uploads/%7BA8D57343-71FB-47E8-9A18-BC9D96B4FEEC%7D.PDF

The GM/LULAC Scholarship Program will award $2,000 scholarships to qualified minority
students who are enrolled or are planning to enroll as an engineering major leading to a bachelor’s degree at a college or university approved by LULAC and GM.

ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
Applicants must meet the following criteria to be considered for a scholarship:
Must be a minority student pursuing full-time studies leading to a bachelor’s degree at a college
approved by LULAC and GM.
Must have a college cumulative grade point average of at least 3.2 on a 4.0 scale or the
equivalent, or for entering freshman, must have a high school cumulative grade point average of
at least 3.5 on a 4.0 scale or the equivalent.
Entering freshman must have also scored at least 29 on the ACT test (composite) or at least 1350
on the SAT test (verbal & math).
Must major in courses leading to a professional career in engineering.

http://www.maldef.org/education/law.htm

MALDEF’s law school scholarship program is open to law students entering their 1st, 2nd or 3rd year of law school.

2009 MALDEF LAW SCHOOL SCHOLARSHIP

The MALDEF Law School Scholarship Program awards scholarships of up to $7,000 each year to deserving individuals entering their first, second or third year of law school. Students must be enrolled in law school full-time in the upcoming school year to qualify.

The scholarships are awarded to students based upon three primary factors:
1. demonstrated involvement in and commitment to serve the Latino community through the legal profession;
2. academic and professional achievement;
3. and financial need.

http://www.larazalawyers-santaclara.com/_wsn/page3.html

TO BE ELIGIBLE TO APPLY (CRITERIA):
La Raza Lawyers Association of Santa Clara County provides these grants to encourage and advance the social, cultural, economic and legal equality of minorities. The scholarship grants are available to La Raza students who (1) are from the Bay area (La Raza Lawyers of Santa Clara County will decide on a case by case basis if the student meets this criteria); -OR- (2) attend Santa Clara University, Lincoln, UC Berkeley, University of San Francisco, UC Hastings, Stanford, Golden Gate University, UC Davis, or McGeorge Schools of Law. In addition, La Raza Lawyers of Santa Clara County will also consider activities such as but not limited to community involvement, peer counseling, school activities and financial need.


Those 3 came up right off the bat. I imagine they aren't the only 3 scholarship funds in the country that don't require proof of citizenship

qualify for ANY scholarships. Besides those are only available to a few kids. I favor allowing ALL to attend college and that it be affordable.

These kids in my state are my neighbors and I will be at the head of the line protesting if this tuition policy is ever altered.

Why should the kids with lousy grades who happen to have been born here get dirt cheap community college tuition while kids who were brought here as infants pay up to 3 times as much?

Legal or illegal doesn't play a role there. If anything, this case is evidence for why we need to offer amnesty and speed the legalization process.

They created the COF (Colorado "Opportunity" Fund). The idea is to prevent illegals from getting into college. So instead of colleges just being funded directly by the state, the money first flows through vouchers, which the students have to apply for. On the application is a citizenship verification. So, no citizenship, no college for you.

And then we get dinged for low college attendance for our graduating kids.

Each one of them had a citizenship and residency questionnaire attached.

I don't think this is just limited to Colorado.

Of course, you CAN use the vouchers now for Christian universities.

Yeah, who would want to go to those colleges?

:sarcasm:

delete. dumb comment made with too much coffee.

I think it's disgusting.

What happened to colleges opening minds?

I was just being sarcastic about Christian colleges when some of our finest schools actually have a Christian background.

No harm intended.

:hi:

State legislatures all over the country have passed these laws because they are popular with the racist conservative idiots who vote regularly in local elections.

for illegal immigrants.

Because the roads are sooooo much safer with scared uninsured and unlicensed drivers who are likely to flee the scene of accidents. :sarcasm:

both said at the Democratic Primary debate in NV that they opposed drivers licenses for illegals. Damn racists! :sarcasm:

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7370665

It was just unbelievable to me that this was a major issue for people. Yet, when I went out canvassing during the primaries I got asked about it. A lot. By Democrats. :banghead:

Look, my point isn't that they should or shouldn't have licenses, or that they should or shouldn't get in-state tuition. Just that not all people who may oppose these measures are necessarily racists.

My problem with the whole thing is that government won't address the real issues. You can't leave the current immigration laws in place and then pass other laws that seem to undercut them. Immigration shouldn't be handled with an "official" policy one hand and a wink and a nod on the other. If necessary streamline the visa process and make them more available and easier to apply for, address the status of those currently in the US, decide what the proper enforcement should be (whether it be deportment or a 5 dollar fine) and then actually enforce it. In a nutshell, the government (Federal, State and local) needs to stop sending mixed signals and decide on some comprehensive policy, whatever it may be. Instead, a series of individual policies, many contradicting, are put in place not as any sort of overall plan, but rather as a means of pandering to this group or that group around election time.

People who were brought here as children broke no law of their own volition. A "comprehensive" immigration policy (whatever that means) may be several years away so it's not asking too much to make an allowance for young people who have lived in a state most of their lives to go to school. There comes a point where being a stickler for the rules carries a steep price. In the case of driver's licenses, you are creating an unsafe situation on the roads. In the case of college tuition you are consigning millions of young people to limited economic opportunities which, at best, could lead to increased costs for social services and, at worst, more crime and more prisoners.

as individual election year issues, we'll never see "comprehensive" immigration reform. It will continue to be used as a series of smaller issues used to garner votes. Rather than making a series of "band-aid" allowances for situations where people have no official standing, address the issues of their immigration status now, and you can essentially resolve these other issues all at once. Until that is done, all these other issues will end up tied up in referendums and in the courts for years.

for a certain period of time to get the "in-state" tuition, or can illegal immigrants from any state get in-state tuition in CA?

It was in heavy rotation during the election.

2) a lack of financial dependence on someone residing outside the state (for students who are not financially independent), and 3) a demonstrated intent to remain in the state as a permanent resident. There is also an exemption for students who graduate from CA high schools after a certain length of attendance. It's basically the same for every state, as far as I know.

Immigration status is totally irrelevant to residency classification - as soon as a student (no matter where they were born or where they moved from) meets the above, they are a CA resident. IMO, this suit will be tossed quickly. It's basically just a bunch of bitter conservatives trying to console themselves for losing the election by lashing out at brown people...

That is why the immigration laws being so restrictive, it is hard to enforce them just by trying to make their lives harder. You'd have to criminalize every transaction and if we don't have enough manpower to deport the aliens, we certainly don't have the manpower to arrest every shopkeeper or college or whatever for dealing with illegal aliens.

Most of these kids have been here since they were babies or toddlers. They are Americans for all intents and purposes. They and their parents live and work here and contribute to our tax base. They should get in-state tuition because they have usually lived in the state where they're applying to college for several years.

These students are not asking to waive in-state tuition requirements in every state. They just want to be able to pay those rates in the state they've been living in. They just want the same opportunity you had.

In any case, I think the lawsuit will fail as immigration policy is not a constitutional matter; the constitution defines citizenship but says nothing about terms of residency, and the bill of rights is (legally) universal.

Not a lawyer, but I've had occasion to study this topic in some depth as I'm an immigrant.

Unfortunately a lot of states are passing laws requiring U.S. citizenship in addition to residency for in-state tuition.

The head of our state GOP is a right wing attorney who appears fairly regularly on Lou Dobbs. He filed a lawsuit challenging the law in KS that gives all kids who live here and whose parents pay taxes here in state tuition rates. That includes undocumented kids, who must have graduated from a KS high school and be in the process of becoming citizens. Anyhow, the head of our state GOP challenged it and he lost. He also represented that town in PA that tried to kick out all their undocumented and he lost that case too.

His name is Kris Kobach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kobach

The kids have to be graduates of a KS high school, working on citizenship and their parents have to be paying taxes in KS.

Why anyone would criticize a program that educates kids while costing very little is just a mind blower to me.

Whatever one's position on immigration is, it is unfathomable how meanspirited a person has to be to want to punish kids for something their parents did a long time ago that they had no part in.

you to proclaim everyone of these kid' situation to be the same? "My parents brought me here as a child" how can possibly know that is there some kind of official study you are quoting?


Again explain to me why a foreign national attending an American University should not be required to have a student visas? I wouldn't expect to be allowed to attend the University of Tokyo or London School of Economics without adhering to their laws regarding foreign students.


You cannot be surprised that many Americans would not be sympathetic to this issue considering the cost of college today and how the high number of students that are forced to drop-out or live in a lifetime of debt just to attend undergraduate.

They have lived here since they were babies and their families are taxplayers. Why should a kid who has done nothing to support Kansas get a break over a kid who lives here?

"our kids" are talking about illegal aliens who pay taxes or just American kids?

So they are our kids. Not that hard to grasp.

student has been educated all their life in the United States unless of course you want to submit some kind of study.

Also I am not arguing for non-residence to receive in-state tuition either.

I am just talking about the kids in my state who are eligible for this program.

And what exact age they were when they were brought here is really irrelevant if they were children when it happened. I don't know how much say you had in decisions your parents made when you were a kid but I sure as hell didn't have much.

my parents never took me to live anywhere illegally. So I cannot really say how I would react in this type situation.

But I think all colleges should require proof of American citizenry/legal resident and if you are here illegally then there needs to be some kind of program in which these students can attain proper student visas; instead of just having this completely convoluted system in which the basic question of citizenship is not even being asked. While college these students must show proof of applying for legal residence and citizenship.

Also it would be interesting to know what kind of jobs these students expect to get hired for being an illegal immigrant. Okay so they graduate from college with all this enormous debt and with the low probability of attaining good employment. A reputable company is not going to hire an undocumented worker for a good paying white collar job or rather a good paying job period.

It would be a federal law that enabled undocumented immigrants who were brought here as children and graduated high school with good grades to attend college and gain permanent residency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

but of course this is the reason it won't pass. Right now many illegal immigrants are in jeopardy as long as their isn't some kind of comprehensive bill particularly illegal immigrants living in more Conservative states with the economy being so terrible they will become easy targets for reactionary policies.

Unless the Dream Act passes she won't be able to go to college.

We were invaded by a bunch of xenophobic assholes. And some are still here.

comprehensive immigration policy you are a xenophobe? This helps the discussion how exactly when Democrats spend more time trying to call a dissenters racists and xenophobes instead of addressing something that is clearly a big problem in our country.

Why?

On the larger point of immigration (which is but one factor in the real issue, which is "globalization" and horribly flawed trade policies) I do agree that there are those who play the racism and xenophobia card when their real goal is to push their greedy agenda. I am NOT a supporter of exploitation and wage suppression and any immigration reform must address those problems if it is to be fair. But punishing young people who did nothing wrong is just the worst sort of overreaction to the issue and is needlessly cruel.

going to college in fact I strongly encourage it and I consider it to be a betterment for not only the student but for society as well. However, I do believe that you must meet legal requirements to attend a college in this country. Whether it be through student visas or some other type of programs, and if a student fails to meet the legal requirements they should not be admitted to any American colleges.

Why should they not be allowed to attend college?

should be apart of any other necessary requirements for college admittance. You do realize that there is a difference between advocating for a student to meet certain residency requirements and making the sweeping statement that ALL illegal aliens should not be allowed to attend college right?

The people suing don't (or didn't) meet them and are taking it out on them.

"making the sweeping statement that ALL illegal aliens should not be allowed to attend college right?"

You still have not answered my question...WHY should they not be allowed to attend?

but I'll answer your question yet again since the answer is pretty obvious. Because they are illegal and technically they should not be admitted to college because of their failure to meet the necessary requirements to work and live in this country. Furthermore, what the hell are some of these kids parents doing? You bring your kid here as per catburgler during infancy then you don't bother going through the process of at least making your children legal residences or citizens if anything you should take your anger out on these parents NOT the system. The question needs to be leveled to some of these public school systems that don't require parents to show proof of legal residence or citizenship because really if the problem was dealt with on that level we wouldn't even need to have this discussion about college.

1. NO "illegal" aliens should be allowed to attend American schools...check

2. The "catburglers" should apply for citizenship...check

3. The parents of said children are the ones to blame...check

So, given your ideas we would have a nation full of uneducated "dark people" and they can just go and pick tomatoes...right.







BTW...maybe before you go and spout off about them becoming "legal" perhaps I should inform you that THEY CAN NOT! MEXICAN NATIONALS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO APPLY FOR A VISA...GET IT. I will now give you the link since I doubt you have the intestinal fortitude to check for yourself since Rush does your thinking for you: http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/T1026V-DV-2010bulletin(3).pdf

And if you are unwilling to read here is an excerpt: For DV-2010, natives of the following countries1 are not eligible to apply because the countries sent a total of more than 50,000 immigrants to the U.S. in the previous five years: BRAZIL, CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, ECUADOR, EL SALVADOR, GUATEMALA, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, PERU, POLAND, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM.

turn this into a discussion about race instead of providing solutions that don't include just eliminating the borders are considering everyone that lives on American soil a citizen right?


So what about the people who've bothered to go through the process and have spents thousands of dollars going through the process fuck them for being dumb and not just living in the country illegally?

What about other immigrants who do not live in close proximity of the United States and thus cannot just jump in a car and drive across the border fuck them to because you have to go through the process the right way?

Illegal Mexican immigrants since you want to make this discussion just about them should not be given special privileges and that there absolutely needs to be a comprehensive bill addressing this problem.

I merely said that there is a small (very very small) group of xenophobic Ron Paul types here on DU.

These kids aren't taking away the spot another kid would get. The program doesn't cost the taxpayers a dime and the long term financial benefits (the result of a well educated and employable citizenry) are enormous.

So really, how else can you explain how anyone can NOT support this unless they just don't like Hispanic kids. And that's racism.

racist for stating that illegal aliens should be forced to adhere to our laws. First off you are insane if you believe it's the American governments job to make higher education affordable to illegal immigrants. First off you must be living in a bubble because higher education today IS NOT AFFORDABLE TO ANYONE and illegal immigrants should be last in line because making college affordable citizens and legal residences should be the first priority.

