When California Runs Out Of Water....

For those who don't know, not only is California out of money - we are going to run out of water too. Okay, not all of California will be out of water - just Southern California. We rely on the Colorado River for most of our water. That river is shrinking. Global warming is melting the ice caps - we are using our water faster than it can be replenished and we here are in DENIAL.

We need to conserve our water and build desalination plants so we can use ocean water here. We need to understand just how close to the end we are when it comes to our water supply. No one is sounding the alarm here. We never see or hear anything about this catastrophe which is right around the corner.

We have the technology. We need to use it.

are looking at the faucet wondering why water isn't coming out the end of it - maybe the cost will be unimportant. Besides - the technology is available. It has been developed. We are not using it.

You in the SW want your sun and warm temperatures. so, you moved to a desert. Deserts don't have water. THAT is why there's no water coming out of your tap.

Stop behaving like spoiled children, and set priorities. Do you want water, or do you want warm temps? You can't have both. Adults understand these things.

I was born here. I didn't move here.

Nobody is acting like spoiled children. Maybe we should all freeze to fucking death in an ice storm???? Ooooooo Noooooo.... You shouldn't move where there are ice storms or hurricanes or floods ----- Adults understand these things. All those drowning people in NOLA during those hurricanes... dumb children. :eyes:

The California haters always come out when anything about the state is discussed.

while you try to squeeze water from sand. Enjoy your thirst, Queen of the Desert! :eyes:

frightening to you in the desert. But when you run out of water, which is what started this thread after all, we'll have ice. Which is to say water.

There are Desalination plants being used and more being built and water is being reclaimed and reused more and more. It's not perfect yet but it will be. One of these days we will be self sufficient enough we can separate ourselves from the ignorant and selfish holier-than-thou-know-it-alls. Then we can not only have our perfect weather, glorious sunsets, water enough for our needs and wants, but we'll have the best beaches, world class snow skiing, and the deserts, and we'll have the freshest organic foods not to mention the diverse cuisine and cultures, fresh seafood, lovely California wines among the many other fine amenities that the great state of California has to offer.... to ourselves;-)

It's no wonder there are those that are extremely jealous of us lucky enough to have been born here or of others that were smart enough to have moved here. Adults understand this :fistbump:



Now if we can only get rid of Arnold:freak:

:eyes:

the "saudi solution" aka de-salinization...goes hand in hand with the development agenda....that is, development of more and more housing subdivisions, until every last bit of habitat is concreted over

it doesn't seem as if the answer is de-salinization....

this is a really good article:

<http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070416/davis_2/print>

That excuse of the costs involved is so tired.

Nothing personal.

Here we sit, in the midst of an economic melt-down that is in every single way imaginable looking like a carbon (pardon the pun) copy of the First Great Depression, BUT we also have TWO MAJOR ISSUES that offer us a chance to refocus our entire economic Raison D'etre (Global Warming and Peak Oil) that tie in directly to things like the following:

- topsoil erosion and loss of farming acreage to inefficient and wasteful petro-agriculture
- drinking water short falls in many areas of the country (Atlanta already happened and no one cared???? What? Too many black people I guess? Too close to New Orleans?)
- the need for better mass transit in cities and better rail transit for shipping and travel BETWEEN cities
- entire industries in renewable energy (primarily electricity from wind, solar, geothermal sources)including generation, storage, transmission and utilization

ALL of which are underfunded, undermanned and underdeveloped at a critical time of NEED, OPPORTUNITY AND CRISIS?!?!?!?!?!

Our root problems actually have given us the road-map to a solution. MAJOR government program spending in starting and priming the pump of new industries for a 21st century America - energy generation from renewable sources, energy transmission via the oft hyped but still vaporware "smart"-grid, energy storage in the form of advance battery technology not just for vehicles but also for homes to truly capture and use electricity generated to its fullest potential (instead of sending electrons whizzing around on wires until they are lost to friction and dissipation!), major efforts in desalination plants up and down the coasts and MASSIVE rethinking of the desert Southwest in terms of water use in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, California and Nevada.

Those are serious problems....no action is not an option without resigning ourselves and the rest of humanity to a very ugly future. We NEED to do these things and we need to do them now and with the same sense of fierce urgency that many of our grandparents or parents fought WWII and many other of our parents and sons and daughters took up the Space race...it is not a question of "what do we need to do?"...it is a matter of will we FINALLY start doing it????? I am optimistic that the passage of the First Obama Economic Act (and yes, I believe that we will need to have 3 or possibly 4 of these before we get to where we need to be) that we have a start on the path to a solution...BUT...

That solution is going to require a massive shift in wealth distribution across our entire society though....and the top 0.01% are doing everything they can think of to keep that from happening...but they might as well be squeezing air! They want to keep the ill-gotten, undeserved spoils of rigging a political system to the desires of the few at the expense of the many. That dog won't hunt, that center can't hold and that policy has been played out to disastrous result. Whether by means of political negotiation and compromise (the pen?) or by means of violent overthrow and revolution (the sword?), REAL CHANGE is coming. We elected Obama in the reverent hopes that our nation can be saved by the former....but it is going to require recognition of some pretty brutal facts by those in positions of privilege in these United States to avoid the latter...

and limit housing and subdivision construction all over the state

actually, SoCal gets a lot of its water from the north, via the California aquaduct....

but planting lots of drought resistant (and wildlife and bird friendly) live oaks would be a great idea....why not call LA's mayor Antonio Villareigosa and ask him what's happening with the million tree program?

(actually,today excepted, it's been pouring buckets in So Cal and will continue for the next week or so...)

That's what we grow and export from California. Asia covets short-grain, American like long grain, so we mostly export it. Rice and cotton are two water thirsty products California grows well, but shouldn't to conserve precious water.

but it runs off into the Pacific Ocean. It is lost.

We are stupider than a bucket of crap when it comes to this and it really isn't the fault of the average person - it is not ever discussed here...

A huge portion of our water comes from the Colorado River and it is about to dry up and go away. There are 4 major sources for our water: http://www.publicaffairs.water.ca.gov/maps/allprojects.cfm

We have got to do something to stem the drought that will cripple us.

and.....a fair % of So Cal's rainwater gets captured in the underground aquifers.....

some environmental groups have been getting the LA river's banks a bit more environmentally friendly....

but aside from that, much rainwater percolates down into the underground aquifers in all watershed areas.....

the rain pour into the ocean here.... it passes right through Mission Valley and right into the Pacific.

I realize there is some water saved but we are losing the battle.

Global warming has decreased the amount of pack being retained throughout the cold months, thus less water for both North and South.

this year the snow pack is 30% less than normal

indirectly, it's due to global climate change...since that's a cause of drought

but the immediate reason for the reduced snow pack is less rain, not higher temps

Despite what you may think - much of the Sierra runoff goes into the bay


But again, this will require California thinking like ONE state, rather than NorCal SoCal

... and their privatize at all costs policies.

produce food. Oh, and jobs.

We'd have plenty of water up here in Northern California if we didn't have to send so much of it to ingrate asshats who haven't noticed they live in the desert.

and it's sad to hear anyone say that something environmentally harmful is actually really a good thing because it provides employment....



we just had a huge battle here in SoCal over the attempt to extend a transportation corridor (freeway) through a wildlife area and through an historic surfing area, near the San Onofre state park......

the enrvironmentalists finally won....the corridor will not be built

but the main argument given for the proponents was: JOBS

it is so sad to be short-sighted

our environment is so devastated that we have to stop thinking in short term thoughts about jobs...we need to put priority on doing what's environmentally ethical and sound

of rice fields in Louisiana, they now grow corn. We are just insane.

They've provided enough natural habitat with winter flooding that waterfowl populations have actually been increasing.

the Sacramento delta should be left to its natural state

the rice farms are a travesty

Find a way to pump more into the Aqueduct

It can be done, if we (I live in NorCal) don't fall into this NorCal/SoCal mentality

There needs to be a certain amount of outflow to maintain the health of the delta. Otherwise salinity levels increase inland and good farming land is ruined, species are threatened, wells go bad.

Before anything is done.

There are sooo many CRISES occurring at the same time ... due to 8 years of obscuring the facts from We The People.

the fault of the Bush era alone - it is something so stupid it even goes beyond that. I wish we would at least discuss this problem - the fact is, a lot of the produce that this country uses comes from the central valley of CA... we produce most of the nuts that all of us use. We produce most of the wine that most of us drink. What the fuck will we do when there isn't any water?

Robert Kennedy Jr. is very involved in preserving our water and saving the rivers of N. America.... we need to pay attention and force our state to do something before it is beyond help.

lack of water is nothing compared to the damage of a temp increase of only a couple of degrees Fahrenheit

I guess we should do nothing?

I am totally aware of what climate change is doing. I am 100% on board. But I also know we will all be looking at a situation that should be able to be avoided by doing something to prevent it NOW.

Isn't it sad to see and hear people saying that global warming is not real? It fucking kills me. Yet so many people really believe the RW scam when it comes to this.

geographical area.

We are the breadbasket of the country, but most of the country doesn't know it.

Unfortunately I think we are on the 'back burner'.

I'm not being snarky, I really am curious. We were put on water restrictions last year in the Bay Area. There were limits on the duration and frequency of landscape watering among other restrictions.

actually, yes, the enforcing was by comparing water usage and by setting up a snitch hot line

but that was last year, when there was a very severe drought

no mention this year...

stack up the use water in the plumbing system, you know toilets flushing, showers, kitchen sinks. I always felt that high rises and Southern California are not good fit because of the environmental stress particularly in the need for water. Of course high rise office buildings increase businesses that increases the need for workers who need homes and that causes excess development. I saw it happening in valleys surrounding LA about the time I left. The rolling hills that supported agriculture and wilderness areas got paved over and built on, which created a need for more water and of course in the hot valleys swimming pools are plentiful.

That the land is sand and fires are inevitable? Don't get me wrong, I loved it there and the weather was no small part of my infatuation, but just go out a mile on a boat and look at the land from a distance. That will show you the whole story, little squares of green development surrounded by the natural brown. Look at the geography, it's quite plain what is going on there.

Governor Brown wanted to tow icebergs down from Alaska.

Maybe the time is right for that.

He and Gov. Brown should get their heads together. :)

They act as if water is here forever. Even if they use re-cycled water to build this shit what is it for and who will work there? I see massive holes dug into the earth and who knows what will be there.

I don;t know why they could not just leave well enough alone rather than to over build what is a small area as if making the traffic even worse and all these monsterous malls are something to be desired.

Hell even the Hollywood bowl has been taken over by disney and is crap now.

I don't use anynore water than needed to do simple things and in our apt we don't pay for the water , but that's not the point.

Man I would love to get the hell out of here. It has really turned to shit since we moved here in 1981.

I don't blame you for wanting to leave, Hollywood/LA seems like a crappy city to live in.

During the past 10-15 years or so, SoCal kept bringing up the idea
of building a pipe at the mouth of the Columbia River and sending
all the water south because why waste it by dumping it into
the ocean.

When that didn't work, they turned to their good buddies in
Idaho (a year or 2 ago) and wanted to suck the water from the Snake River
and pipe it south through Nevada. That didn't work either.

And they always keep going to the Sacramento River delta and
some other river (the Russian?) and make grand plans for grabbing
that water.

Yet birth control is frowned on, to say nothing of abortion.

Interesting times indeed.

Of course the economies of most of the Great Lakes states are in the toilet, but long term they have a resource that everyone will want. The trick is to protect this natural resource from "exploitation" and preserve it for future generations while much of the South and West will be clamoring for fresh water and may have the political clout to make it happen.

and Canada and the great lakes states are making sure of it. I am staying put. I have a feeling that Michigan will end up , in the next couple decades, as THE place to move to, because of all the fresh water. As will the great lakes states in general.

Nukes are the greenest energy you can get in large quantities, and you'll be able to desalinate all the water you need, but nukes...nooooooo. If it's good enough for 75% of French energy, it should be good enough for Ca. Get busy building nukes in a hurry.

From page 10 of The Self-Limiting Future of Nuclear Power:


Dry cooling can be used, but it's expensive.

edit to add: Nuke plants are already being shut down because of drought:


Wind and solar don't use water to electricity.

