A funeral for the Catholic church

I went to a wake at a Catholic church tonight. The man who died was a great guy. He was tall, with a booming voice, a great laugh and a very charismatic personality. He was much loved. There were 700 people at the wake. So we stood in line a long time waiting to talk to his family.

The first thing I noticed when we walked in was a small box in the corner of the lobby with the word MISSIONS on it. It was a collection box. In front of the box on the table was a pile of envelopes addressed to a local charity that runs a nursing home and a food pantry for the poor. Those items brought back memories of my childhood when I went to Catholic school. We collected money for the missions and we donated food and gently used clothing to that charity. I can still remember the huge pile of canned goods we collected every Christmas for the food pantry and the thrill it was one year to be part of the group of kids selected to help deliver the food to the nuns who ran the food pantry. I also remember organizing a carnival for the missions one summer and how exciting it was to take our profits to our parish priest who had come to our classrooms at school to show us pictures of homes, a school and a church being built with our donations to that mission in a far away country in South America.

I felt like I was home again. I drifted away from the Catholic church as a teenager and struggled for years with the guilt. As I got older, the church changed and I just couldn't buy into it anymore. Mass became a chore and I no longer felt close to God as I sat in church. The only reason I went was because my parents thought it was important. I had learned at an early age to pick my battles with them and not going to Mass was a battle I never was courageous enough to take on. Their faith was ingrained in them, mine seemed to disintegrate as I got older.

When I had children, I wanted them to grow up learning about religion and was also determined to allow them to make their own choice about God and religion once they were old enough to choose. I didn't want them to struggle as I had. But I knew they couldn't make a choice unless they experienced religion and so I had them both baptized and even put one of them in Catholic school. So while my kids were growing up, I continued to pretend I was a faithful Catholic.

Then about the time I realized I just didn't have the faith I had as a child and never would have it again, the pedophilia scandal in the Catholic church happened. The church no longer promoted the social justice causes I had so loved as a child but seemed to focus all of its energies on stopping abortion. That's when I knew I was done. There was no way I could support or even pretend to support a church that covered up child molestation and was no longer familiar to me. And since then I have only gone into a Catholic church for funerals.

So tonight when I went to the funeral and saw the collection box for the missions and the local charity, I was encouraged.

We had to stand in line for an hour to see the family. The line extended down a side aisle of the church and across the back and up another aisle. We walked by dozens of pews as the line moved along. I was talking to friends and not really looking around the church much. Then as we got closer to the front of the church, I noticed that at the end of every pew there were hymnals and little cards with ball point pens lying nearby. I assumed they were collection envelopes, and like so many churches, they were laying there for the convenience of the parishioners. I finally picked one up and was stunned by what I saw.

They weren't envelopes. They were postcards in sets of three. Two were addressed to the senators from Missouri and to the US congressman for this district. The message on the postcards was asking for the reps to please vote against the "evil" Freedom of Choice Act. The message talked about murdering the unborn and its impact on America.

My heart sank. This church had one little table in the corner of the lobby devoted to real social justice causes and literally hundreds of postcards condemning a woman's right to choose. I pictured the pews in this church full of people. I counted the pews and realized that on a Sunday with a full church, it would be easy to collect several hundred of these completed postcards. At every Mass.

And I couldn't help but choke back a tear for the little mission box and its contents on that table in the lobby.

What happened to the Catholic church of my childhood? In Catholic schools, do they no longer encourage the kids to bring in food for the poor and coins for the missions? Does the priest instead go from classroom to classroom showing the kids pictures of aborted fetuses? Have we created a couple generations of Catholics who are hyper focused on abortion while ignoring the poor?

When I graduated from the 8th grade, we had to write an essay telling how we were going to make the world a better place. I will always be grateful for knowing at age 13 exactly what I needed to do to accomplish that goal. I had been taught by example and allowed to experience the joy of helping others and I knew how to change the world and make it better.

So tonight I grieve for the church that no longer exists. It seems fitting that I the only time I go to church is for a funeral.

The first church I went to, the first classroom I sat in, is about three miles away from this table. Our Lady of Mercy. I don't think I can bear to go back and see what she has become.

And since both of my parents are dead, I don't expect to ever step foot in it again.

I was close to my uncle who was a very liberal long haired priest. When we had family gatherings he said Mass. In living rooms, at parks, on the shore of a lake. It was awesome. Those were my favorite Masses.

He always brought a fellow priest or a parishioner who had no family to our Thanksgiving dinners. And he always sat at the table in my grandmother's kitchen with the kids while all the other grownups sat in the dining room.

I so miss being able to confide in him and ask him questions about my wavering faith in the Catholic church. He always said it was more important to believe in God than to be faithful to a religion.

He is in a nursing home and has Alzheimers. I so wish I could still sit and talk to him about Catholicism. I miss those talks.

Many organized religions are inherently evil.

So, according to them they took the VIP trip to heaven, they're "saved" without having any of the temptation, pain, failings, sins, etc.

So they're lucky then, right?

EVERY newborn is a potential Catholic.

The Church has become a strange thing. So irrelevent, so tone deaf to the real problems people have.

Definitely not the same church I grew up in. Although possibly it always was this way and I am just opening my eyes to it now.

if you are a believer who misses community. It's the same church, just not under the Pope's bootheel.

I'm afraid that's what changed. Vatican II alarmed them all and forced them to rally around arch conservatives since then, desperately trying to avoid more uncomfortable changes. When that happens, they start attacking women, which was always one of the favorite church pastimes, anyway.

What's really ironic to me is that this Pope did away with Limbo for unbaptized infants. They all go right up to heaven now. That seems to have knocked the doctrinal underpinnings out from under their antiabortionism, but none of them has quite twigged to it yet.

In any case, the church has changed. It's gotten less charitable and more rigid.

But don't worry. This is a journey we're on, not a destination.

But I am wondering if this was just a way to get all those aborted fetuses into Heaven.

Individual churches can be pretty liberal or way out there.

It's a local, individual thing. I guarantee you.

In fact, the rapid spread of AIDS in Africa can be directly tied to the condemnation of the use of condoms by Catholic and other church missions there.

spell edit

Individual churches didn't adopt abortion as a cause on their own.

:)

:)

but we do operate the largest food bank in the county which serves all in need, six days a week. The food bank also operate a program at two public elementary schools providing children who qualify for free school lunches with a backpack full of food for the weekend.

What individual parishes do or do not do varies widely. There are parishes in my community that do little or nothing about social justice. My parish is a Jesuit parish with a long history of working for economic justice and civil rights.

Churches can promote causes. They just can't promote candidates.

The reason they aren't is because the election's over.

is playing politics and should be taxed.

A church has the right to forbid things like abortion and gay sex to its members. It does not have the right to forbid them to everybody else!

That's where the line is, and it should be a firm one.

I'm sure a visit from an IRS man to all the bishops in the country will get the church to concentrate on more spiritual matters rather quickly.

and make it very illegal for churches to collect money to defeat issues. In MO, there was a stem cell research amendment on the ballot in 2006 that was nearly defeated by the churches. Their hate campaign was repulsive.

Now the church is just against things. Feeding people and helping them out of poverty have given way to opposing equal rights and stopping birth control.

I remember the church back in the 70s preaching against the ERA.

But your right. Imagine if all those efforts were put into bettering the condition of humanity, what a glorious day. But no, that would mean joining hands with groups like Population Connection (Zero Population growth) and others, who have this heretical view that overpopulation leads to human suffering and misery. Imagine that! Starving people are miserable.

*sigh* It's absolutely depressing!

and formed a "reformed" Catholic Church that welcomes gay congregants, among other things. The Vatican is as pissed as posible about it, too.

Vatican will move on.

Most of what they're *doing* right now is the PR campaign to return from all the sexual abuse lawsuits.

And at my school at least, they never showed pictures of abortion ever. More of an emphasis was put on helping the poor. However, I believe in the Vatican that is not true anymore.

I'm half Irish, and have been doing much research into my family's roots lately; all four of my greatgrandparents were born in Ireland and emigrated to Canada in the early to mid 1800s. It was fun to get to visit the community there in Canada; their descendants have spread through North America but many remained, and the feeling of kinship in the community is warm and welcoming (at least for returning cousins). What I found interesting is this: does the feeling of kinship help Canada accept ideas like universal health care easier than in the U.S.? For the people I met were fully aware that half of the town were close relatives, by blood or by marriage, and I sense a feeling of "we're all in this together".

Now that the US economy is sinking like a stone, perhaps we will also achieve a sense of "We're all in this together."

are taught critical thinking, which helps when their conservatives try to feed them mindless propaganda.

But instead I found your thoughtful and heartbreaking OP. I'm still a practicing Catholic precisely because of the emphasis on social justice that you remember so fondly from your childhood and because if I leave - if I cede the Church to the hatemongers and the misogynists and the more-Catholic-than-the-Pope judgmental doctrinaires, then they will ultimately win. I refuse to let the beautiful and progressive message of Christ be stolen by such Pharisees.

There is still a tradition of social justice in the Catholic Church. It is weary and beaten-down, weak from decades of alienation, pressure, and crackdowns from the increasingly reactionary, rigid, and thoroughly un-Christlike Vatican. But it is still there, and if I were to abandon it, if I were to allow the vicious right-wingers their claim to being the only "true" Catholics, then I would feel as if I were betraying a very important part of me. I fully understand and respect your feelings of alienation, and to some extent share them. I can only hope that in time the Church will again be a place where progressive spirits will be welcome as brothers and sisters in Christ, rather than scorned as apostates. Christ was a radical, unorthodox agitator, railing against the hidebound and hypocritical dogmatic authorities of his time. I cannot think that He would not expect us to be the same.

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you have done for the least of these brothers of mine, you have done for me." - Matthew 25:40

Thank you for your post. I am glad to hear there are still Catholics who are passionate about social justice.

And I will always be grateful to the Catholic church of my youth for instilling in me a sense of the importance of social justice.

I couldn't do it anymore, myself.

I've been struggling for years with the same feelings. I want my children to understand the faith I was raised in, but the last time I attended mass, the pastor defended his decision to tell us how to vote in the 2004 election. His response to criticism of his parishioners was "If I don't tell you right from wrong, then who will". My daughters both looked at me in fear that I would respond right then and there. I calmly explained afterward that the priest should have instructed his flock to look at the issues and voting records of the candidates, and base your vote on those factors; and he had no right to tell people that a vote for a pro-choice candidate was worse than a vote for a pro-death penalty or pro-war for profit candidate. 'Thou shalt not kill' applies in both cases.
I have also explained that if it comes down to making a choice between faith and religon, choose faith. God isn't Catholic, and I guess neither am I anymore.
Peace.

the pastor gave a sermon about rules of the church that are often broken. Leaving Mass right after communion, not genuflecting when entering the church, not kneeling when you are supposed to during Mass, etc. Then he said we needed to remember that if a Catholic got married outside of a Catholic church it was a sin for a Catholic to attend the wedding. I immediately remembered my sister's wedding. She married a Jew and had a non denominational ceremony where our uncle the priest had not only attended but stood in front of my sister and her husband and gave them his blessing.

I never went back to Mass at that church again.

homeless shelters, and old age homes. Some of these directly reference the Catholic Worker Movement and Dorothy Day.

Thirty years ago I was taught in Catholic school about the evils of war, capital punishment, and abortion in equal measure. And about the need for social justice and reducing poverty.

The Catholic church which I very rarely go to is known as a blend of the city's rich, the gay and artsy community, and the Spanish-speaking. I do not go often enough to know how much they preach about what. I sat in the pastor's office one day and saw his bookshelves -- which had plenty of Chomsky and liberation theology and social justice topics.

I wonder if some who proudly proclaim they are ex-catholics are as socially conscious as they claim to be.

I'm no fan of the current Pope, but the Catholics I know are not cruel, rigid people.

I honestly don't remember the church ever talking about abortion when I was a kid in the 60s. But I am told that our parish was considered very liberal at the time.

which -- looking it up now -- I see was the same time as the Roe v Wade ruling -- 1973.

homeless shelters, and old age homes. Some of these directly reference the Catholic Worker Movement and Dorothy Day.

Thirty years ago I was taught in Catholic school about the evils of war, capital punishment, and abortion in equal measure. And about the need for social justice and reducing poverty.

The Catholic church which I very rarely go to is known as a blend of the city's rich, the gay and artsy community, and the Spanish-speaking. I do not go often enough to know how much they preach about what. I sat in the pastor's office one day and saw his bookshelves -- which had plenty of Chomsky and liberation theology and social justice topics.

I always want to go but only go when the church is empty. I love Europe because they never lock the doors and you can go in and light a candle, say a prayer and not have to deal with anything else. Just me and God. No man. Try it sometime, it is very refreshing.

One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, "Which is the first of all the commandments?"
29
Jesus replied, "The first is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!
30
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
31
The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
32
The scribe said to him, "Well said, teacher. You are right in saying, 'He is One and there is no other than he.'
33
And 'to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself' is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34


Solitary prayer is a good thing, but solitary prayer without community and service to others is like a book with empty pages.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course.

Matthew 6:4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you


I do some things with community and some things without anyone knowing.

is private communication between themself and the Lord.

Like you said, in my youth we did quite a bit for the missions. I remember a group of nuns coming to my school to give a presentation about a school that the Church was building in Lesotho. We heard far more about the doing good for the poor than we ever heard about abortion or homosexuality.

Your experience with the Church is all too similar to mine. Thanks for posting.

While there are bright spots in today's practices--the male authoritarianism of the rest is hurting us all

lump all of Christianity or Judaism together that way.

I am a United Methodist, and we are most definitely NOT anti female. Methodist women have had full-ordination rights since 1957...yes...1957. While the Bishop of the New England Methodists is currently male, the Bishop whom he succeeded was a woman. The current President of the United Methodist Council of Bishops is a woman.

As far as abortion is concerned, while it is not considered to be - desirable - if you will, the UMC recognizes the the need for it to be legal.

Most other mainline Protestant Churches also ordain women.

While not really knowing all of the tenets of Judaism, I do know there are women Rabbis.

So, while I do not see that "The religions of Abraham" are "steeped in anti-femaleness", I KNOW Methodism is not.

women's ordination, and it came later, but now our Presiding Bishop (head of the church in US) is a woman. (And an accomplished one at that!)

And there are most definitely female rabbis - I believe in both the Reform and Conservative movements. Reconstructionist, too.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches stubbornly hold to their no girls allowed rules. And many of the more conservative Protestant sects - the Southern Baptists, for instance, think women should prepare meals and care for children and get out of the way for the men... But it's certainly not something universal to Christianity.

Hmmm, never anything about the extreme views some Evangelical and Orthodox hold, but hey, it's Catholicism. Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater.

:shrug:

anyone who is or had been RC to find anything to quarrel with in your OP.

And I say that as a baptized, communion-ed, and confirmed Catholic of many years ago. Don't get me wrong, I think even less of the german religions (sects mostly to tell the truth) than I do about Rome.

Climb off that cross, brother, Jesus needs more room. How about the shitstorm Mormon's have taken. I would bet you that our Mormon members at DU would trade places on the "flack"-o-meter. Scientologists? Ever heard of them? Right wing fundies? You're right; I NEVER hear them bashed on DU.

Get over yourself. All religion is open for discussion and all religion IS discussed.

It is a common occurrence on DU.

It's an authentic lament of pain for the rightward movement of a church she knew and loved. And there absolutely is a lot of reason for pain and anger among Catholics, whether former or still practicing, who hold progressive and liberal beliefs.

Overall, I completely agree with you - a good many people on DU have an almost Jack Chick-like hatred of the Catholic Church that they do not direct towards other equally patriarchal/orthodox religions. But I know those posts when I see them, and they are replete with references to pedophile priests (as if every single priest diddled little boys) or the "Nazi Pope" or some other ugly slander. All I see in proud2blib's post was pain, a pain that I, as a practicing Catholic stuck in a conservative town/parish, feel all too acutely.

I learned on guitar in the mid 60's
got me to thinking about the negative
effects of religion on society.
40 years later and I still can't figure
out why people tolerate the hypocrisy.

"Cannons Of Christianity"

Christian cannons have fired at my days
With the warning beneath the holy blaze
And bow to our authority
Say the cannons of Christianity

Oh the children will be sent to schools
Minds of clay are molded to their rules
Learn to fear all of eternity
Warn the cannons of Christianity

Holy hands will count the money raised
Like a king the Lord is richly praised
On a cross of diamond majesty
Say the cannons of Christianity

Missionaries will travel on crusades
The word is given, the heathen souls are saved
Conversions to our morality
Sigh the cannons of Christianity

Come the wars and turn the rules around
Defend your soul on the battle ground
And the Lord will march beside me
Drone the cannons of Christianity

Cathedral walls will glitter with their gold
And the sermons speak through silver robes
Building castles amidst the poverty
Say the cannons of Christianity

Worship now and wash your sins away
Drop the coins, fall to your knees and pray
Cleanse the world of all hypocrisy
Smile the cannons of Christianity

Christian cannons have fired at my days
With the warning beneath the holy blaze
And bow to our authority
Say the cannons of Christianity

Cry the cannons of Christianity

Phil Ochs

Catholic churches are emptying faster than the US Treasury under Bush.

In the parish where I grew up, we used to have five masses every Sunday and they were standing room only. I went back a few months ago. They now have three masses and you could throw a rock through the church during any of them and not hit anyone.

This is why the church is closing churches and consolidating parishes at a record rate.

Now, the mega-churches, which are short of theology and big on hairdos and SUVs -- that's where you'll find the crowds.

away from their old parishes and/or stayed in their old parishes but gotten old and died. It's not happening everywhere, though. In my archdiocese, they can't build new churches and schools fast enough.

And it was very nicely told.

I left the church because my Mom left when she was still young.
I did 8 years in that church, and I was a altar boy for awhile at St. Francis of Assisi in Astoria, Queens NYC.
She had a good reason for leaving.
My grandfather had died (her dad) and she called the parish monsignor to come to the hospital and read the last rites.
He told her he couldn't come, because he was watching the New York Mets baseball game.

The nuns tortured me, and the priests would scold me and hit me pretty much at every opportunity.

The 8 years I spent in Catholic grade school scarred me for life.
They even yanked me out of the line for the confirmation ceremony because one boy pushed another boy into me and I fell.
They said I was a trouble maker and made me sit alone in the church basement as the organ thundered above my head.
I cried and I cried because I knew what was coming.
They told my Mom I was a "trouble maker" and she beat me for 12 blocks as we walked home.

Then the mother of one of those boys apologized to my Mom for her son's mistake that I got blamed for.
I thought my Mom was going to head down to the church and kill someone that's how mad she was.

We never went back.

Church.
It ain't what it used to be.

and asked for the pastor to come by and visit her. And could he bring communion. The lady who answered the phone said well we don't really have a pastor right now and maybe I should call the diocese. (Found out later the longtime pastor was caught up in a pedophile scandal, for which he was later exonerated, but they had transferred him from this parish and priests from neighboring parishes were coming over to say Mass on Sundays.)

My parents were charter members of this parish. Their donations had helped build two churches and a school. They had put 4 kids through that school. My dad was an usher. My mom was one of the ladies who cleaned the church on Saturdays. For my entire childhood. They had been members for 50 years.

So I got out my mom's parish directory and found a name I recognized on the board of the church. I had gone to school with his kids. I called this man and said my mom wanted communion and could he help find a priest to come see her. He said of course he would help.

Next day that man himself brought communion to my mom. He apologized and said there really wasn't a priest available and he was a lay minister and was qualified to give her communion.

Still blows me away. This is one of the largest parishes in Johnson County and they couldn't get a priest to come see my mom. Wow.

For all its problems, the Catholic Church still does promote a lot of social justice causes. Anyone who has ever been helped by Catholic Charities, just a wonderful organization if you've ever known them.

My home parish in Maryland goes twice a year down to Mexico to help build homes with running water and electricity for those without those ameneties. They took the inititative in creating a "safe nights" program for the homeless across the county where various churches have agreed to take in the homeless (even those that the shelters have rejected) every week. The youth group each year goes to one city in the country and helps repair homes for the poor, a la Habitat for Humanity. If you think that the Catholic Church has abandoned social justice issues, then you just aren't looking hard enough.

So there were postcards for congressional representatives regarding the issue of abortion. So what? The Catholic Church is going to be opposed to abortion, and that's how it is. They've also voiced opposition to the death penalty. They've also voiced opposition to unjustified wars, including the one in Iraq. Yet, I've never, ever, ever gone to a Catholic mass where the priest has stood up during his homily and told the congregation that "You must vote for Candidate X" or "You must vote for Party X." Yes, the Church will voice its opinion on certain issues, but it is only on the issues themselves. It never (at least in my personal observation) has spilled over into actual tangible support of one candidate or party over another. And if it did, I would certainly make my voice known in opposition to that.

Perhaps your aversion to these postcards is justified. Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on this one issue. But then again, I've personally come across fellow Democrats whose seemingly only issue of concern is support of abortion rights. Universal health care, support of social programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, inititatives to help people in poverty; these issues are all quite in the background to such people. So the pendulum really does swing both ways.

Yet I remain a proud Democrat. And I too remain a proud Catholic.

There have been moments of heartbreak in my support and membership of both entities. And certainly I shared my disgust--as did most members of the Catholic faith--when the priest abuse scandals and resulting coverups came to light. But that was an organization flaw of the Church. And I think pressure from the Church's faithful to the Church leadership on that issue, and other issues as well (women in the priesthood, priests being allowed to marry, a reconsideration of the Church's position on birth control) is the best way to deal with it. Not throwing up our hands in defeat and walking away.

One of my proudest moments as a Catholic was when my pastor stood in front of the congregation and told everyone that universal health care was a universal human right, and one for which all Catholics should advocate. That's my church. That's putting what I believe to action. And that's why I don't share in your feelings of alienation towards the Church, no matter its notable flaws.

I thought I made it clear in my OP that this church was involved in SOME social justice. But those cards in the pews were about abortion. Not poverty. Not health care. Not ending the war. But abortion. One little box and a few envelopes in the lobby for social justice but hundreds of postcards about abortion.

The church has lost its way. I find that sad.

only set foot in a church for funerals, hardly a good way to gauge the life of a parish. You totally ignored all that the previous poster said about what his parish does to focus on the postcards. I can tell you the postcards were given out last Sunday, a one-time deal. The rest of a parish's work is ongoing and most of it you can't see by attending a wake in the church.

My entire family is Catholic. My uncle is a priest. My cousin is a nun. I understand what the Catholic church is doing. And no way are they only focusing on abortion as a one-time deal. Surely you don't believe that.

going on there.

I didn't say the Church didn't oppose abortion, I said the UCCB cards were a one-time deal.

Um, no.

...and even in your latter days as a practicing Catholic you admit that you basically were going through the motions, perhaps you didn't care to look what was going on. I can tell you from the perspective of someone who has remained a practicing Catholic, even considering some of its very notable problems, social justice is still a large component of the Catholic faith.

Perhaps your position on the abortion issue and the fact that the church's position is more or less diametrically opposed to what I'm guessing is your personal position on that issue obscures everything else, but that's the way the things are. The church is going to be opposed to abortion. Don't expect for that to change. Don't expect for church leaders to be headlining NARAL or Planned Parenthood conventions any day. It's not going to happen, whether you would want such a thing to happen or not.

I can only speak from my own personal observation, but from what I have seen there still exists a strong social justice component of the church's teaching, at least for those who seek to advocate and participate in such an approach.

All I've asked for, and all that I've observed about the church, is that they not actually involve themselves in partisian politics. That means overt support for any particular political party or candidate. I personally have yet to see any such behavior. If they want to concern themselves with certain issues, fine, although I'm still going to inevitably put my personal priorities on what I see the issues that I believe to be most important, whether that is in the secular world or in the spiritual world.

But, to be blunt here, if you think that the church has let its emphasis on social justice issues and ministry to the poor go fallow, I would encourge you to look deeper. It is most definitely still there.

Proof positive that the Church is about control and no longer about doing good works.

Churches can't campaign for candidates. Issues are okay.

Dominique, nique, nique, over every land he plods
And sings a little song
Never asking for reward
He just talks about the Lord
He just talks about the Lord

At a time when Johnny Lackland
Over England was the King
Dominique was in the backland
Fighting sin like anything

Without horse or fancy wagon
He crossed Europe up and down
Poverty was his companion
As he walked from town to town

To bring back the straying liars
And the lost sheep to the fold
He brought forth the Preaching Friars
Heaven's soldier's, brave and bold

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDhfhSCqbsQ
...........
Ah those were the days.

Like you,I grew up under the tutelage of great nuns and priests. I'm still an "occasional" catholic.......I go to mass eight or ten times per year, confession every couple of years, receive communion when I go, etc. I'm betting that my struggle and level of participation is representative of most catholics in this country today. Pretty sad.

I, and I think very many of us lapsed (not fallen) American catholics, am guilty of the sin of sloth.....aka laziness. I consistently use the priest scandal as an excuse not to actively participate. I'm torn by the political activism emanating from the pulpit on the issue of abortion. I KNOW abortion is a grave sin......but is it really the church's role to dictate policy in a secular society? Isn't it enough to influence by our caring and compassion? Mother Theresa didn't impose her beliefs in the halls of government or with fire and brimstone from a pulpit. She gave over her entire life to help the poorest among us. I'm convinced that's Christ's central message to us...."do unto others".

The catholic church is the "body of Christ" ....us. If we fail to participate, if we fail to work toward social change, if we fail to reach out to the most needy among us than it's our failure ...MY failure, not the church's.

for some day, you may need others to do unto you.

i find it hard to believe that christ didn't believe in the concept of karma.

after Vatican II, when they left religious life and the priesthood by the thousands, it really is up to us as individual Catholics to do more. We can't rely on nuns (there are none in my parish, the school has been entirely run by laity for more than fifteen years, prior to which we had only three sisters at the school) or on priests (often one to a parish, as in my parish; sometimes one priest covering two or three parishes) to direct us.
They're just not available today. You're right, WE have to take responsibility, not just complain about the Church as if all the problems are with priests and the hierarchy. We are all part of the Church.

as corporate sole. There you saw the Catholic Church as 700 people took the time and effort to console the family of the dead man and pray for his soul. (Well, presumably not all 700 consider themselves Catholic, but I hope you get my drift.)

Vatican II was only the beginning. Could John XXIII have foreseen a day when most American Catholics favor optional celibacy, approve of female priests and are recognizing our GLBT children? It's too bad that so many in power have been so afraid of change that they have hidden behind rules and regulations in a desperate attempt to retain that power. There is a battle now engaged between those who want to present the Church as perfect and unchanging and those who seek to see the Church become ever more just and ever more loving. Some fight by staying, others fight by leaving.

Look around and you will find a faith community waiting to welcome you. If that community isn't a local Catholic parish, take a look at what the Episcopalians, the Lutherans, the Methodists, or the UCC has on offer. (I list those only because I am familiar with them and in order of the closeness between their liturgies and the Catholic liturgies.) When Ecumenicism first was in the air, I like a lot of Catholics assumed that somehow all the Protestants "would come to their sense and come back to Rome". I've learned since then that Christ's Church is a lot bigger than we ever knew. I continue to be an active Catholic today both because of Communion (the Eucharist) and communion (community of saints). GO to where God calls you!

There really needs to be another Americanist Heresy.

in 1988 I was 3 mos pregnant and attempted to get married in my catholic church. I was told I had sinned, my kid was the product of sin and to my young ears it sounded like I was headed to hell with my bastard child. I went right over to the Methodist church where I was told God loved me and my child and that I could get married. That minister prayed with us, married us, and said if we ever needed anything to just call. 22 years later we are all just fine.

I'm not painting them all with the same broad brush but the hypocrisy is too much for me to handle.

would have ended up marrying at a j.p.'s office. He asked them if they loved each other, loved God, and usually, didn't make a huge fuss about any other details. They would marry in a little country church. He felt like he was filling a void.

One of my really good friends, a practicing Catholic, got pregnant fifteen years ago. The father moved back to Europe and left her and the baby. Her priest wouldn't baptize the baby. She was pretty pissed at him and never went back to that parish. She found another one who would, though.

J.P. but my parents and my husbands parents felt strongly that our marriage should be "blessed". It tore my heart apart to have that fucker past judgment on me and my child like that. I was young and sensitive and really didn't know how to speak up for myself. I felt like crap leaving that church. Here our parents and family are super supportive and this guy is basically condemning me to hell. Later I had people tell me I was a fool for even thinking they would perform the ceremony.

that our father has done alot for other people. He's almost 83 now, and suffers from Parkinsons. But he's my sweet Dad!

me. She finally found a priest who would but the church records office wrote "illegitimate daughter of" on my baptismal certificate. I had to go through twelve years of Catholic school with a copy of that in my school records.

That pisses me off! :mad:

was told that her children (born while she was married, mind you) couldn't be baptised because - get this - she hadn't been married in a church. The person instructing her about this meant that quite literally - in a church building.

Yes, she hadn't actually been married in the church, as her husband had been previously divorced. So the nitwit was going to turn away two children seeking baptism because of that? I'm glad the chaplain from our old HS was perfectly willing to baptise both kids at his church, but sheesh.

And I've known several friends who are not Episcopalian, but were married by an Episcopal priest, for similar reasons.

And the priest came out before mass and WATCHED US FILL THEM OUT! My daughter and I just smiled at him from our seats in the second row. The postcards were to be dropped into the collection basket - apparently we can't be trusted to actually mail them so the Church has to do it for us. I was gratified to notice that while several people were cowed into filling out the postcards, almost no one dropped it into the basket.

My children attended parochial school from preschool through 12th grade, but are all but gone now. They still enjoy TEC, but otherwise only attend church as a family outing. They are sickened by the constant War rah rah from our last priest. In the cafeteria where they once made Mass cards for shut-ins and counted out rice bowl money they are now urged to sign petitions against gay marriage. They were energized by the words of Barack Obama when they went to see him campaign in Columbia Missouri, but were "warned" not to vote for him the next week at church. It is a sorry state of affairs.

All the churches promoting this, need to lose their tax free status. They are no longer functioning as religions but as political lobbying groups.

If they are advocating issues, while not advocating candidates or political parties, it is not in violation of IRS regulations. Whether you agree or not on the position you take on those issues is wholly irrelevant.

pretty much has been the precursor to many a death.

Thanks for the tale. It resounds strongly with me.

with a complaint that the church is politicking.

They need to keep their politics out of the church or loose their tax exemptions, it is that simple.

I'm a Catholic, I am lapsed like you for many the same reasons. My faith in the message and in the beliefs remains strong, I consider myself spiritual; however, my faith in the religion and the church is what doesn't exist. I often find myself asking god to let me be there when the popes and priests make it to the gates of heaven, I want to hear him lambaste the sinners before he tells them that their sins were the gravest of all, false prophets and supporters of false gods.

They get in trouble when they promote candidates.

post card stunts, phone banks stunts and get back to leading from the pulpit and not inciting right wing activism.

Opus Dei. It has totally ruined our diocese. The new bishop is a freakin zombie for OD as are many in our Parrish. They simply want to have two issues, Abortion and Gays. Period. Thank god I have met many frustrated Liberal Catholics like myself in my community. To be frank I believe they outnumber the nut jobs but have no voice.

I found a very interesting Catholic/Socialist 'church' when I was in NY State this past summer. This priest is so brave and has a huge following. His biggest concern is Aid to Haiti. What a great church. This is what Jesus was all about....

http://www.spirituschristi.org/history.html

On August 13, 1998, Bishop Matthew Clark, under pressure from Rome, removed Fr. Jim Callan as administrator after 22 years at Corpus Christi Church. The Vatican had trouble with three practices dear to the heart of Corpus Christi parishioners: the prominent role of women on the altar, the blessing of gay unions, and the offering of communion to those who were not Catholic. The Democrat and Chronicle carried the news on the front page the following Sunday, which brought an extra large crowd to Mass that day. Over 1200 people came back to church that Sunday night to organize a protest against the bishop’s action. Night after night, the parishioners gathered in church to hear speeches from the staff and other leaders and to strategize about standing firm on the issues. The movement to keep the inclusive spirit of Corpus Christi alive was quickly termed the “Spring Committee.” (The name came from a Salvadoran proverb: “You can cut back some of the flowers, but you can’t hold back the spring.”)

The parishioners held weekly, police-escorted, candlelight marches from the church to Dimitri House, Corpus Christi Center, and Rogers House Restaurant. The youth group printed t-shirts and protested in front of the bishop’s office at the pastoral center. They requested a dialogue with diocesan officials. On October 15, Mary Ramerman was fired from her position as associate pastor. The diocese demanded that she remove her alb and stole and not go near the altar during any church services. She refused. She did not want to send a message that women were not holy enough to approach the altar or deserving of equal participation in the church. In protest of Mary’s firing, several women in the parish put on purple stoles, a symbol of women’s ordination, and continued to stand at the altar week after week. On October 22, Fr. Enrique Cadena, the other associate pastor, was granted a leave of absence by the bishop for “rest and reflection.”

The week after Mary’s firing, members of the Spring Committee organized a Tuesday night communion service for Corpus Christi parishioners who wanted to keep the inclusive vision alive. It was the first of many held weekly at the Downtown United Presbyterian Church, a congregation that soon became an important part of the new community’s future. Mary led the services and invited staff and parishioners to share their reflections.

The crowd attending these services soon grew to about 1000 people. Fr. Jim, who had been reassigned to Elmira, returned on December 1 to celebrate mass with the community, an action that brought about his suspension from the priesthood a few days later. Meanwhile the Corpus Christi staff continued to work in the outreaches and the parish ministries.

Six staff members were abruptly fired on December 14: Jim Smith, Director of the Prison Ministry; Sr. Margie Henninger, Director of Dimitri Recovery House; Denise Donato, Family Minister; Mike Boucher, Adult Education Director; Myra Humphrey (Brown), Hospitality Minister; and Maureen Nielsen, volunteer staff resident of Pearl House, the Prison Ministry’s home for women ex-offenders. The following night, the new Tuesday night community raised over $30,000 to support the fired staff. In the following months, most of the remaining Corpus Christi staff joined the new faith community. They included Mimi Youngman, Religious Education Director; Mike Ramich, Business Manager; Kathie Quinlan, Isaiah House Director; Eileen Hurley, Director of Corpus Christi Center; Judy Simser, Pearl House Director; Mary and Kevin Aman, Youth Directors; Kathy Welch, Jim Ramerman, and Craig Kegler, Music Directors; and Jacquee McIntyre, Parish Secretary. The sacristans and many other parish leaders also joined the community.

By Christmas Eve, many people had decided they wanted to form a new community that would be inclusive. Disillusioned by the December 14 firing of the “saints,” the folks who had devoted their lives to serving the poor, parishioners wanted to move on and stop battling the diocese.

On January 30, 1999, 500 people met at the Gateway Banquet Center for a Visioning Day for the new community. By the end of the day, plans were made to form a “New Faith Community,” whose spiritual leaders would be Mary Ramerman, Fr. Jim Callan, and Enrique Cadena. Mary became the Pastoral Administrator of the parish. The new community would rehire the former staff of Corpus Christi, and they would rent space from Salem United Church of Christ on Bittner Street.

The New Faith Community held its first weekend masses on February 13-14, 1999. Over 1100 people attended. (Ten days later, the diocese declared that the members of the new community had excommunicated themselves.) On Holy Thursday, April 1, the community celebrated its first mass and consecrated the Eucharist. The mass was held before a full house at Hochstein Performance Hall, the former church where the funerals of Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglass were held.

By August, the community had made three major decisions: to raise the tithing from 12% to 15%; to name the community Spiritus Christi Church; and to begin the first outreach, Grace of God Recovery House. Grace of God began with the purchase of the house on 120 Franklin Street. Over $80,000 was raised for the new ministry in just three months. The parish also voted to adopt a statement of identity: “We are a Christ-centered Catholic community reaching beyond the boundaries of the institutional church to be inclusive of all.”

By September 1999, Spiritus Christi was a “full service” church offering religious education, funerals, baptisms, weddings, unions, weekend masses, and daily masses. The new congregation was now able to celebrate its gay unions in a church building, whereas before the union ceremonies had been held offsite in homes, parks, and restaurants.

I believe my senator Sam Brownback is opus dei.

The extreme right Evangelicals are laughing all the way to the bank. They can't wait for the Catholic Church to fail. They are doing everything they can to help it fail.

This church treats women like crap. Until women can be priest, monsignor, bishop, cardinal and pope, this entire misogynistic bunch can kiss my ass. And that's just for starters. Bunch of old men in dresses seeking to control women -- sexually and every other way.

And yes, I used to be Catholic. A pre-Vatican-II-Kleenex-on-the-head Catholic. A sang-in-the-folk-Mass-choir Catholic. I will not set foot in that church again (until there's a REAL Pope Joan) except for weddings and funerals.

there aren't that many teaching anymore, it seems the priests have taken over setting the agenda. I was shocked at a funeral mass I went to a couple of years ago that the church had built a mock graveyard with little crosses. It was labeled as a memorial to aborted babies. It took everything in me to not trample it down. I did make up my mind that I wouldn't give them any money not that day and not ever.

activist-pacifist, for publicly promoting the ordination of women.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/maryknoll_excommunicated/

... teaching and being taught by example.

I, too was raised Catholic, but dropped out as a kid when I found out what the church did to Galileo. For me it was shocking that the church would go after one man for what he learned.

It's too bad churches can't get their collective heads out of their asses and get out of politics.

go because ny wife still goes and my youngest son just volunteered to help the Knights of Columbus with their pancake breakfast. My problem is I don't think about God anymore when I'm there. But I want to go for my wife,

IMO...sometime in the future the "Popes" (papacy?) will be tried in a world court for crimes against humanity for promoting overpopulation. Same for US funny-mentalists.

Or...in another more likely scenario...humans will just overpopulate and natural causes will drastically reduce the population....and the church as an organization will no longer exist.

I really doubt that humans have the capability to self regulate.

me throughout Catholic school (1st through 12th). That was also the part that was always most alive, most meaningful.

I moved away in my young adulthood as the treatment of women in the church become too obvious for me to ignore anymore. And after I had my first child, I knew I couldn't raise him to think it was in any way ok. But I really missed having a church home.

I literally wandered into an Episcopal church about that time. Found warm people, nearly the same liturgy, and none of the hatred of women. (In fact, our two rectors since I joined have been women - and one of the interims as well) Lots of the social justice stuff, and beyond that, politics is left outside. I share the pews with conservatives and liberals and all sorts in-between. It's been a nurturing place for me and my kids. I don't know that they'll stick with it as they grow into adulthood, but I'll feel as if I've given them what I can of a grounding there - then they'll do with it what they can.

My parents and the rest of my family are still nominally Catholic, but only my Mom is very serious about it, I think. She spends most of her time now at their food pantry - it's become nearly obsessive (in a good way). So many in need - and she's the kind who wants to help them all. She represents to me the very best of the RCC. Too bad it's not run by women like her!

HYMN Lyrics
- Peter, Paul and Mary

Sunday morning, very bright, I read Your book by colored light
That came in through the pretty window picture.

I visited some houses where they said that You were living
And they talked a lot about You
And they spoke about Your giving.
They passed a basket with some envelopes;
I just had time to write a note
And all it said was "I believe in You."

Passing conversations where they mentioned Your existence
And the fact that You had been replaced by Your assistants.
The discussion was theology,
And when they smiled and turned to me
All that I could say was "I believe in You."

I visited Your house again on Christmas or Thanksgiving
And a balded man said You were dead,
But the house would go on living.
He recited poetry and as he saw me stand to leave
He shook his head and said I'd never find You.

My mother used to dress me up,
And while my dad was sleeping
We would walk down to Your house without speaking.

as a result it is the reason Bush took Missouri in 2004

I asked my friend who voted just because of the Abortion for Bush does she feel betrayed that he never did get rid of Roe verses Wade

She says she has learn that Politicians lie

The church's attitude about Women will be its end