Again people like you only undermine the Democrats position on immigration this wishy washy position in which we won't take a strong stance on creating then enforcing immigration laws. I'll ask this question again would it be racist of the Japanese government to not allow me to attend their public schools without the proper immigration documentation.

Seriously you are ridiculous and it's exceedingly stupid to even be bringing this issue to the forefront when the current is turning against illegal immigrants in this country. And no it isn't just wacky Neo Cons but people of different political persuasion that are coming out strongly against this rampant and uncontrollable illegal immigrant influx.

if their parents pay taxes in the state. That includes kids who are undocumented. You can't have this both ways. You are asking that we ignore this law while enforcing immigration laws, which is proving to be impossible.

This has nothing to do with Democrats or Japan. Those are strawman arguments.

I will remind you that many people in this country also felt African Americans were not entitled to equal opportunities. Fortunately our lawmakers were able to think beyond what "the current" was in those days and pass legislation that was fair and just.

So yes, I maintain that opposing this law which gives all in state residents an in state tuition rate is racist.

were raised in the Segregation south so do yourself a favor and do not draw comparisons between the African American plight and illegal immigrants who WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES. You know what my parents didn't get to have these easy debates over in-state tuition when because they were too busy trying to navigate legalized racism and hundreds of years worth of racist attitudes. Even though my family has been in this country for hundreds of years.

Secondly I never claimed to be familiar with the laws of your state and I will continue to stand by my position that if you are illegal and do not have the proper credentials to attend college in the US i.e. student visas then you should not be admitted. Forget about in-state tuition for a minute because the real question should about their eligibility to attend college PERIOD.


If you want to continue to call me a racist I will continue to think of you as a obtuse moron.

Currently, children who immigrate to the United States from another country can only obtain legal status through their parents; there is no independent method to accomplish this. Through many quirks in immigration law, many individuals brought here as children remain without permanent status, despite having parents or spouses who are citizens or legal permanent residents.<2><3> If a child is brought into the country illegally there is no method of becoming a legal resident. Returning to their country of birth would not guarantee a path to legal status. Attempts to come back legally are often difficult, with roadblocks such as ten year bans on re-entering the U.S. <4> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Background

There goes your theory that all they have to do is go obtain student visas. For these kids, leaving the U.S. means that they may not be able to return for a long time, if ever.

BTW, there is no such thing as an illegal human being. The more appropriate term is undocumented, unless one is a follower of Michelle Malkin or Michael Savage. Moreover, children who were brought here by their parents did NOTHING illegal.

there needs to be a revamping of the system in which these students can attain student visas through other legal means. Unless of course you totally support the current system and thinks it should remain the same.

Btw you do realize that students who are of college age ARE NOT CHILDREN CORRECT and also that term undocumented was invented for political reasons as to take away the harshness of the term illegal but that does not change the fact that RESIDING IN A NON-NATIVE COUNTRY without proper documentation is STILL ILLEGAL.

Because that's what the law says. Do you REALLY believe that a person who grew up in the United States should be dumped back in her native country, one where she may not know the language and be unfamiliar with it's culture? Really? It would make you happy to see that? Would it fulfill your sense of propriety to destroy someone's life like that because she didn't have the dumb luck you did to be born here?

As I pointed out upthread (in a post that got deleted because it hurt the OP's fee fees) I honestly believe that the reason a lot of the people have such venomous hostility for undocumented immigrants is that they've accomplished little to nothing in their own lives. Being born in the United States is literally the only thing they have to lord over other people. It's rather pathetic.

look we cannot just decide that people who've done the process wrong should be given a free pass. I live in a heavily populated immigrant area and one of my best friends is a child of immigrant parents. When she tells me stories about how hard her parents worked to become citizens of this country I cannot imagine how we can possibly justify to those people that it is right that someone else whose made absolutely no effort to even become a legal immigrant let alone a citizen should be given a free pass on their illegal actions. Her parents busted their ass before coming to the states to raise enough money to apply for a green card and then they spent even more money to become citizens. So what about them where's the fairness to the naturalized citizens? Fuck em because they were dumb enough to go through the process.


Also you are saying I must be a complete loser in my own life to have this attitude towards illegal immigration? You really are a piece of work and truly a detriment to the cause of immigrants in this country with your accusations of racism and personal attacks.

Really, I fail to see how that is a justification for dumping some other person in a strange country where they don't know the language and customs because of what their parents did when they were a child. What is that person supposed to do? Do you just think everyone in that situation would have a bunch of relatives they can just ring up that they can stay with? How are they supposed to support themselves?

And honestly, what's it to you anyway? What does what your friend's parents did have to do with you? It's almost like you're claiming their accomplishments as your own because you know you didn't do shit except be born here. I'm getting more and more convinced that my theory about nativists is right.

You don't give a shit about the immigrants who did come here legally and busted their asses for citizenship. People like yourself probably look at them as idiots for bothering to go through the process. Look I don't even have a problem with people who come here illegally then go through the process of becoming a legal immigrant but immigrants who are not even making the effort to become a legal resident should not be in this country. I don't care what their home looks like because guess what there is a very large list of fucked up countries in this world so they can just get in line like everyone else.


No I don't have to claim my friend's parents accomplishment as my own because like I said before my parents know all to well what it's like to live in a country that treats you as second class citizen growing up in Louisiana during segregation and the Civil Rights Movement. So you know jack shit about my situation.

Tell me, have you ever done anything yourself?

And I notice you are studiously avoiding the issue of the fate of people dumped in their native countries in the manner I described. I guess they can just beg on the streets. Or die. Or worse, as what might happen to the 17 year old female high school senior who was dumped by immigration agents in Mexico. She'd never been to Mexico in her life. I mean, I'm sure nothing bad would ever happen to a 17 year old girl with no place to go on the streets in an unfamiliar country, would it? But hey, she's "illegal" so she deserves it, right?

As for the immigrants who "bust their asses" for citizenship, you need to educate yourself about immigration laws in the U.S. There is a quota on the number of people who can come in from each country and the process favors people from certain countries or with certain skills. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong but that's the reality. This notion that everyone who wants to come here can just stand in line and go through the same process is false. For example, they issue a pitifully small number of visas to Mexicans. It's a fraction of the number who actually come here desperate for work, because of our trade policies that decimated their economy. Believe it or not, my dear, they aren't coming here to annoy you and flaunt how they didn't go through the process. They come here to find work and feed their families because there is none where they come from. The reason for that is us. Our military, trade, and economic policies. "They are here because we are there."

a college educated and gainfully employed American citizen. But your right I've never dealt with racism or sexism as African American female. You know so incredibly much about everything.

About the poor kid that gets shipped back home it's like any other kid who gets caught up in their parent's mess. Like a kid whose parents are caught selling drugs out of the home. Is it fair that the children might end up in foster care or worse completely on the street? Or how about the parents that get caught for tax evasion is it fair that their worldly possessions are taken away from them? Seriously what candyland do you live in? If you want to be mad at someone get made at these parents who put their children at risk by not becoming legal residences DUH. But somehow this does not compute in your brain.

I said this already if there is a quota then again why is this a problem? There should be a number of immigrants that are granted visas for this country particularly when you consider the millions of Americans that are struggling everyday. If majority of Americans had jobs, access to good health care, access to good education, and we just billions upon billions of dollars that we had no idea what do with then I would see give a limitless number of visas.

Oh but that's right Mexican immigrants are the only ones struggling while every American lives in big homes and eats feasts every night off of golden plates. Like I said educate yourself on this country.

Like I said you hurt the cause because while you block comprehensive immigration laws more and more illegal immigrants while be placed at risk because then it gives employer's license to rip them off, it opens the door for hostility among their neighbors, and worse INS will just start rounding people up and deporting them or placing them in Detention centers with no due process or legal representation.

So continue fighting comprehensive immigration reform. Curiously what ethnicity are you and what's your background that makes you so incredibly qualified to speak about this issue with absolute certainty?

You are entirely correct that comprehensive immigration reform is needed and that employers are taking advantage of cheap, desperate, politically-neutered workers. That's why in addition to immigration reform we need stronger unions and worker protections. The problem of wage suppression and eroding rights of workers is coming from the boardrooms, not the borders. Put the blame where it really lies. Furthermore, where you are getting this idea that I "block" immigration laws I do not know. I pointed out the small number of visas for Mexicans not to argue that issue but to counter your assertion that everyone can just get in the same line and go through the same process.

About the poor kid that gets shipped back home it's like any other kid who gets caught up in their parent's mess. Like a kid whose parents are caught selling drugs out of the home. Is it fair that the children might end up in foster care or worse completely on the street? Or how about the parents that get caught for tax evasion is it fair that their worldly possessions are taken away from them? Seriously what candyland do you live in? If you want to be mad at someone get made at these parents who put their children at risk by not becoming legal residences DUH. But somehow this does not compute in your brain.

The examples you cite are violations of criminal law on the part of the parents. Illegal immigration is a civil violation. It is on a par with a traffic ticket where legal penalties are concerned. And while it is sadly true that the children of people caught up in the criminal justice system (especially if they are poor and minority) often face horrible consequences I don't see how rounding up other people who were brought here as children through no volition of there own and deporting them will mitigate their situation. It may fulfill some warped sense of justice you have but it won't make those children's lives one iota better.


And I would never minimize or dismiss your experience as an African American woman in this country. That, however, is not the same subject as immigration. BTW, I am a caucasian woman of Irish descent. I'm fairly certain my ancestors came over during the potato famine of the mid-19th century. Illegally.

They're getting something I'm not getting! & similar whines :sarcasm:

That's why they want to criticize your program, proud. I think it's a good one, myself.

dg

The UC and CSU systems are some of the best bargains going. There are few cheaper university options, even in lesser schools.

If he wanted in-state tuition, there are several schools in *Illinois* that the student could have attended. Presumably the same is true for other students/parents involved in the suit.

Meanwhile, the state has decided to grant resident tuition rates to people who actually live in the state. What a surprise.

As for your suggestion that Ms. Orta needs a reality check--if she had to pay out of state tuition, a different institution would still be expensive. She can't pay in-state tuition at any college in the country--just in California, the state where she lives, went to high school, etc.

No one forced that whiner to go to an out-of-state school. There are plenty of excellent public colleges in IL where he is from. If he really wanted to go in-state, he could have relocated to CA and worked for a couple of years before attending school like a lot of other people do. How much do you want to bet he's some College Republican putz? I wonder what his handle on FR is.

I lived and worked there a year to establish residency to go to school there. It really wasn't all that onerous.

This guy is a whiner.

I discovered this when reading about the Dream Act:

Currently, children who immigrate to the United States from another country can only obtain legal status through their parents; there is no independent method to accomplish this. Through many quirks in immigration law, many individuals brought here as children remain without permanent status, despite having parents or spouses who are citizens or legal permanent residents.<2><3> If a child is brought into the country illegally there is no method of becoming a legal resident. Returning to their country of birth would not guarantee a path to legal status. Attempts to come back legally are often difficult, with roadblocks such as ten year bans on re-entering the U.S.

It's from Wikipedia but it is cited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Background

lol

I do think we need comprehensive immigration reform, not the overall status quo we have no which basically amounts to Not Addressing the Problem.

law coming here? They are all in this country illegally and have more benefits than citizens of this country? Sorry but it's just wrong.

Maybe if we don't make things so inviting for them, they'll stay in their home countries and work to improve things there.

Flame away if you must, but this is just my opinion.

What's the point of that?

It's what the education executives did, in putting profits over the law.

I'm not sure I get your meaning here. You mean by charging out-of-state tuition to people from out of state?

For endowments, for athletes (sponsorship $$), for tuition money, etc.

The trick is that they need to go to a school in the state where they live - then they can pay in-state tuition to that school. Or, they could move to California and get a job long enough to establish residency, then attend the California school of their choice and pay in-state tuition.

It really isn't that difficult to comprehend.

Someone else needs to suffer!

in the first place.

After strip mining their resources and screwing with their elections and killing their democratic leaders, allowing them to get resident rates for college is a lot cheaper than reparations.

Inviting. lol

And that makes them smarter and better.

:sarcasm:

:crazy:

So much resentment towards students who get (imagine!) in-state tuition at a school in a state where they actually live. :crazy:

Their parents broke the law too you know.

What's really crazy is punishing kids for what their parents did.

Think about it.

However, people don't come here illegally to send their kids to college. Honest, they're not thinking that far ahead. But regardless of the motives of the parents who come here, the kids don't deserve to be punished for it. NO ONE benefits by depriving them of a college education.

not a child that is an adult in this country. We are talking about 5 year olds trying to get admitted to kindergarten we are talking about full grown adults. So portraying this false argument of "these are kids"

The "crime" was committed when they were children. They did nothing illegal.

yet you keep repeating it as though it's a proven fact which it is not.

The article in the OP (if you'd care to actually read it) is about college students in CA establishing residency and a lawsuit that seeks to deny undocumented students in-state tuition even if they have satisfied CA residency per the state law. The current CA law allows undocumented students to attend college at in-state rates if they fulfill certain academic and residency requirments (read the article to see what they are). So we're not talking about adults who jumped the border with the purpose of going to UCLA (much as you'd probably like to make it into something like that). We are talking about people who graduated from CA high schools and have lived in the state for years, who may face the prospect of paying exhorbitant out-of-state tuition rates because some crybabies think they should be able to go to college in any state and get cheap tuition, without establishing residency.

children of illegal immigrants are brought here when they are children NOT just the people in this article but all children of illegal immigrants. Now I've asked you repeatedly to show me the study that was done on this that lends credence to your statements.

And I frankly don't know what the hell you are talking about as regards this "study" you want me to produce.

children of illegal immigrants are brought here when they are children NOT just the people in this article but all children of illegal immigrants. Now I've asked you repeatedly to show me the study that was done on this that lends credence to your statements.