Lots more at ClimateProgress.org:

Nukes can be built without using so much water.

You have to keep the mirrors and panels clean.

once they figured out they could just dump it off the coast of Somalia. :eyes:

and water shortage will be nationwide, not just California.

"In the Upper Midwest, water shortages, huge water shortages are being predicted."

http://climateprogress.org/2009/02/09/stephen-chu-la-times-interview-global-warming/

Q: So you’re looking at a scenario of permanent water rationing?

CHU: No, you’re looking at a scenario where there’s no more agriculture in California. When you lose 70 percent of your water in the mountains, I don’t see how agriculture can continue. California produces 20 percent of the agriculture in the United States. I don’t actually see how they can keep their cities going.

This is not only true of California, this is true for all the Western states. Forests are dying because of parasites. The pine bark beetle is killing pine. British Columbia has already lost 40 percent of its pine … so, when there are no trees, when it rains, the soil doesn’t hold the water… The American public needs to be made aware that this is happening. This is a real economic disaster in the making for our children, for your children. If you live in California, any of the Western states, this is going to be very serious. In the Upper Midwest, water shortages, huge water shortages are being predicted. … It goes back to this fire insurance. How do we find the political will? It hopefully has to come from the people of America.

<snip>

LA PAZ // The Bolivian capital and its twin city of El Alto are facing a water crisis this year, a leading climatologist says.

Demand for water is likely to exceed supply in 2009, with the entire Chacaltaya glacier, which supplies nearly two million people, set to disappear within 12 months, said Edson Ramirez, a hydrologist at San Andres University in La Paz.

“Glaciers have a double function; they reflect the sun’s rays, keeping the earth cool, and act as the world’s water towers. More than 70 per cent of the world’s fresh water is stored in glacial ice,” Mr Ramirez said.

“In 1989 we had estimated that this glacier would last 15 years or more. Now we can see that the glacier has practically disappeared already.”

At his cramped office in the southern zone of La Paz where he has spent years studying satellite imagery tracing the Chacaltaya glacier’s decline, Mr Ramirez outlined a grim future.

“It’s almost gone,” he said, pointing to a diagram charting the glacier’s recession over five-year stages from 1980.

The Chacaltaya waters serve not only most of El Alto’s 800,000 residents, but 60 per cent of La Paz’s one million residents as well.

Melted water from this glacier is also used to generate electricity for the two cities, feeding into 10 hydroelectric plants, Mr Ramirez said.

El Alto’s population is growing at about 6 per cent a year and La Paz’s by about 3 per cent. Mr Ramirez believes there could be social unrest when Chacaltaya melts.

“This year is the tipping point when demand for water in El Alto will be progressively greater than supply. Without water the region’s hydroelectric system will also collapse and no water for irrigation will result in severe food shortages... http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090210/FOREIGN/617909184/1135

Just saying...

Landscaping with water loving plants, like people do should be against the law. Golf courses need to think of doing something other than grass. There are plenty of attractive drought tolerant plants to landscape with. I do it and in the summer I only have to water once a month if it's really a dry year, less during normal years. Also, over populating an area like Las Vegas or Los Angeles with the excesses of water and electric use that they do, especially Las Vegas, is a crime IMHO.

our water use, so that water is used fro essential things, like growing food. I think a massive redo of how new housing is created, making sure any new home has a grey water system, waterless toilet, low water-use washers, rain barrels, cisterns for holding run-off, xeroscape, no more pools -- and retrofitting existing houses so they do the same.

That's a good start.

I also thonk we need to start "banking" water -- create regional cisterns that hold run-off. It would require a whole new infrastructure, but there's some good job creation there.

I am unsur abotu the idea of desalinization plants -- I would have to know more about how they impact the surrounding waters/wildlife before I got into them.

used to have this idea of piping some of Alaska's water down to California. Everybody used to laugh at such a project, but it might not be such a bad idea.

When was this with Wally?

well said.

Sid

They're welcome to all the snow that piles up on my driveway and sidewalks ... and even the roof ... and all they have to do is come and get it. After all, if it's left here then all it does is wind up in the Great Lakes. (Well, Lake Erie, at least.)

:dunce:

I'm sorry, I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy.

so - all of us who grew up here, born here - you want to tell me where we should all move to?

Nobody wants your sympathy. How about understanding a global warming crisis? How about knowing why the rivers are drying up and the lakes? Keep blaming us. It's popular here to bash the shit out of us. During the last round of fires you and your ilk pissed all over us telling us how stupid we are. If anyone were to say that about people living on the gulf during a hurricane it would be TS time. But for some reason, when trying to discuss doing something about a huge problem, like utilizing desalination plants, you and others feel it is necessary to tell us we are stupid.

Well that is just fucked up.

S. CA is not a desert. It is considered "semi-arid" - just like Spain, Italy, Greece and France. Just like the other Mediterranean countries. When they run out of water due to GLOBAL WARMING - maybe you can sit in your Lazy-Boy and pontificate about your superior mental powers and how stupid it was for their cultures to evolve in a semi-arid climate.

Get a clue - either say something positive to help the situation or hide the thread.

with too little water...yes, you choose to live there. So, yeah, I'm sitting in my Lazy-boy wondering why people live in a place with too little water...and then complain about it.

I choose to live in a place with plenty of jobs and plenty of money. So, yeah, I'm sitting in my Aeron chair wondering why people live in a place with too few jobs and then complain about it.

Sound fair?

about the cost of housing, and, well, the cost of everything. I keep hearing that $60,000 is not middle class in California because everything is so expensive. Sounds like people don't have enough money.

And all those people with all those jobs and all that money still need water. Which, as the OP points out, you don't have enough of.

I imagine there are places in the world in which there is absolutely nothing to complain about, and I also imagine there are people in the world who never concern themselves about conditions where they live, however I've never seen those places nor met those people.

How I hate these people so. As you say, we would be eaten alive if we dared criticize people who live on flood plains or in hurricane country but since we live in one of the most hated and envied places in the world we're fair game.

You see, we have common sense. But if it were sunny and warm in the flood plain, we'd have people trying to change that ordinance, I'm sure.

California FEEDS the rest of the country.

Most of us were BORN in California, and yes, we are lucky to not have to deal with freezing weather throughout most of the winter, but do you have to deal with 105 degree weather? Plus as much winter rain as Seattle?

Have you ever even been here?

Maybe you should think before you bash, and the next time you get a flood, ice storm, tornado, or whatever, have some damn sympathy.

but yes, we get plenty of it. But, this thread is about the lack of water, remember? And how California is running out of it.

People live in Southern California for the warm temps and sun. It's an effin' desert. So complaining about the lack of water is just irrational. Like me complaining about thunderstorms, the occasional tornado warning, snow, and a temperature range from 100+ to -20. I accept all of those things as part of life in the place where I've chosen to live. Yes, my family has been in this area for 5 generations, but I've made a conscious decision to stay here, as you've decided to live where you are.

And the place where you've chosen to live is a desert. So, it may run out of water some day. Just as I'll probably have to run to the basement 2 or 3 times next summer,because of the climate where I've chosen to live. The difference is that I'm not asking other states or parts of this state to build my basement for me.

but keep living in your prejudicial fantasy land. Just don't expect me to shed a tear the next time a Chicago heatwave kills hundreds of people.

green roofs, human services checks, municipal cooling centers, and more. There was one heat wave with hundreds of deaths, but none since then because of improvements the city has made.

And all without any help from California.

Does this look like a desert to you?



Nevertheless, our large local reservoir is 30% full.

And you will pay for it in higher food costs over the next year.

I don't know if you heard, but we have farms in the Midwest, too. And most of them do not use irrigation. It just rains here.

Last week I picked the last of the "fall" lettuce and put in the "spring" crop.

Somehow I doubt you're harvesting a lot in your garden right now, and I doubt the local farmer's market is doing a lot of business this week.

I buy local during the growing season, which is May through November. Then I can fruits and veggies and dry others, and dry grains for using later. But yes, we do have a farmer's market every Saturday. We have things here called hot houses where people grow things like tomatoes and peppers...using water not shipped here from somewhere else.

