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Do you think this is murder?

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)

Stinky The Clown

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:37 PM
Original message

Do you think this is murder?

The story:

Man, 93, freezes to death; hadn't paid electric bills
January 26, 2009

FROM ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAY CITY, Mich. — A 93-year-old man froze to death inside his home just days after the municipal power company restricted his use of electricity because of unpaid bills, officials said.

Marvin E. Schur died “a slow, painful death,” said Kanu Virani, Oakland County’s deputy chief medical examiner, who performed the autopsy.

Neighbors discovered Schur’s body on Jan. 17. They said the indoor temperature was below 32 degrees at the time, The Bay City Times reported Monday.

“Hypothermia shuts the whole system down, slowly,” Virani said. “It’s not easy to die from hypothermia without first realizing your fingers and toes feel like they’re burning.”

A city utility worker had installed a “limiter” device to restrict the use of electricity at Schur’s home on Jan. 13, said Bay City Manager Robert Belleman. The device limits power reaching a home and blows out like a fuse if consumption rises past a set level. Power is not restored until the device is reset.

>snip< More here: http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/1397932,w-bay-city-michigan-freeze-death012609.article

In the dead of winter, some heartless fucking law causes a limiter to be installed, and then total shut off of electricity.

Yeah, I know. If the bills not paid then we all gets tuck.

Well ..... stick me. This is the antithesis of humanity. We are **supposed** to be a social animal. We also have intelligence and morals.

THIS

SHOULD

NEVER

HAPPEN.

I sincerely believe this is murder just as sure as someone having stabbed him to death would have been murder. He was ninety three fucking years old.

God DAMN it all to hell.

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Taverner

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message

1. ABSOLUTELY THAT IS MURDER

Yet, our fucked up capitalist system will say he's his own victim....

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Sydnie

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:41 PM
Response to Original message

2. They are not allowed to do that in my state

From November through March, they can't shut you off because people need it for heat.

That is totally insane!

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DCKit

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #2

29. Many northern states have the same law, for exactly this reason.

In this case, the utility should have known better. MI is often brutal in the winter and there is no excuse for this to have happened.

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Vinca

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:41 PM
Response to Original message

3. Yes. nt

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Liberal_in_LA

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message

4. To act in a way that will probably lead to a person's death (even if they owe $). Yes, that's murder

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hlthe2b

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message

5. Death from hypothermia-- corporatist neglect are sure to increase

along with death from starvation as food banks are pushed to the limits and there are fewer resources to get food to the home-bound, those without family or able friends. I hate to be so negative, but preventable deaths of all kinds, including suicide will surely accompany the next few years... Feel helpless? I surely do and quite a bit frightened.

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tkmorris

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message

6. Negligent homicide

The intent wasn't to kill, but it was certainly a foreseeable outcome. I hope they get charged, even though I know they won't be.

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Stinky The Clown

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #6

9. In this case, 'they' are, in fact, 'they'

It was the city government that did this.

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ZombieHorde

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message

7. Was Terri Shiavo a mercy killing, or was she allowed to die?

I don't know the answer, but I like your question.

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SocialRealist

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message

8. Criminally negligent homicide, at the very least.

Didn't anyone check to see if the home was occupied? Or did they just sneak up, install the device, and leave?

Heartless bastards.

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L0oniX

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Mon Jan-26-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message

10. No different than being denied health care for lack of money and dieing.

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NoSheep

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #10

27. I agree.

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MrSlayer

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message

11. No, of course not.

You have to pay your bills if you want the heat on, that's the way it is for everybody. This is sad but it's not even close to murder.

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Crunchy Frog

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Tue Jan-27-09 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #11

32. He should have gotten a job so he could pay his bills.

Lazy old fuck.

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MrSlayer

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Tue Jan-27-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #32

44. The story did say that he had the bills with money attached.

Edited on Tue Jan-27-09 07:58 PM by MrSlayer

And didn't send them. He had the money, he just didn't pay. It's a shame no one was there to see that he was taken care of. To call this murder is beyond ridiculous.

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bobbolink

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Wed Jan-28-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #32

49. ..........................

:applause:

Doncha just luuuuuuv "progressives"?

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leftofthedial

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message

12. no. I think it is capitalism.

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undergroundpanther

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Tue Jan-27-09 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #12

35. Capitalism is murder

Wish the rich pig capitalists would die in the cold

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:24 PM
Response to Original message

13. I'd have to say no.

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ThomCat

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message

14. Hell yes. Murdered for being poor.

x(

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Fire1

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #14

16. Without a doubt. 'getting stuck' is freeper rhetoric.

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The Doctor.

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Mon Jan-26-09 06:55 PM
Response to Original message

15. And if a man with children, and no where else to take them, brutalizes the utility worker

to prevent him from shutting off the power?

Jail... for defending his family.

There must be a law that prevents utility companies from suspending service between October and April, and anywhere the temps drop below 50ºf in a given month.

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malaise

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message

17. Of course it's murder

Fuck them.

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blonndee

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message

18. This makes my heart hurt.

How can we be this?

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YankeyMCC

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message

19. It's a stark example of the unjustness

of an economic system that puts acquireming wealth as the primary purpose of work rather than human quality of life.

The law is immoral.

The result is horrible.

I don't think you can call it murder though because it is the result of to many unjust and immoral decisions within a system and not easily if at all possible to assign specific quilt.

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Crunchy Frog

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message

20. It's only murder if the person in question was a fetus.

Life only counts if it's in the female reproductive tract. :sarcasm:

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fascisthunter

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message

21. We are Supposed to be Social Animals, however the sociopaths run most things

Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 07:55 PM by fascisthunter

what does a sociopath say in regards to this: "it's just business"

no, it's called being a sociopath and most people thankfully aren't as sick.

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cynatnite

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Mon Jan-26-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message

22. It's a lot of things, but murder...no. n/t

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Fire1

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Mon Jan-26-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #22

23. How about 'negligent homicide?'

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cynatnite

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #23

28. As I understand it...that wouldn't be an option either...

I'm not a lawyer, but I understand negligent homicide to be brought against people who allow someone in their care to die. It wouldn't apply here. IMO, criminal charges are not an option in this instance. However, I do think the family should sue the company over this.

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vadawg

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Tue Jan-27-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #28

36. yup, i think it will be a civil matter, unless theres

something we are not hearing, i dont see criminal intent.

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Prophet 451

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Tue Jan-27-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #28

42. How about constructive homicide?

My training is in English law so I'm not sure if this applies in the States but since the corporation created the circumstances under which the man died and since the "reasonable man test" would say that a reasonable man would be able to foresee this eventuality, I think a constructive homicide case could be brought against the company. The company were either creating or reckless to teh dangers involved.

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Zywiec

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Tue Jan-27-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #28

43. "I do think the family should sue the company over this"

Sure, the family that didn't care enough about their 93 year old relative to help him from freezing to death? Hopefully they can cash in on his unfortunate passing.

:eyes:

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dustbunnie

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Mon Jan-26-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message

24. Terrible.

It is murder, or at the very least, callous indifference.

Also terrible that a 93-year-old man was so alone, perhaps a little muddled, or maybe just didn't know how to ask for help. If only he had found a way to get to his neighbor's house.

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catnhatnh

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:00 PM
Response to Original message

25. Yes it is...

the only purpose of a "limiter" is to stop people in the last desperate throes of survival from profligately using their last power source from preventing freezing and they knew that. There has never been another reason to throttle electrical use.

Before the "limiter" he could have turned on his oven element and huddled by it heaped in blankets and hoped to live to see one more spring. Instead he sat by a stove capable of saving his life and froze to death as a utility legally cut it's losses.

Tomorrow and the next day the utility will explain why the "CORPSICLE" is not their fault or how his living till April might have cost every subscriber .0000000017 per KWH.

An old man froze to death because that was an acceptable outcome.

And is living something the ratepayers should have to subsidize?

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Stinky The Clown

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Tue Jan-27-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #25

45. Actually, limiters serve another purpose .......

.... our utility put them on customers' AC systems (only) on a voluntary basis. They used them in AC season during extraordinarily high use. They would cut everyone's AC off for 30 minutes on a rolling basis. For this, they gave a modest little discount each month ... maybe 5 or 10 bucks ... I don't recall.

They haven't done this in a few years.

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treestar

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message

26. It isn't murder, but it does indict this society as one that had no place for this

man to go. If he couldn't afford the heat, then there should be a shelter.

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aikoaiko

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Mon Jan-26-09 09:28 PM
Response to Original message

30. Not murder.

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area51

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Mon Jan-26-09 10:11 PM
Response to Original message

31. Murder.

The power company could've let him pay his bill off in installments, could've worked something out with him. Fsckers.

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voc

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Tue Jan-27-09 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #31

33. Yes it was Murder

to willfully cause the death of another. Premeditated. I don't buy they didn't know the guy was in there.
May he RIP. May they rot in hell!

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Duer 157099

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Tue Jan-27-09 04:20 AM
Response to Original message

34. What about when a homeless person dies of exposure?

I understand the outrage in this case, but I don't see the distinction between this, where the man at least still had a home to live in, and the countless thousands who die on the streets for the same reason.

It's beyond cruel in all cases, imho, and an outrage in a so-called "civilized" country.

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bobbolink

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Wed Jan-28-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #34

50. Yes, that is included, also.

We are a sociopathic nation.

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Hekate

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Tue Jan-27-09 04:53 AM
Response to Original message

37. Yes

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orleans

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Tue Jan-27-09 05:17 AM
Response to Original message

38. i say yes, a form of murder

what the fuck did the electric company think would happen?

limiting the heat? and then it needs to be reset or it doesn't work? what a bizarre fucking thing that is.

wonder who pulled the plug on this guy?

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TWiley

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Tue Jan-27-09 05:35 AM
Response to Original message

39. Install a device that limits / cuts off oxygen to the brain and lets see.

Thank God the shareholders got their cut.

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elleng

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Tue Jan-27-09 05:59 AM
Response to Original message

40. No

a 'heartless fucking law' cannot be guilty of murder, or any other crime.

The mayor, county commissioners, governor, and state legislature can and should see to it that these devices don't operate in such circumstances.

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Prophet 451

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Tue Jan-27-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message

41. Legally, no

The definition of murder is quite strict and since what the company did was legal, the result doesn't qualify as murder.

Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't totally immoral and that the company is not liable for his death in various other ways ('m not sure if you guys have a corporate homicide law there).

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lonestarnot

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Tue Jan-27-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message

46. Murder and a damn crying shame! Pitiful!

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varelse

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Tue Jan-27-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message

47. Yes, that's murder

As surely as if they'd shot him, only a lot more cruel, impersonal, and painful.

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NaturalHigh

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Tue Jan-27-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message

48. It's at least negligent homicide...

and it is morally reprehensible.

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