I don't agree with each and everything that is still done the Bush ways now being instantly blamed

on Obama.

I view this like the attempt to change the direction of a heavy machine that is rolling down a hill towards a village. Its natural that alot of people are in panic. But the dude who is trying to change the direction is not the dude that pushed it down that hill initially. If the machine rolls over and kills more people, it's not fair to blame it all on the dude that is trying to redirect it.

it's that simple.

I understand that fixing everything the neocons broke will take years. However, there are some things that could be done quickly that would alleviate much of the problem. For the most part, I'm not seeing these things being done. Hence, my disappointment.

When the Obama Administration comes out in support of Bush era policies -- that is, given the chance there to change direction and not doing so -- what's the metaphor for that?

Sounds to me like someone who had a chance to turn the large machine and did not, to use your metaphor.

Alot of people over there now depend on the presence of America, don't they? In Vietnam, the "collaborators" weren't treated nicely after the withdrawal. Not to say that it wasn't necessary to withdraw.

I don't say I totally believe this. I just say I can kind of see where people are coming from that argue like this. I honestly don't know what to believe. We just shouldn't have went the fuck into these countries in the first place. I'm not sure though how I would decide starting from the situation as it is now.

I'm just not sure how many people in Afghanistan our really our "allies", beyond the government of Kabul, which we installed when we illegally invaded the sovereign nation.

My bet is that after years of torture and bombing weddings, I doubt we have many allies there at all.

Certainly, there are people who will have to flee the country if we leave, but they made the decision to support the invading force, so my empathy for them is nil.

Otherwise that would further undermine our credibility worldwide. People everywhere would be thinking "Shit, don't work with the Americans. They are all talks. When shit hits the fan, they will just leave your ass behind."

I don't believe in leaving people behind to die. We put most of them in there in the first place, so it would make sense for us to extricate them.

No problem there at all. It would just make me happy that we were pulling out. :hi:

If we pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan now, that would probably mark the end of the involvement of the United States in the middle east for decades. I think there are many who would see it as admitting defeat. I doubt that Obama could survive such a move politically. Remember, he was elected under the premise that he would continue the war on terror, and many other democrats also support it. If I could have chosen a president, I would have chosen Kucinich. But America didn't want Kucinich, America wanted Obama. I think even if he decides to keep troops in Iraq, he has a mandate for it. Wether or not there is anything to gain from staying is another question. I could see how staying for a while longer could make sense, if at the same time there was strong effort to reach diplomatic agreements with Iran and the Taliban. Yes, the Taliban too. I think if we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to make deals first. I dismiss the claim that there aren't people that can be reasoned with among them.

oh yeah, we're gonna be hearing the blame game for ever. :grr: :grr: :grr: