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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 02:24 PM
Original message
Torturer's Own Lawyer Says Holder Will Have to Prosecute
Edited on Thu Jan-29-09 02:26 PM by kpete
Torturers are Terrified of Eric Holder
Submitted by Bob Fertik on January 29, 2009 - 1:27pm.

"If he says it was torture, he has to do something."

... their thoughts are turning to nightmares:

"Once Holder said that (waterboarding is torture) I got nervous," said one lawyer who represents a CIA official involved in the interrogation program, who asked not to be identified talking about a legally sensitive matter. "If he says it was torture, he has to do something."


Here's what the lawyers are worried about:

In a response carefully vetted by Obama's White House lawyers, Holder responded that "no one is above the law. But where it is clear that a government agent has acted in 'reasonable and good-faith reliance on Justice Department legal opinions' authoritatively permitting his conduct, I would find it difficult to justify commencing a full-blown criminal investigation, let alone a prosecution."


Each of the bolded words has extremely important meanings.

* "Agent" means guys who take orders, not give them. That means the guys who gave the orders (or wrote the legal memos) are not safe from Holder.

* "Reasonable and good-faith reliance" excludes "unreasonable" and "bad-faith reliance." So torturers who committed outrageous acts are not safe from Holder.

* "Authoritatively" requires a formal order from a direct superior. Torturers who acted on their own or without orders from their superiors are not safe from Holder.


And here's where Holder's investigation is likely to begin:

precisely when and under what circumstances did abusive interrogations of detainees begin? How were the Justice Department legal opinions prepared—and what went into the decisions by senior Bush administration officials to approve waterboarding as policy in the first place?


Torture began months before the OLC memos were written, which puts the first torturers in grave legal jeopardy.

The legal memos were written on instruction from George Bush himself because George Tenet refused to allow torture without explicity White House authorization.

The decision to include waterboarding was made by all the Principals - Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, Powell, and Gonzales. They were all informed that waterboarding was torture, but they approved it anyway.

Bottom line: Bush and his torturers have very good reasons to be terrified of Eric Holder.

more at:
http://www.democrats.com/torturers-are-terrified-of-eric-holder
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Say it again "Bush and his torturers have very good reasons to be terrified of Eric Holder."
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And you know who I'd personally like to see in cuffs the most?
Arlen Specter

that sanctimonious son of a bitch is nothing but a scumbag enabler like the rest of them - with the added feature of smug doubletalk. He knows it's wrong with his words, and helps it along with his actions.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I want EVERYONE who knew and did not stop WAR CRIMES charged and convicted.
Yes (Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Gonzo, Yoo and Pelosi) I am looking at you
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Claiming someone can torture "in good faith" is bullshit
Edited on Thu Jan-29-09 03:49 PM by Solly Mack
Torture is against the law...redefining torture doesn't change this...claiming some methods aren't torture doesn't change this..claiming some lawyer told you could do it legally doesn't change it either

Claiming you only tortured because some lawyer wrote an opinion saying torture isn't torture is just plain bullshit


Some lawyer saying you can break the law doesn't mean you have a "reasonable and good-faith reliance" excuse for breaking the law

To even claim such an excuse is the exact same as saying you didn't know that torture was illegal and ANY CIA agent claiming they don't know torture is illegal is a LIAR.

Bush implemented a torture policy...and that was and IS illegal...EVERYONE who followed that policy is guilty. Everyone who wrote a memo justifying that policy is guilty.


Seriously, how fucking stupid am I supposed to believe CIA agents are exactly? Oh, gee, your honor, the lawyer said I could do what has been illegal for years and years because he wrote a memo saying I could...so that's why I did it...I didn't know any better or any different...I didn't know water-boarding was illegal and I acted in good faith?

Bullshit







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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Nuremberg Redux.
In Republic Bizarro World, everyone forgot the "I was only following (illegal) orders" non-excuse.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. What was the name of the guy who "carried" the techniques from Gitmo
to Abu Ghraib? I think serious prosecutions ought to start from there and go up..
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Major General Geoffrey D. Miller
Geoffrey D. Miller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_D._Miller

Abu Ghraib General says she was told to treat Iraqis ‘like dogs’

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=551

Not so fast, General

A bipartisan call by senators to halt the retirement of the major general at the heart of the Abu Ghraib scandal suggests the abuse inquiry finally has a pulse.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/03/07/major_general/

Who is Geoffrey Miller?

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/05/b78956.html

I'll tell you who I think Geoffrey Miller is...he is the first man congress should put under oath and grill, in any real effort to get some answers about the torture and mistreatment of unarmed prisoners by bush mob.


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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thank you! I knew someone could come up with this guy for me.
We have to make sure he tells eveyone who told him to do what...
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Here is another BushCo Crony The dems might want to...
put under oath and question.

Lt. General William (Jerry) Boykin

December 15, 2003
Job Security For General Boykin

There is huge coverage of the capture of Saddam at the InstaPundit, and the Corner. However, one seemingly overlooked sidebar is this: the controversial General William (Jerry) Boykin (My Christian god is tougher than Allah!) has probably bought himself a bit of job security. Based on various reports, his group was involved in the capture of Saddam.

We find this in the recent New Yorker, by Seymour Hersh:

The Bush Administration has authorized a major escalation of the Special Forces covert war in Iraq. In interviews over the past month, American officials and former officials said that the main target was a hard-core group of Baathists who are believed to be behind much of the underground insurgency against the soldiers of the United States and its allies. A new Special Forces group, designated Task Force 121, has been assembled from Army Delta Force members, Navy seals, and C.I.A. paramilitary operatives, with many additional personnel ordered to report by January. Its highest priority is the neutralization of the Baathist insurgents, by capture or assassination. MORE...

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2003/12/job_security_fo.html

Lt. General Boykin...Task Force 121? 'Manhunts'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4156421

And then there's Brig. General Formica

Pentagon Study Describes Abuse by Units in Iraq
By ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON, June 16 — United States Special Operations troops employed a set of harsh, unauthorized interrogation techniques against detainees in Iraq during a four-month period in early 2004, long after approval for their use was rescinded, according to a Pentagon inquiry released Friday.

The investigation is the last of 12 major inquiries to be made public that focus on allegations of detainee abuse by American personnel in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, and the first to focus on Special Operations troops, who operate with more latitude than other military units. It detailed harsh treatment that continued at isolated bases even after the abuses first surfaced at the Abu Ghraib prison.

Special Operations interrogators gave some detainees only bread or crackers and water if they did not cooperate, according to the investigation, by Brig. Gen. Richard P. Formica of the Army. One prisoner was fed only bread and water for 17 days. Other detainees were locked for as many as seven days in cells so small that they could neither stand nor lie down, while interrogators played loud music that disrupted their sleep.

The inquiry also determined that some detainees were stripped naked, drenched with water and then interrogated in air-conditioned rooms or in cold weather. General Formica said it appeared that Navy Seals had used that technique in the case of one detainee who later died during questioning in Mosul in 2004, but he reported that he had no specific allegations that the use of the technique was related to that death. More...

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/sf/nyt6_17_06_2.htm

Torture Before and After Abu Ghraib

Before and After Abu Ghraib, a US Unit Abused Detainees
By Eric Schmitt and Carolyn Marshall
The New York Times

Sunday 19 March 2006

As the Iraqi insurgency intensified in early 2004, an elite Special Operations forces unit converted one of Saddam Hussein's former military bases near Baghdad into a top-secret detention center. There, American soldiers made one of the former Iraqi government's torture chambers into their own interrogation cell. They named it the Black Room.

In the windowless, jet-black garage-size room, some soldiers beat prisoners with rifle butts, yelled and spit in their faces and, in a nearby area, used detainees for target practice in a game of jailer paintball. Their intention was to extract information to help hunt down Iraq's most-wanted terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, according to Defense Department personnel who served with the unit or were briefed on its operations.

The Black Room was part of a temporary detention site at Camp Nama, the secret headquarters of a shadowy military unit known as Task Force 6-26. Located at Baghdad International Airport, the camp was the first stop for many insurgents on their way to the Abu Ghraib prison a few miles away. More...

http://www.truthout.org/article/torture-before-and-after-abu-ghraib

TASK FORCE 6-26: Inside Camp Nama; In Secret Unit's 'Black Room,' A Grim Portrait of U.S. Abuse

By ERIC SCHMITT AND CAROLYN MARSHALL
Published: March 19, 2006

The Justice Department inspector general is investigating complaints of detainee abuse by Task Force 6-26, a senior law enforcement official said. The only wide-ranging military inquiry into prisoner abuse by Special Operations forces was completed nearly a year ago by Brig. Gen. Richard P. Formica, and was sent to Congress. More...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE6DD1F31F93AA25750C0A9609C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=6

I have always thought that political pressure on Bush and Blair led to the abuse of these prisoners.

Bush ans Blair looked like fools as long as Saddam was on the loose. Then there was the WMD stash that was never found. Then there was the pissed off Iraqis killing GIs instead of throwing flowers like Bush promised us...then there was the American election for president in November of 2004. The Pressure was on Bush, so he put the pressure on anyone that he thought might gain him some relief in Iraq for all the shit that had hit the fan and was making him look like the dumb ass that he really was. I'll bet you Karl Rove was egging the torture policy on above all the other necons in the gang.








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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. The Men in the Shadows -- Hunting al-Zarqawi
Task Force 145 Is an Elite Special Ops Unit That Spent Years Tracking al-Zarqawi

By CHRIS CUOMO and EAMON MCNIFF, ABC News Law and Justice Unit
June 9, 2006

Snip...

In 2004, an early incarnation of the task force reportedly set up shop in one of Hussein's former military bases outside Baghdad, converting it into a top-secret detention and interrogation center.

The center was reportedly called Camp NAMA, said to be a ribald acronym for Nasty Ass Military Area, with a reported slogan of "no blood, no foul." One of the most reported aspects of Camp NAMA was the "Black Room" -- an interrogation cell adorned with 18-inch hooks jutting from the ceiling, remnants of Hussein's torture chambers.

When the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib was made public in April 2004, attention shifted next to the task force. Camp NAMA came under scrutiny and was later closed that summer amid charges of serious prisoner abuse.

"The reality is, there were no rules there," a Pentagon official said in the Times article.
MORE...

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Terrorism/story?id=2056386&page=1


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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm not holding my breath on this prosecution actually happening
Edited on Thu Jan-29-09 05:01 PM by NewJeffCT
At best, they'll say a few people did some bad things, slap a few wrists and have them apologize and say, "now don't do it again, or no dinner for you!"
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't care that everyone below Yoo goes free, I just want the ones above him.
If there are no good reasons to investigate those who relied on Yoo's opinion for their actions then OK, but those above him should have known better.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yoo admitted today that W authorized torture at least 3x


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123318955345726797.html

On the advice of his intelligence advisers, the president could have authorized coercive interrogation methods like those used by Israel and Great Britain in their antiterrorism campaigns. (He could even authorize waterboarding, which he did three times in the years after 9/11.)

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. With this I go into the night with a smile on my face. A Huge Smile.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. Just remember how time should still during Holder's hearing
and everything got quiet when he said Waterboarding is torture, the right wingers heads were exploding when he said that.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. And it was right at the beginning of the hearing....
There were TWO sounds:
RWinger heads exploding
and
Everyone else in the WORLD exhaling for the first time in 8 years...
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