If they were brought here as children, then they were brought here as children. WTF else do you need to know?

can't buy booze, can't rent a car, can't run for some offices...I'm sorry, 18 year olds may be good enough to be considered cannon fodder but the rest of society pretty much doesn't view them as full-fledged adults. Living abroad, this attitude always confused me. It was not uncommon at all for unmarried people in their late 20's/early 30's to still be living with their parents. Only the wealthy wasted the money on separate housing, and even among the wealthy, there were many who still preferred to live at home for many reasons. This whole "GTFO of the house" right after your 18th birthday is uniquely a contemporary American trend, probably linked to suburbanization and capitalist consumption. In the early half of the 20th C, more than half of young adults lived at home. That number has been decreasing in our country over the years.

considered legal adults in this country? This is a empty argument 18 year olds are sent to war, can vote in elections, buy a gun in some states, drive a car, and if you commit a crime you are not sent to Juvie but adult prison.

Take it up with the legislators who passed those laws, not me. There are many states that will try 12 year olds as adults in some crimes, so even under criminal law "adult" is not a static identification.

They are called "young adults" for a reason. Defining an adult legally is besides the point, anyway. There isn't something that magically happens on your 18th birthday. Culturally, an 18 year old is really young, and in most other industrialized countries 18 year olds are not expected to just hop out of mom and dad's house to fend for themselves. This is an attitude that shocked many of the foreigners I have come across in my travels, as well as the ones who came here to study or visit.

and buying a booze. The renting a car I don't know if that has to do with actual laws or with certain company policies. I knew many kids that rented cars for their prom when they were 18 years old.

What does this argument have to do with 18 year old moving out their parent's house?

Where have you been because I've been to 16 countries in Europe as well as Canada and I have quite a few friends from Australia; if anything they are shocked by how backward we are towards 18 year olds. Many of the prohibition laws against 18 year olds in this country do not exist in most developed nations. Furthemore I find that 18 year olds from other nations are much more independent and worldly then our 18 year old. I cannot tell you how many 18 year olds I've met that immediately leave home and travel or the 18 year olds who completely relocate to another country for work and school.

I gave you more than buying booze and renting a car (which IS upheld by legal precedence, btw). There is a lot of cognitive dissonance in the US, and the drinking law is a great example. We force young adults to be ECONOMICALLY independent (and THIS is the biggest factor in the conversation in terms of "independence") but curtail their actual liberties.

As far as foreigners traveling, yes there is a great European tradition that encourages young adults to travel. However, there is a difference between going around and seeing the world and being kicked out of the house and forced to get a job the minute you graduate high school. Europeans and other cultures may indeed value experience and traveling is a type of independence, but they don't boot their kids out of the house the moment they get back, expecting them to instantly pay their own way in the world.

You're actually making my point...other Western cultures tend to nurture and invest in their children's future for a longer period of time. I don't think many 18 year olds pay for their own treks to Peru entirely. They also don't fetishize alcohol the way we do. It's not uncommon for kids to get small tastes of beer or wine. Has absolutely fuck-all to do with being an "adult" in those countries; on the flip-side the US places a lot of importance on alcohol consumption as a right of passage towards adulthood.

These are all generalizations and you will find exceptions on all sides, but these trends still hold.

Try to think things through before equivocating everything.

Or the reality of people who were brought to the U.S. by their parents as minor children. The poster you are responding to is making the argument that once those people are adults, they are de facto criminals who should face immediate deportment. S/he is ignoring the fact that they grew up in the U.S. and this is the only culture they know. And because they are undocumented, most of the time they CANNOT ever leave the U.S., lest they face not being able to return. This puts them at a disadvantage as compared to their legal resident counterparts who may have been able to travel freely between this country and their native country throughout childhood and young adulthood. Far as I'm concerned, I don't care if the person is 45 years old now, if they were brought here as a child they do not deserve to be punished for it and they certainly shouldn't be dumped unceremoniously in their native country and left to fend for themselves. The Dream Act needs to be passed and we need to come up with a legal solution at the federal level for people in this situation because it is, morally and practically, the right thing to do. Until then, immigrant-heavy states like CA should be able to deal with the issue as they see fit. Obviously, they decided it was in the best interest of their state to let undocumented CA residents attend school at an affordable tuition rate. It's a no-brainer to me.

I shouldn't let myself get dragged into tangents :evilgrin: I just wanted to jump in, and you had the other angles covered quite well. Xenophobia is really scary, and as the fiancee of a foreign national, the immigration laws just about BEG people to immigrate without documentation. It will cost us more than $2,000 JUST IN FEES and several years to get him fully immigrated, and if he wants to visit his native country, he needs to apply for a separate permission or else he violates his provisional status and we start all over again with a black mark on his record.

You can't get a fucking live voice on the USCIS phone line; they tell you to apply for an appointment and after you waste 45 minutes registering on the fucking website they tell you none are available in your area. So it comes down to paying thousands of dollars to a lawyer to help you with your immigration paperwork or risk making a tiny error and having the whole goddamn thing rejected.

So this is how they want it for people to immigrate "legally". I don't fucking blame anyone who doesn't want to get involved in USCIS paperwork and bureaucracy, not one bit. The legalese language is so dense that it takes ME, who can read French semiotic theory withou batting an eye, hours to get through the directions. I can only imagine how daunting it is to someone who speaks ESL.

And my entire post just covers those who can technically immigrate legally and not the poor kids in the OP article who are basically just forgotten and fell between the cracks in the system.

usually worked part-time jobs in order to finance trips and of course there parents provided some of the money. I think you have this wrong I agree that children in other countries have their families involved in their life past the age of 18 but I don't see how that has to do with them being considered children? Remember this was originally about catburgler using the term children. If you want to call them young adults by all means but I still stand by the believe that children of other developed nations (generalization) are bred to be more independent and self-sufficient. Whereas to many children in this country (generalization) aren't being prepared for the adult world period.

Your point about alcohol consumption is an entirely different discussion to this one and it is really irrelevant to illegal immigrants receiving in-state tuition or don't you agree?

I think most reasonable people would acknowledge that there is no magic age in which a person become a full-fledged adult but I was speaking about legalities here in the United States; last time I checked you are considered an adult and my point to catburlger was that they were misrepresenting their position when using the term children for 18 year olds because they are are clearly not children or are you making that argument as well?

not children, not adults. 18 is fucking young.

The entire board of regents - or whatever they use in Cali - should be sued as individuals.

That's the ticket!

and do it out of petty resentment!

At least help those who come here LEGALLY, and those born here who wish to contribute to American society, and NOT those who have no sense of respect or law for America, much less the home country from which they readily absconded. Those vermin don't give a shit about either country.

(oh, be sure to read before responding. Anyone who responds with the usual inferred rhetoric about all illegals being Mexicans is being the racist, not me. So a preemptive STFU to you jerks.)



* their own, law-abiding citizens - some of which legitimately need such services and support

See my other response; reverse the situation - people in other countries would not like it if people came to their country illegally either...

They have established residency. The whiny little jerks who are suing have not. They want to overturn the law because if they can't get something then, by god, those illeguls aren't either!

Classy. :puke:

Works for me.

Doesn't work for me:(

What is your basis for claiming documented residents are being treated like chopped liver?

Many undocumented immigrants do pay income and payroll taxes, despite the fact that they are ineligible for most government benefits and will never collect SS.

Streets, schools, and other services that people in society make use of? And trust me, lots do not pay taxes. Oh, and they aren't making minimum wage, also. Maybe a few, but I knew an undocumented bricklayer making $20/hr. I also spoke to a man looking for work and he told me he wanted $12/hr. That is what my bf makes!

But they also pay SS taxes and will never collect it. They don't qualify for Medicaid or food stamps, even though their wages are low enough to if they were legal residents.

As for your examples of the undocumented bricklayer and laborer, put the blame where it really lies. On the people who hire them under the table. If no one hired them, they couldn't work under the table.

Maybe not all...But I mentioned the public housing and as for food stamps, that would not surprise me. And I know that in my neighborhood, the bulk of students (who are about 95% Hispanic) are classified as lower-income. They can get free/reduced breakfasts and lunches. Meanwhile, as school is being let out, I see all these parents lining up in their new SUVs and pickup trucks.:shrug:

I live in Phoenix, where we have a lot of undocumented immigrants and I can tell you that they are NOT driving around in brand new SUVs. The children are able to get free and reduced lunches because they are enrolled in the school district. BTW, a lot of those kids were born here and that pesky U.S. constitution has declared them to be U.S. citizens because of it.

:rofl:

Gee I thought I made that abundantly clear in nearly every post in this thread. :crazy:

And I am not in the mood for research today, but there are stories about undocumented workers getting public housing when there's a waiting list for LEGAL residents and they've been waiting for years!

Don't get me wrong. I suspect that there is a hidden hand in all this to bust up unions, create a slave wage force, increase competition so we work harder for less and feel grateful to do so and won't bitch...

My thing is this: America has to employ its legal residents first. Mexico and its citizens need to address their own issues and the government would just love to have poor people out of their hair. The citizens need to march and demand from their own government before they do so here. And there are Mexicans who are doing just that. The world needs America to be stable. And how can we be stable if so many of our jobs are going to undocumented workers from across the globe, not to mention ones with work visas?

Legal immigrants can qualify for in-state tuition :shrug:

My beef is with a policy that allows the children of undocumented workers (who may not have been born on US soil, actually) the right to in-state tuition and disallows American-born out-of-state residents the same privileges and the argument is that the undocumented kids didn't ask to come here or be born here of illegal parents! So we do the old :nopity: and meanwhile, back at the ranch, undocumented residents know full well that having kids here is a way to get themselves planted here. Especially when they can turn in the sympathy-for-the-kids card. It angers me. I feel it's using the kids.