We're at least a quarter mile from the river here, and I'm sure it's very resource and energy intensive pumping it the 30 feet up-grade to our house. :P

This year, maybe. :shrug:

:wtf: :shrug:


Hey, Xema, it's been good debating with you, but I gotta hit the hay. Gotta get to one of those jobs we don't have here :)

Have a good one! :hi:

:hi:

Looks like I got into one of these moods:




And for that I apologize! :hi:

And the Bush administration was right too in their lack of response to Katrina. What's the point of saving or rebuilding New Orleans when people shouldn't even live there in the first place?

They were, for the most part, the descendants of slaves. The Southwest population has expanded because of people leaving other parts of the country for the warm climate. Those people can move back north, where the water is, if they need to. And they will, in time, because the Great Lakes states are taking action to protect our natural sources of water.

more building and the attitude that: "we'll never run out of water, we've got the whole ocean, so we can just on on building more and more houses, with more and more lawns, etc...."

<http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070416/davis_2/print>

A number of years ago at work we had this visiting fireman speak to our group and he said in the event of a very major quake there would be no water to deal with the fires. He mentioned how people would go mad and march up to the Sepulveda Basin to get water. Somewhere around that place is a large tank of water but it was so long ago that I'm not sure that's true. Perhaps it was another place.

Anyway, for a great history of L.A's water the book "Cadillac Desert" is a true gem!!!

Most of the crops in AZ and CA is grown using irrigation. The crops can be harvested three times a year instead of once or twice in traditional locations (like the midwest). Because of this, suburbanization tends to lower overall water use.


Arizona's water use down despite growth
February 2005

U.S. Water News Online

TUCSON, Ariz. -- Despite the rapid population growth in Arizona, groundwater consumption has fallen in recent decades as homes have replaced farms, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

Groundwater pumping in Arizona fell 28 percent in the last 25 years of the 20th century, a 476 million gallon decline. In Maricopa County, water consumption fell 14 percent from 1985 to 2000.

In the Southwest, where population soared 250 percent from 1950 to 2000, annual water use increased only 58 percent to 20.5 trillion gallons.

It may seem counterintuitive given the population growth, but agriculture continues to consume most of the water in the Sun Belt. As farms are replaced by development, less water is used.

http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcconserv/5arizwate2.html

It's insane. :shrug: Most of the homes in the farming communities don't even have water meters to measure residential consumption.

the humidity of all those insane subdivisions with their lawns and golf courses....

is from concrete and asphalt, not lawns. In North Central Phoenix the temps are a little lower than other areas of the valley precisely because of the widespread use of grass and landscape plants.

The solution to the water problem is simple, move agriculture back to the states that don't need irrigation to grow crops. The downside though is that it will significantly raise the cost of growing produce.

.... when Coloradans decide to keep their river water for themselves, and cut off California's supply.

"...the Colorado River is one of the most regulated rivers in the country, a complex set of state and federal statutes, regulations and judicial decrees, interstate compacts and an international treaty (collectively referred to as “the Law of the River” (LOR)) govern the allocation storage, release and uses of the River’s water. The LOR dictates water resources management decisions made by the 29 million people who depend on the river for their water supply."

http://www.crwua.org/pdf/resolutions/2008resolutions.pdf

and is likely fighting over the same water:

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/offbeat-news/las-vegas-could-run-dry-by-2021/789


On edit, this article describes how 6 states are fighting over Colorado river water:

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/ecology/water-wars/407

People are being idiots, blaming us Californians for "choosing" to live here when we were born here.
It's not our fault that we got barely any rain this year.
Hopefully we will soon use the technology that we need to use.

by everyone. You are so correct. But Americans like to wait until they don't have something to imagine how they might have saved some of what they squandered.

We've had droughts here. I live with compromised water delivery. Only complete loss of water forced some to take shorter showers. And everybody still wants their shiny clean cars....as they watch the corn crumble

You want to use a huge amount of energy to desalinate ocean water, which besides the huge amount of energy required for this will also produce a brine that kills ocean communities and oh, yeah, you're going to cause problems by sucking more and more water out of the ocean.

Ummm, have you ever thought that deserts really aren't designed to have tens of millions of people living in them?