Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Oppose Bush Prosecutions? Here's What You Therefore Also Believe.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:57 PM
Original message
Oppose Bush Prosecutions? Here's What You Therefore Also Believe.
From Glenn Greenwald:

It cannot be emphasized enough that those who are arguing against criminal investigations for Bush officials are -- whether consciously or implicitly -- arguing that the U.S., alone in the world, is exempt from the laws and principles which we've been advocating and imposing on other countries for decades. There is simply no way to argue that our leaders should be immunized from criminal investigations for torture and other war crimes without believing that (a) the U.S. is and should be immune from the principles we've long demanded other nations obey and (b) we are free to ignore our treaty obligations any time it suits us.

It's just as simple as that: one must embrace both of those premises in order to argue for a bar against criminal investigations. And that's particularly true for those who argue that Bush officials should not be held liable for what they did either because (a) DOJ lawyers said it was legal and/or (b) Congress provided retroactive immunity to the torturers. As documented below, those are two of the most common and most universally discredited excuses in Western justice.

That fact may not lead anyone to change their minds about investigations and prosecutions, but those who are arguing for immunity for Bush officials ought to at least be honest and admit that they don't care about our treaty obligations and the principles we spent decades advocating for others because those rules -- for whatever reasons (e.g., we're special; we have too many other important things to do; we're the strongest and so nobody can make us do anything) -- don't apply to us. Those who oppose criminal investigations and prosecutions should acknowledge that this is what they believe (or at least are willing implicitly to embrace). Why pretend otherwise?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/19/exceptionalism/index.html">More here...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. Its a pity that it needs to even be explained. It should be common sense. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Our elected officials take an oath of office
They must defend and protect the Constitution. There are no loopholes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. It sickens me when Dems admit they won't fight for, want or even EXPECT their right to accountable
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 05:35 PM by blm
government that is open to the people.

Every day here I see some Dems who think it is silly to persist in calling for open government, as if they are part of the establishment Kool Kidz in with the secrecy and privilege crowd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It really does come across as a Kool Kidz syndrome
much of the time.

There is a certain smugness that seems to accompany the ability to thoroughly recite the establishment rationalizations for secret government and Constitutional abuse. The condescension of the Very Serious Adults who "really understand the realities" of these issues can get very tiresome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And they don't hear how tiresome they sound telling accountability seekers that they are the ones
who are 'tiresome' - as if we should all forget about that 'accountability' stuff, move past the idea of open government, and join them to make life easier for the corrupt and their protectors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Prosecute. Or protect and harbor war criminals. Prosecute. Or condone.
K & R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. You know, a rational man would think our Government would constantly be under investigation
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 05:23 PM by ThomWV
For any and all forms of wrongdoing and you'd also think what we would settle for nothing less.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Seems to me many Democrats have adopted the GOPs approach and use MOCKERY to attack those who seek
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 05:33 PM by blm
accountability.

They follow the lead of a certain Congressman named Richard Cheney, who mocked Sen. Kerry to the media calling him a 'conspiracy theory nut' - Kerry was unshaken and persisted to pull the single thread that led to the uncovering of IranContra, S&L chaos, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning.

Imagine - one thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. It is.
Anytime we have a Democratic President and/or a Democratic majority in congress.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ffr Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Banana
Funny
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes it is just as simple as that.
When Obama doesn't play judge and jury over Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. There is a big difference
between playing judge and jury, and intervening in ways that prevent the work of actual judges and juries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. exact;y....all a president has to do is COOPERATE with investigations not start them or BLOCK the
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 09:08 AM by blm
ones already started by congress or senate.

And certainly a president shouldn't deepsix matters that are being uncovered. How did that work out for this nation when Clinton did that for Reagan and Poppy Bush?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. We had to invade Iraq because Saddam tortured his own people
It was horrible that he tortured people. He had to go. However if Americans torture someone it is for the good of our nation..:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. guardianUK today: Publish secret 'torture' documents, MPs tell Obama
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 07:37 PM by chill_wind
Publish secret 'torture' documents, MPs tell Obama

Cross-party group of British politicians writes to US president as David Miliband defends himself over Mohamed case

Richard Norton-Taylor
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 19 February 2009 17.42 GMT


A cross-party coalition of MPs and human-rights campaigners has written to Barack Obama calling on him to publish secret documents that allegedly contain evidence of US and British complicity in torture.

The move came as David Miliband, the foreign secretary, defended his position on the Guardian website over the suppression of evidence of the torture of Binyam Mohamed, the former UK resident held in Guantánamo Bay.

more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/19/obama-torture-mohamed

I am looking without success for news today in the US media on what happened yesterday in an ACLU FOIA lawsuit hearing regarding Obama admin's request for a delay in releasing the rest of the OLC Torture Memos. Pressure is coming within and abroad.

Binyam's legal team and medical team from the UK flew to Guantanamo on Monday of this week in the hopes of returning him to the UK. He is not charged of anything, and has been one of 50 prisoners on a hunger strike and being force-fed, the last one of the UK's. I read in the UK papers that President Obama had signaled the US would try to fast-track his case, but so far I haven't read that he's been released. Many may not know that Binyam was also one of the 5 prisoners in the extraordinary renditions case that just got dismissed by the Obama DOJ.

I think international pressure from overseas is not going to just permit this to go away. It is in the UK papers daily.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
17. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks. :) nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yep. Emperor of the world, beyond any law, and unaccountable
for the perpetration of any crime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. We really cannot not do what is not right can we?
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 02:41 PM by madokie
This Cabal of War Criminals are in the same league as some of the other tyrants thats sprinkled all through out history, are they not?

splchk
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC