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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:57 PM
Original message
Feinstein: Don't Spoil Our Desert With Solar Panels
Feinstein: Don't Spoil Our Desert With Solar Panels

Sen. Dianne Feinstein said development of solar and wind facilities in California's Mojave Desert would violate the spirit of what conservationists had intended when they donated much of the land to the public

WASHINGTON -- California's Mojave Desert may seem ideally suited for solar energy production, but concern over what several proposed projects might do to the aesthetics of the region and its tortoise population is setting up a potential clash between conservationists and companies seeking to develop renewable energy.

Nineteen companies have submitted applications to build solar or wind facilities on a parcel of 500,000 desert acres, but Sen. Dianne Feinstein said Friday such development would violate the spirit of what conservationists had intended when they donated much of the land to the public.

Feinstein said Friday she intends to push legislation that would turn the land into a national monument, which would allow for existing uses to continue while preventing future development.

The Wildlands Conservancy orchestrated the government's purchase of the land between 1999-2004. It negotiated a discount sale from the real estate arm of the former Santa Fe and Southern Pacific Railroad and then contributed $40 million to help pay for the purchase. David Myers, the conservancy's executive director, said the solar projects would do great harm to the region's desert tortoise population.

"It would destroy the entire Mojave Desert ecosystem," said David Myers, executive director of The Wildlands Conservancy.

Feinstein said the lands in question were donated or purchased with the intent that they would be protected forever. But the Bureau of Land Management considers the land now open to all types of development, except mining. That policy led the state to consider large swaths of the land for future renewable energy production.

cont'd http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/21/feinstein-dont-spoil-desert-solar-panels/

(sorry, Fox is the only source at this time.)

Our quest for renewable energy may require some concessions.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. BlooInBloo: Fuck you, Feinstein.
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Amen! When is she up again?
I voted for her primary challenger the last time and
will do it again ... I only wish she were up next
year and not BBoxRox.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. You are anti environment, congratulations
maybe we should turn Yosemite into solar panels while we are at it?

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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. No ... Yosemite doesn't get a lot of sun ... Congrats, you're a purist
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:31 PM by LSparkle
Which isn't going to get us anywhere. We have to find
a pragmatic approach to this or there's not going to be
a beautiful desert for ANYONE to enjoy. If we can't
find an alternative energy source to FOSSIL FUELS,
this planet is going to be dead, including your precious
desert.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. why does it have to be in a NATIONAL PRESERVE?
yes you are anti environment. yes really. there are thousands of acres outside national preserves that can be developed.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #35
188. IT ISN'T!
Greg Miller of the Bureau of Land Management said there are 14 solar energy and five wind energy projects that have submitted applications seeking to develop on what's referred to as the former Catellus lands. None of the projects are close to being approved, he said.

The land lies in the southeast corner of California, between the existing Mojave National Preserve on the north and Joshua Tree National Park on the south.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #188
193. and BLM lands are also to be preserved in accordance with their uses
and intrinsic value.

remember that BLM lands outside Arches National Park were slated for energy development and the Obama administration stopped that development in order to protect the national parks (even though these areas were outside those lands) and also to protect the aesthetic and other qualities of the BLM lands where development was to occur.

so no it does not have to fall within the preserve itself to warrant protection.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #193
208. You had your facts wrong. Deal with it.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #208
209. land outside the preserve is also appropriate to protect, especially under in light of the following
A land conservancy from Oak Glen spent years amassing $45 million in private donations and negotiating the purchase of more than a half-million unspoiled acres in the California desert so it could be turned over to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management for protection.

Now, the BLM is considering applications for wind turbines and solar-energy arrays on thousands of those acres.

The proposals on the donated Mojave Desert parcels have riled residents, visitors and members of The Wildlands Conservancy, which orchestrated the land deals involving a broad scattering of parcels in eastern San Bernardino County.

"It's a violation of trust, not only for Wildlands, but for the public. That's part of how we got so much diverse support, including hunters and off-roaders, because this was about public access and enjoying the Mojave Desert," said April Sall, manager of the conservancy's Pioneertown Mountain Preserve near Joshua Tree.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=121418
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #209
236. Why not along the railroad line mentioned in the article?
The article you referenced mentions a stretch of land between Barstow and the Colorado River why not put up some solar/wind turbine stuff along the railroad line, say maybe a stretch within half a mile on each side along the length?
The railroad already "ruins" the view from nearby mountains. Or, if it's "part" of the view, well then in another 50 years the wind turbines/solar panels will likewise be "part" of the view.

And while we're at it, let's plaster the entire route of highway 10 with wind turbines and solar panels, for miles in every direction, from San Bernadino all the way (at least) to Phoenix. The views along that road suck (well, maybe make some exceptions along the Colorado River where those farms are).
And I-5 from Tracey all the way to ButtonWillow. That view sucks too (well, let Harris Ranch and the farmers keep at it... but the damned lands with all the God posters should be Eminent Domained and solarized... just because).
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #236
252. isn't the railroad line and adjacent area privately owned?
:shrug:
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
224. why not ask the Navajo in Arizona if they would be interested in
setting up the panels on their land? It could be a revenue source for the tribe. If they do not want to there are lots of deserts and lots of people who may be convinced to put in these things.
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whopis01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
243. The environment is not something contained within the borders of a national preserve. n/t
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
77. Yosemite gets lots of sun by the way
more days of sunshine than most of the USA.
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
212. Naw...Yosemite converted to a ski resort would be much better...
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 01:48 AM by Duke Newcombe
with the hot waitresses that bring the cocoa with the little marshmallows...

</facepalm>

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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
255. That's okay, so is DiFi.
I'm sure her sudden interest in the environmental impact of this project is motivated by something more banal--greed for money or power would be my usual guesses in the case of DiFi.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Wrong Mr. Bloo, Feinstein is 100% right on this and she has a terrific record on desert preservation
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:16 PM by CreekDog
i usually agree with you and disagree with DiFi but she was instrumental in preserving the wonderful Mojave Desert in California and it should not be treated as an industrial area. 500,000 acres of development is HUGE and inconsistent with preservation of the land as it was set aside for.

there are many acres within Nevada that are government owned and not set aside for environmental distinction --a much smaller project might be appropriate there.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Possibly I'm wrong (on *this* being a good reason for my "fuck you")....
But what you say doesn't suffice to show it.

Additionally, it would need to be shown that Feinstein doesn't have significant ties to traditional energy production companies.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. The land is a NATIONAL PRESERVE, i don't need to prove *it* to you
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 06:15 PM by CreekDog
you need to prove to me that the need to destroy it is greater than the purpose it was originally set aside for.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
158. WRONG.
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 09:18 PM by Teaser
The entirety of the Mojave desert is NOT a national preserve. It's larger than a goddamn state and surrounds the city of Los Vegas.

Multiple towns exist within the California portions of the desert, and development is not off limits there. So why is it OK to build houses there and not solar farms?

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #158
171. i didn't argue against all parts of the Mojave Desert being used
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 11:54 PM by CreekDog
but only parts of the National Preserve or areas that would adversely affect the preserve itself.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #158
213. That is correct. The Mojave is approx 22,000 square miles...
The project that was landed by a Singapore company is scheduled to sit on 640 acres that's 1 sq mile. It will not be sitting on all 22,000 square miles, and it will likely be nearer the grid itself & transmission apparatus. Which could be easily positioned beside development already in-place: highways, materials & maintenance access easements, housing, services
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #213
266. Roughly 50% of which ALREADY qualifies as degraded habitat. You want to add more?
Roughly half of the Mojave already qualifies as degraded habitat because of fragmentation, overgrazing, development, off road vehicle parks, land clearing, and military utilization for things like bombing ranges and nuke testing. Only about half of the desert is still considered to be ecologically healthy.

The Mojave Preserve was set aside because it is one of the largest contiguous and unspoiled stretches of land left in the western portion of the desert, and it contains a couple of eco-subregions that are uncommon in other areas of the desert.

Instead of building in the preserve or other unspoiled desert, why not build in the already-degraded desert lands north of Barstow? Those lands have been used for everything from farming to grazing and mining for the past century and wouldn't suffer much if they were used for this. I don't understand the push to build this stuff in the UNDEVELOPED parts of the desert.

Oh, wait, yes I do. The power companies want the government to lease them the land at low costs. If they were to build north of Barstow, they'd have to buy the land from the people who own it already. Once again, the environment must suffer to protect the profitability of our energy companies.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #266
268. The area is roughly 50% degraded already; roughly 11,000 square miles?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 08:30 PM by bridgit
Then there's no need to "add more" it's already done. Your list should be taken as valid at face value as should my points with respect to positioning any such development away from clearly pristine, un-defiled areas in my post above but the issue nearer an emotional one and people aren't always aware of just what uses have already impacted the area under discuss primarily, as well as others, for quite some time now: grazing, being just one. Cattle concerns have been patching segments together like a quilt and tromping all over it since they came on the scene, and that has a long time already. I do think the emotional component enables people to see & talk past one another without offering any progressive alternative and that to my way of thinking is a lost opportunity all the way around
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
148. I suspect that probably is the answer...
significant ties to traditional energy production companies

"What is the nature of a DiFi?"
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
231. You waste your virtual breath here.
The knee jerk, slavish over-reaction to Senator Feinstein's valid concern is one of the main reasons I rarely come to the DU anymore.

The solar panel has become nearly idol worship by idiots who forgot that you don't fuck the planet to "save" it.

Oh, well. Good luck in your lonely endeavor against those that know very little about solar technology (I am an engineer, use solar energy and drive an electric vehicle).

Feinstein has this correct.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
239. One little detail this response misses... the 20% by 2020 CA law.
Your own referenced article mentions that 12% or CA power is green, and we passed a law here that stipulates that it must be up to 20% by 2020. Now, I couldn't agree with you more about Nevada. As far as I'm concerned, everything East of Winnemucca should be a giagantic solar panel (or quilt of small ones, with maybe an exception for Battle Mountain because of their cool fireworks store... and Elko for Mormon gambling)- but I suspect that that wouldn't solve CA law needs... unless Nevada decided to do make it so as a favor, and made a point of setting aside enough of the power thusly provided for CA uses.

On the other hand... I think everything between San Bernadino and Palm Springs should be a giant solar panel too... and the golf courses in Palm Springs should be forced to set up giant tents of mosquito netting over their courses to be sure celebrity balls don't hurt the people's panels...
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Jeepers...........
She is so out of touch. When is she up for re-election? Arnold maybe switching to the Democratic Party and got for that seat ya know.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. That is one of our national parks, SHE IS RIGHT to fight to preserve it
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:27 PM by CreekDog
and she fought during the 90's to preserve this land.

750 square miles of development and 500,000 acres is UNCONSCIONABLE in a NATIONAL PRESERVE.

My goodness, what is this i'm reading here at DU?

In the article, the Wildlife Conservancy is opposing this... are you people telling me you callously disregard that organization's opinion, that you disregard a NATIONAL PRESERVE's purpose in protecting a particular piece of land for current and future generations (not to mention the wildlife that live there).

FUCKING A. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH SOME OF YOU????

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
49. They've got their fingers in their ears going "La la la I can't heeeeeear you"
Gotta love the left wing of the left wing -- once they decide they don't like someone, it's all over. DiFi is one of my Senators, and frankly I think she does a pretty good job in some areas. I don't agree with everything she does, but that doesn't mean she's scum.

Hekate


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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. thank you...i badmouth her all the time, but she did good in 1994 to protect our deserts
and thanks for the humor. :fistbump:

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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
143. she's one of my senators as well, and i think she sucks on most issues..
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 07:34 PM by frylock
i agree with her on this particular one, however.
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MaxPlancker Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #143
233. I have a solution
Use the land that was formerly used for under ground nuke testing. Testing is banned. Its already wasted and covering it with solar cell would be an improvement. Nothing to despoil.

Oh, yeah. GO CHARGERS! LT IS BACK!
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Titanothere Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
283. People are obviously waking up to the fact that you can't get something for nothing.
This is where idealism meets reality. If you want to rely on solar power, you need to build solar panels. And a lot of them.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Second that: Fuck you, Feinstein
How you gonna run the air conditioners in LA??? Butt gas????


With Dems like these who needs the AIG's of the fucking world.

SOLAR NOW, GOD DAMN IT.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. okay solar panels in your living room
you volunteered.

after we tear down your house for solar panels, then i guess i'll concede the same amount of space in the Mojave National Preserve for solar power as well.

fair is fair.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Don't worry about it, I already have space and plans to put them in
Wanna buy some of my leftover electricity??/


We bathe in unlimited energy every day and no one has the will to put it to work cause there ain't enough money in it.

Fucking disgusting.

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. no, that's not enough
you want to destroy America's desert preserve, we take your house in exchange.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:01 PM
Original message
Fine with me, I've lived on the streets before.
Why don't we just flatten Phoenix, and everyone's happy.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
72. i'm just pissed that in the name of environmentalism you would piss away a national preserve
rather blithely too.

the land was set aside for future generations --it is not negotiable anymore. there's a whole earth of space to work with out there, we don't need to go dismantling protection of our designated natural areas to save it. i doubt Al Gore would support that anyway.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #72
124. OK, then how do you suggest we power the air conditioners all over the
southwest???

Hydro is tapped out, particularly if the drought continues...

I guess we can always build nookulur....

:sarcasm:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #124
130. the only place to put solar is in the Mojave National Preserve?
Because I want to understand your thickness as clearly as possible. :eyes:

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
138. I see solar panels on every roof in the US.
Why not mandate that every roof in the US be MADE of solar panels??

There are new panels that can be just that.

And, if needed, we clear cut the fucking Redwoods and put up more.

Better that than my nephews dying in Iraq for the goddamned oil.

Business as usual is coming to an end. We can get ahead of it as a country or become another third world shithole run by religionists bent on bringing about the end times..

We're almost there now.

Read clusterfuck nation.. I agree with about 70% of what Kunstler has to say.

I walk the talk:

No car for 7 years.

I spent 50 bucks on gas last year to use my sister's truck.

I run most of my place on 12 volts and as soon as I can afford it I go solar, and get off the grid most of the year.


nature says Change or die.

And that's how fucking thick I am.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #138
246. You are my hero!
Damn that is a wonderful idea if we could require that all new houses have roofs made of solar panels.

That will be my new dream!
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
241. I'l second that...
Though rumor has it that there've been a lot of Mexican gangs doings crimes there lately. Flatten Pheonix and that'll put a fair number of criminals out of work...
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. Solar can't run shit.
It's a god-damned joke. You'll destroy the desert trying to power the Southwest alone.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. Gee, I wish I could talk out my ass.
Solar everywhere...NOW.

Fuck the oil companies and the neocons they rode in on.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #58
88. Wow! I don't know where you get your information but it's
usually 90% wrong. Go to the "Scientific American" website. They have many articles written by scientists on solar power that refute what you say.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #88
120. Who pays the salaries of the 'scientists'???
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. This interview with John Woolard , CEO of Bright Source Energy, explains their technology
Utility company Southern California Edison and solar startup BrightSource Energy announced a deal to build a solar-thermal plant that would generate 1,300 megawatts of power, slightly more than a modern nuclear plant, in the Mojave Desert. BrightSource CEO John Woolard discusses the project.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101242458
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. 750 square miles of desert development?!
I'll take a nuke plant, thanks.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #95
126. Can we store the waste at your house????
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #126
132. Developing technologies
will allow us to utilize that waste for further nuclear fuel.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #132
140. Let me know when that happens and i'll back nooks all the way.
Underground storage is a complete idiocy.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #132
153. I hear "developing technologies" will give me PONIES too! I'm so excited!!!
:rofl:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #153
200. Fuck. Sign me up for some of that shit...
Nukeyouler ponies!!!!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #132
168. Swell. In the meantime, clear out your closets. We're keeping it all at your place
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #132
232. Developing technologies will also give us "clean coal", so the commercials tell me
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #95
240. That's asinine.
Better solar panels than nuclear any day of the week. Obviously you don't live anywhere near a nuclear power plant. Would you like to live in NYC on the day the Indian Point Power plant blows the fuck up? Because there will be millions of people dead should that ever happen and that plant's safety record leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.

The stupid! It burns!
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #240
261. Well-designed nuclear power plants are safe.
And they simply cannot "blow up."
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #95
245. According to BLM, 30 million acres of public lands are available for consideration
with solar potential. And, "An average utility-scale solar facility can generate up to 250 megawatts (MW) of electricity and would occupy about 1,250 acres of land, roughly 2 square miles."

"Solar radiation levels in the Southwest are some of the best in the world, and the BLM manages 30 million acres of public lands with solar potential. The BLM has received more than 220 applications for utility-scale solar energy projects in California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Utah that describe more than 2.3 million acres of land." http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/energy.Par.78074.File.dat/09factsheetmap_Solar.pdf

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/solar_energy.html
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
235. Amen brother.
Now excuse me while I read more about this issue.
The Fuck Off to Feinstein here is just on general principles...
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Like those clouds of smog aren't ruining it already
Jeez, people are dumb. Politicians doubly so.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. The Mojave doesn't have much smog, come on, get a clue
It is a natural desert preserve and 500,000 acres is a huge swath of development inconsistent with the preservation of that land.

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. According to the Mojave land trust it does...
"Joshua Tree National Park experiences the highest ozone pollution level of any Park in the country. Both Joshua Tree and its neighbor to the north, the Mojave National Preserve post alerts warning travelers and staff of the severity of health threats from poor air quality."

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. we aren't talking LA levels of smog
and it should be protected from pollution, not disregarded because of proximity to it.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
66. if you don't believe that the smog/pollution prob is global
then you have lost ANY credibility. What happens in Pittsburgh affects LA affects Mojave affects the Gobi affects Shanghai.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. that's not a reason to develop the MOJAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE
and i know well the smog levels in the Mojave Desert. if you've seen maps of smog in the mojave desert they may have been created by me.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. the smog levels there aren't the issue
we can't continue to say no to every solution to our energy issues.

I know we can't drill anwr. But why do the complain about wind turbines? Because they can kill birds and bats

at some point we have to do something.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. why can't we say no in a national preserve?
is it not set aside for the same reason as ANWR?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. But solar is magic.
It trumps all.

Plus: DIFI!

:shrug: I can't figure these people out.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. it seems to trump all logic and reasoning
though i'm not against solar energy, but the time and place and reason needs to be considered first.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. at some point it needs to move
beyond considering ideas and to actually DOING some shit.

We need to DO something.

INstead of poo pooing why not offer alternatives?

Why not be proactive instead of reactive?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. you go find the other place, i'll keep making sure it ain't this place
:hi:
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #110
139. NIMBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
worst reason ever.

This is really no different than the bullshit republican suburban dwellers out here that won't let the homeless have a camp near their homes...

again why not come up with solutions? why be a part of the status quo?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. NIMBY:
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 07:17 PM by CreekDog


(i don't live in the desert or anywhere near it, but that big fellow does)
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #108
199. Ding! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!! If some think it *isn't* a juggling act then fine...
I guess it isn't...:smoke:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #199
202. Best.Gif.Ever!!!
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:39 PM
Original message
So what's the sollution?
Burn more "clean" coal in WV so it can acid rain in Mississippi?

Why always shit on ideas but offer none?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
111. The short term solution is nuclear.
The long term solution is also nuclear, but fusion.

It would be nearly impossible to meet our current needs with solar, even with massive development. Even this huge-ass idea would equal one single nuclear plant. And our electricity needs are going to grow exponentially as India and China grow and as fossil fuels and gas-powered cars phase out. What then? Technologically we're looking at one real solution on this hand and a bunch of pipe dreaming on the other.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #111
145. Not nearly as impossible as you think.
ten years and a trillion bucks.

At least we'd have something to show for it...

As I said above -

Make every roof in the US a set of solar panels

Almost everyone has a roof.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #145
214. How about fusion on the cheap?
Have you ever heard of the Polywell fusion reactor design?

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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #86
101. anwr is double edged
you pollute to get the energy. YOu pollute to harness the energy. YOu pollute to release the energy.

Solar is a single pollutant.

If we can't do anything to ease our issues, who gets to decide who dies when the energy goes away or the environment is unlivable.

And you missed the point of my post above.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. but you missed my point: WHY HERE?
is it the only place in the desert to do this? in a national preserve?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
142. There were crop failures world wide the year after St Helen's went off...
In Austin we used to get warnings to stay indoors because of wildfires in SOUTHERN Mexico....
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
128. That's right....
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. What is wrong with rooftops and tops of parking garages?
Then we would be generating our own energy, instead of depending on some corporation to do it.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Sounds to me like she's just making shit up to roadblock alternative energy production...
I would guess that she has financial ties to traditional energy production companies or something of the sort.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. The California Desert Protection Act of 1994 thanks to Senator Feinstein
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:30 PM by CreekDog
The California Desert Protection Act

The California Desert Protection Act, sponsored by Senator Dianne Feinstein, was signed into law on October 31, 1994, eight years after former California Senator Alan Cranston introduced the effort. This landmark legislation designates two national parks Death Valley and Joshua Tree and one national preserve the Mojave.

but i guess you just call this "anti environmentalism" out of IGNORANCE.

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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Good point, especially in the desert areas ...
But I'm not against some solar farms in the Mojave
if it keeps us from polluting the rest of the state
with smog ... I personally think the wind farm on
the way to Palm Springs is beautiful, not a scar on
the landscape as some have described it.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. you don't trade a national park for 500 000 acres of solar panels
what the hell?

the desert is not a freakin wasteland. maybe we should just make Nevada a nuclear dump like they tried to do for the last 10 years. just screw it all.

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
53. Good point re Nevada. The desert is worth preserving from development & nuke waste both. nt
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:49 PM by Hekate
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Exactly.
There are plenty of urban areas that can capture sunlight.
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DavidMS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Its the cost
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:09 PM by DavidMS
Its much more cost effective to put solar thermal plants in the desert than to put photovoltaics on rooftops. We need lots of green power and that's one of the better ways to do it. Faster to set up and there isn't enough PV manufacturing capacity.

Its opposition is pure NIMBYISM.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I hadn't heard of the solar thermal plant vs photovoltaic argument. Thx for the heads up.
http://earth2tech.com/2008/05/08/pros-cons-distributed-rooftop-solar-vs-desert-solar-thermal/

Distributed Photovoltaic Solar Rooftop Projects:

Pros:

* These projects can get up and running fast. Around 8 months, Kuga says, noting that the solar industry is also trying to bring down this time dramatically.
* Distributed projects are not dependent on building long transmission lines to remote locations (such as the desert).
* Distributed projects are also not dependent on the high water needs that solar thermal plants require for cooling.

Cons:

* Distributed systems have high costs of deployment. Because each system is a separate project, each rooftop installment requires a lot of labor, transaction and implementation costs.
* They scale more slowly because it takes time to get all the rooftops up and running.

Solar Thermal Plants:

Pros:

* Solar thermal plants benefit from the economies of scale that can deliver lower solar power prices.
* Solar thermal plant efficiencies are commonly higher than rooftop systems.
* Solar thermal systems have pretty good energy storage technologies, so they are compatible with the intermittencies of solar. Solar thermal plants can store energy for when the sun goes down better than rooftop systems.

Cons: (Also check out our 8 Offbeat Hurdles for Solar Power Plants)

* Solar thermal plants in the middle of the desert are transmission line dependent. Transmission lines are costly and difficult to get built.
* Solar thermal plants need a lot of water, which is costly and delays permitting.
* Solar thermal plants need a lot of land and require extensive permitting processes to get approved.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
43. Water in the desert??? Diverted from WHERE?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. I did find that a bit curious.
I thought they had a water shortage?
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. That leapt out at me too. Water dependent systems in the Mojave?
In the arid West where water resources are stressed as it is?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
82. yes and you've got to pump it there somehow
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 06:21 PM by CreekDog
The Mojave is from 2000-5000 feet in most areas, much higher in others. Think of the energy needed to do that.

There are no water sources that aren't already overcommitted.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
206. There's always liquid sodium.
You don't necessarily have to use water in solar-thermal plants as the heat-transfer fluid.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
41. Why THIS desert? This is protected land.
why the hell set aside land in parks, monuments and preserves if you can just destroy it for other purposes?

it's not like all our desert land has this status.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
81. then you argue that National Parks are NIMBYISM too
because we don't develop those either as that would be inconsistent with the purpose they were set aside for BY LAW.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
63. Where are these massive publicly owned urban areas?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
234. massive areas?
Doesn't take much space:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33818785@N00/3374229530/
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #234
244. You do realize that we are not talking about powering a camper don't you?
The proposed site is expected to power much of the SOUTHWEST UNITED STATES. It takes a lot of space.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. If I were a Vegas casino, I'd have put 'em on my massive roof long ago
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Installation and maintenance would be a lot easier if they were in one place.
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:11 PM by Incitatus
Besides, how much of an area are we actually talking about? How many thousands of square miles is the Mojave desert (22,000 square miles) and how many square miles would be used for solar panels? I doubt more than 1/10 of 1 percent would be used.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
62. your math is incorrect: 750 square miles
500,000 acres is a huge swath.
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
125. That is a huge amount of land.
That seems like a lot more than they would actually need. After reading more, I see your point. Why would they choose a national preserve when there are thousands of square miles elsewhere? Is all government owned land in the desert divided into different parks, so if it wasn't one park they are asking to develop in it would be another?

I do find this quote hard to believe.

"It would destroy the entire Mojave Desert ecosystem," said David Myers, executive director of The Wildlands Conservancy.

Developing 750 square miles would kill the ecosystem of the 22K square mile desert?

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #125
133. think of the roads and utilities necessary to support 500k acres of development
yes that would be like putting a city in the middle of it, a city 15 times the size of San Francisco
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #125
136. Cascade effects
in a delicate ecosystem can wreak widespread havoc. You're also looking at lots of accompanying power grid development and service roads, which would also impact the area.

Normally DU isn't the place to go for anti-environmental rhetoric. Very strange today.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
156. It's only 3.5% of the whole desert.
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 09:08 PM by anigbrowl
I'd say that offers a fairly high degree of flexibility. I like the desert, Death Valley is one of my top favorite places anywhere. But the desert is freaking huge. Go look at it on Google Earth. There's a lot of room to tuck something away where it won't wreck the landscape.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #156
172. your argument is much like those in favor of drilling in ANWR
saying that only a small percentage of land is affected or used.

if the lands to be developed are protected or designated as such they should not be developed in this way because that will adversely affect the qualities of those lands that we are trying to protect.

in other words, you don't put a power plant in the Grand Canyon because that is in conflict and would compromise the qualities that legally need to be protected --the same with a Desert Preserve such as the one in Mojave.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #172
186. Are you dense? The reserve =/= the whole desert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_National_Preserve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Desert

What part don't you understand? The National Wildlife reserve is only about 1/10th of the whole desert. Get out an atlas and look at it, there is copious unprotected space.
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trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. and office buildings and over roads and train tracks... it's already ugly
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 06:04 PM by trudyco
I think building within the urban corridor makes more sense because you can easily get it to where you need it.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:11 PM
Original message
Dupe
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 06:15 PM by Raineyb
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
242. Much preferred but some of us don't have roofs to put panels on.
Regards
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #242
247. Do you have windows? I hear they are working on technology
that collects from the entire panel and collects it at the edges of the window. Sounds totally cool!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #242
264. Are you homeless?
:hide:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
263. That would make way too much sense
:argh:
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. If there is an alternative place to place the panels, it would be better.
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:03 PM by tabatha
Why ruin an ecosystem when the installation of solar panels is supposed to do the opposite - preserve what is left of pristine ecosystems.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
237. Why not put the panels at Area 51? I don't think the aliens would mind. n/t
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
280. If we can find a way around the corrosion, then I'd suggest Utah's
Salt flats. The entire electrical grid of the Western US is already interconnected, so getting the power to CA and other states isn't a stretch. Al Gore said that ten square miles of solar panels could power the entire US.

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. I believe if global warming climate change isn't addressed with the utmost urgency by
rapidly switching over to sustainable energy, the world's deserts will grow in size.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Exactly
I was thinking the same thing, but you said it better.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fienstein has got to go!!!! She, like Lieberman, is anti-democrat!!!
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
51. Feinstein created the Mojave National Preserve, as an environmentalist I applaud her
I decry your ignorance.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
59. She protects a delicate ecosystem full of magnificent creatures
like these guys,



and you guys want to crucify her.

Use the word "solar" here and it's as though Jesus his-own-damn-self stepped in to start a conversation.
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
238. How many little solar panels could we get on those tortoise shells? n/t
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #238
262. Now THERE'S a plan I can support.
Solar-powered Mutant Ninja Turtles.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Christ this NIMBY shit is going to cripple the green power industry
.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
56. The ignorant and fearful already used that to kill the nuclear industry,
so this is just coming 'round to bite them in the ass.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
60. Not NIMBY,
just "Not In My National Desert Preserve."

This is land specifically protected because it has a unique and delicate ecology. Paving the place with fucking solar panels is inappropriate.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #60
159. The Mojave desert's physical extant is larger than the preserve
and that is where it's NIMBY.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #159
173. But Feinstein is specifically referring to plans that would compromise the lands in the preserve
which is what we are arguing about here.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #60
160. You know, it's not like we're planning to concrete over the whole thing.
Let's keep a sense of proportion here. 750 square miles is a lot of land...but the desert is >20,000 square miles. There's plenty of room for maneuver without destroying the national preserve part of it.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
267. NIMBY that is what they were talking about
in Nantucket when came to wind drive power. NIMBY is applicable to anyone that supports the program as long as it is out of their eyesight. NIMBY law suits citing environmental issues can easily tie up the most worthwhile green enegy projects for years.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
64. protecting national preserves is not NIMBY
protecting national parks, national monuments and national preserves is responsible and appropriate.

we protect them because they are not ours, we only rent them.
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
137. Thank you for your common snense
and trying to educate others about the deserts in the southwest.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
98. THIS GUY IS A NIMBY
but whatever, who cares that he's threatened. screw him. we need the energy.



"It is believed that, in their entire lives, these tortoises rarely move more than two miles from their natal nest. They also live to be 80-100 years old."
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #98
155. your reply in convenient jpeg form
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 09:10 PM by Teaser



You know, there is lots of development going on in the Mojave desert, as people live in TOWNS inside it.

Towns like, I dunno, Las Vegas.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #155
174. you are arguing for development of a National Preserve
a legally designated land, not unlike a wildlife refuge or national monument.

such areas are supposed to have their distinctive characteristics preserved not destroyed.

areas outside these protections may have development where legal, but not inside.

are you a Republican? i've never heard Democrats ask to put energy production into a Nature Preserve.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. She's certainly not my favorite Senator...
...but I do wonder if we shouldn't consider more decentralized models first, before building big solar farms.

Just a thought.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. Maybe California could hire Christo....
to put up the Solar Panels....



Tikki
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. That part of the Mojave should be protected--you may not like DiFi, but she's right...
The Western US has a lot of other space -- including millions of rooftops.

Hekate


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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Amen. Finally someone recognizes that this is land of legal significance
and is a preserve.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
227. Yes!

Rooftop solar panels and insulation in all buildings would be a big step
in the right directions.

As it stands nows, buildings constructed prior to 1977 in CA. aren't required
by the building codes to have insulation.

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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
257. And military bases not being used for much at the moment
Lots of empty, bombed-out real-estate that could easily be used to set up a trial program to gauge environmental impacts.

Tooele in Utah comes to mind here.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ground based solar is stupid, do it with stratellites above the clouds...
them beam it down to earth with microwaves:

Stratellites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratellite

Stratellites are high altitude airships:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_airship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_airship

They could collect solar energy above the clouds like space solar power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_solar_power

You'd get the benefits of space based solar (always on, even in cloudy conditions) without all the launch costs of a satellite. You can use the envelop of the stratellite as a reflector dish to concentrate the solar energy on a single point, then convert it to electricity, beam it down to earth in a microwave beam to a receiver station.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
161. Which unfortunately, don't exist as yet.
When they do, I'll be all for it.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. I agree with her on this one
for a change. Feinstein isn't my favorite Senator but she's right about this. Solar panels in urban areas (rooftops, etc) are a better idea.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. Find a way to make everyone HAPPY...its not hard...all we gatta do is TRY
Right boys??...now com'on and think of ways to make it work for both sides...maybe a compromise? Maybe some thing entirely new??

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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hear, hear! Plenty of fossil fuels left to burn, what's the rush?
:evilgrin:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
38. This is a bad headline
Most of the proposals are for solar thermal, not solar panels.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. house rooftop solar...not corporate whore controlled solar nt
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
45. The most important thing we can possibly do is
to achieve clean, plentiful, and renewable energy. Some tough sacrifices are worth the price of admission.

If we need to turn Yellowstone into the world's largest geothermal plant then that is what we must do. I'm not looking to take a dump on any habitat or area but to pretend we can make an omelet without breaking any eggs is pie-eyed dreaming.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
47. If you want to destroy a desert for solar, I frankly hope this guy haunts your dreams
The desert holds a perfect and natural balance between lifelessness and living vibrancy.
“Strolling on, it seems to me that the strangeness and wonder of existence are emphasized here, in the desert, by the comparative sparsity of the flora and fauna: life not crowded upon life as in other places but scattered abroad in spareness and simplicity, with a generous gift of space for each herb and bush and tree, each stem of grass, so that the living organism stands out bold and brave and vivid against the lifeless sand and barren rock. The extreme clarity of the desert light is equaled by the extreme individuation of desert life-forms. Love flowers best in openness and freedom.” <26>

Edward Abbey

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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
80. Certainly not advocating that this land be used
just pointing out the obvious - that some concessions will need to be made as we attempt to move toward alternative, renewable energy sources.


My take is not dissimilar to yours - can't we find a better place?
Q: Can’t we find some places in the desert for large-scale renewables that don’t require habitat destruction?

A: No doubt we can. Everyone agrees (or pays lip service) to the importance of “appropriate siting,” from environmental groups to Big Renewable lobbying groups like CEERT to regulatory agencies. Thousands of acres of low-value and abandoned agricultural lands are available in the desert, so it should be easy to find spots that don’t destroy habitat. Yet, so far, both environmental groups and state regulators have failed to ensure that these projects will be built in the most appropriate places first. Take, for example, BrightSource Energy’s Ivanpah solar proposal, which is the project closest to approval in the California Desert. This project would destroy 4,000 acres of good desert tortoise habitat, turning it from this12 to this13. While the California Energy Commission had the opportunity to fully evaluate alternative sites such as the agricultural land around Daggett (east of Barstow – satellite view here14), it declined to do so because this alternative was deemed too “uneconomical” for the company. Thus, BrightSource is allowed to externalize its costs of doing business onto the environment and the public, while suitable land remains unutilized. This cost comes in the form of destroyed habitat for the desert tortoise, pushing it one step farther down the road to extinction. Biologists agree that the warning signs marking the end of that road are already clearly visible.

In a commentary on Huffington Post, the Sierra Club’s Carl Pope pointed out the lack of appropriate siting that has so far characterized renewable projects, in the California desert and elsewhere: “And because the Bureau of Land Management sets its royalty rates below those of the prevailing private market, solar and wind entrepreneurs have a perverse incentive to locate their facilities in the most pristine natural settings instead of in already developed (but often privately owned) locations.” These were encouraging words, since the Sierra Club has been on record as “not opposed” to the Ivanpah project. If large environmental groups are willing to go along with projects that threaten a signature species such as the desert tortoise, then there is little hope that we will achieve the “appropriate siting guidelines” to which so many pay lip service. And if this is the sacrifice they’re willing to make now, at the beginning of our efforts to combat the global warming crisis, how much longer will our National Parks and wilderness areas remain sacrosanct?
http://www.dpcinc.org/_bigsolar_factsheet_printable.html



Btw, looks like BrightSource, may be one of these 19 companies from the OP article, and they apparently already signed a contract (notice their investors):

Oakland's BrightSource Energy, which already has a deal to build a series of huge solar power plants in the Mojave Desert for Pacific Gas & Electric, announced an even larger project Wednesday with Southern California Edison.

By 2016, the two companies said, BrightSource will build a series of solar-thermal power plants that will generate 1.3 gigawatts of electricity for Southern California Edison's customers. That's enough power for 845,000 homes, said Stuart Hemphill, the utility's vice president of renewable and alternative power. He characterized the deal as "the largest set of solar agreements ever signed."

Financial terms weren't disclosed, nor did the utility say how much it will pay for the power. California regulations require that such terms be kept confidential, Hemphill said.

Daniel Kammen, an energy and public-policy professor at the University of California-Berkeley, said the groundbreaking deal takes solar-thermal from a niche technology to the mainstream.

"This technology is not super-complicated," Kammen said. "The real issue is industrial capacity to build enough components fast enough."

BrightSource's first 100-megawatt solar plant for Edison will be in operation by 2013, said John Woolard, BrightSource's chief executive officer. From 2014 to 2016, six more 200-megawatt plants will follow.

The first plant will be located in the Ivanpah dry lake bed in the Mojave Desert near the California-Nevada border, where BrightSource intends to build two plants, totaling 300 megawatts, for PG&E. BrightSource officials wouldn't say where it will locate the remaining 600 megawatts of PG&E plants as well as the remaining 1.2 gigawatts of plants for Edison. It said it is working on obtaining land rights in several locations.

~snip~
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11679524


More:
Huge Solar Facility Planned For California Desert

Listen Now (12 min 27 sec)

Talk of the Nation, February 27, 2009 · Utility company Southern California Edison and solar startup BrightSource Energy announced a deal to build a solar-thermal plant that would generate 1,300 megawatts of power, slightly more than a modern nuclear plant, in the Mojave Desert. BrightSource CEO John Woolard discusses the project.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101242458

I live in Nevada, and welcome the notion of looking into land in our state and others that can accommodate such projects without destroying our precious lands.
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Titanothere Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
285. Wow, just looking at that guy makes me want to drop acid n/t
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
50. Everyone seems to be fighting a straw dog here.
This isn't an either/or situation. There is plenty of desert not protected. Just put it up in the unprotected parts. It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) built in the protected parts.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. Someone!
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 05:55 PM by sakabatou
Bring me my clue-by-four! What we need is more, cheaper rooftop solar.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
61. Shut up, DiFi! Damn, when the hell are you going to retire already!? n/t
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Fuck that.
She's protecting our ecological heritage. You people are dead ignorant about the magnificence of the desert and how fragile the ecosystems there can be.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. .
:fistbump:

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #71
84. Yes.. those poor fragile ecosystems..will be better as soon as DIFI gets her kickbacks..
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. You people?
I currently live in a dessert.

I automatically jumped at an opportunity to attack DiFi.

I regretted it, I apologized for it but, I will probably do it again.

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
107. Why should she retire? She's at the peak of her rip-off cycle...
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
65. Translation: Don't Do Anything Until I can Funnel the Contracts To My Husband's COnstruction Compan
Poor Diane Feinstein.., married to a husband who has reaped millions in no-bid contracts in Iraq.

Now, the American people want to have clean renewable energy. How silly... Oh the Humanity! How will Diane Feinstein and her contractor husband ever prosper from such a dire situation?

We need more war in Iraq so we can keep poor Diane and her Hubby in Chardonnay and Caviar.

Don't even THINK about renewable energy... what's wrong with you people? You are so Selfish....
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
131. I used to work for her husband's company
Who got the birds for these big solar projects?

Her husband's company.

You're bass-ackwards on this. Her husband's company will lose work if these projects don't go through.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
256. *snort* That's our DiFi!
I'll give anyone with a D after their name the benefit of the doubt, but DiFi has stomped all over progressive causes for the past 10-15 years. I can't believe people think she suddenly had an ecological epiphany or something. :eyes:

What's next? "Ellen Tauscher--friend of the poor!"

Kill me.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
68. Apparently her War, Inc. husband doesn't own any weapons facilities in Mojave. FU Dianne. n/t
J
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
70. Having lived in the Mojave Desert for 30 years,
I know that the resistance to wind and solar has nothing to do with environmental concerns.

I, too, want to preserve habitat, protect endangered tortoises, etc..

I also know that the Mojave's best resources are sun and wind.

In the area I lived, we had 10-11 inches of rain a year, and most of it fell in flash floods over a short period, leaving the rest of the year clear and sunny, and excessively hot spring through fall.

We also had a daily wind from the southwest that caused all trees to grow at a northeast slant. EVERY day. 10 mph was a slight breeze, 15 - 20 mph was business as usual, 40-60 mph storms several times a year, and occasional 80+mph windstorms.

Locals considered wind turbines and solar collectors "unsightly," and there was an entrenched resistance from the residents. The year before I moved away, the big scandal was that a local agency had managed to install ONE wind turbine.

Meanwhile, the hills of Tehachapi spin with wind turbines.

Rather than building more housing tracts, pumping more ground water, and creating a larger bedroom community with irrigated lawns for L.A., I'd like to see environmentally safe options for generating wind and solar power developed and used.


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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Sure,
OUTSIDE the Preserve. That's a specially protected area, and that's exactly what DiFi is doing here.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. The reason that
there is interest in the preserve?

Because developers and local governments don't want wind or solar farms.

I should have finished making that connection.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
103. Unsightly? How could they call this unsightly?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #103
127. I don't consider it unsightly.
tumbleweeds? Yes.

Illegal trash dumps? Yes.

Just plain litter blowing everywhere, due to irresponsible residents and the ever-present wind? Yes.

Dirt bike and atv trails, which, of course, do plenty of damage to the desert habitat? Yes.

Wind farms? I like them.

I had an old fashioned wind mill, to power the pump at the well, when I lived in the Mojave; it looked like this, including the gravity feed from the tank on the tower:



Not quite as modern, and crowded, as a Tehachapi wind farm, of course. ;)

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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #127
149. There is something about wind mills...
I really love seeing them. There is an inspiring beauty to their unique and natural force.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #149
177. why within the preserve?
where is that justified? if you develop the preserve you are no longer preserving it.

why have parks at all?
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #177
219. And where exactly did I say
they should be within the preserve? I like windmills. You like to argue.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #149
222. I love seeing them in someone else's backyard too
In my own, I guess I would prefer a natural desert landscape
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #70
176. how can you justify developing this:
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 12:03 AM by CreekDog


can you read the sign? do you understand that we set aside pieces of land like national parks and so forth to EXCLUDE them from development?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #176
258. Read again.
I've actually BEEN in the Mojave national preserve.

I think wind and solar are great resources that should be developed in the Mojave DESERT. Not the preserve. There are many, many, many miles of privately owned undeveloped desert outside the preserve that I think can, and should, be utilized. IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE WAY, without threat to habitat.

I've offered up the reasons why the preserve has become a target.

Address those reasons, open the private lands in the desert to wind and solar development, and the preserve won't be a target.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #176
281. Dunno, but that sign seems way to small to have much of an impact on our energy needs.
:shrug:
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
75. Isn't her husband profiting from the Iraq Invasion?
:nopity:
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Bennyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
79. The answer is not in corporate solar!
It is in rooftop solar to get away from Con Ed, PG&E, SMUD etc. To allow a giant corp to destroy the desert for profit is the same fucking thing as letting them drill off the coast. IT IS NOT THEIRS!

No, instead of subsidzing these fucking fucks, subsidize rooftop solar for every homeowner and business. Then we can take the corporations out of the equation and put our energy in our own hands. Then we can have fixed cost energy, not energy that costs that rise at any whim and are run by Corporations.

I agree with her position on this (even though her reasoning is much diffferent than mine)and seldom agree with her lately.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
83. There are miles and miles of nothing in the Mojave desert so I don't think
a few solar panel farms are going to have a huge environmental impact. However, how about putting solar panels on all the buildings in developed areas? Much of California is already developed and there is plenty of sun in those places as well. So how about this as an alternate solution?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. the proposal is 750 square miles
that's where i think i've got to correct you. we aren't talking about a "few solar panel farms".

but renewable energy in appropriate places for appropriate reasons is something i support.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. This is a much better idea. Plus, Mr. DiFi is less likely to have "interests" ...
... in every California rooftop.

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
90. I want you to meet Tony Saprano.....
Hey Diane..I'm going to send over a good friend of mine, Tony Saprano. He would like to talk to you about your garbage and trash routes in California.

You'll like Tony. He's a real 'people person' and he is used to dealing with people like you and your husband. He understands the fine details of politics......

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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
93. Please DINOanne.....go away.
Retreat to your mansion with your WMD-making hubby and STFU.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #93
105. She'd better not STFU.
Right now SHE is the one standing up for the protected desert preserve while DU has suddenly gone crazy.

The environment doesn't suddenly go out the window just because we're discussing your pet technology.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #105
122. No, DU hasn't liked faux Democrat Feinstein for a long time......
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 06:59 PM by marmar
She provides plenty of ammo.


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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. I'm no fan of hers,
but when she's right, she's right. On this one she's on the side of good.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #93
119. okay, how about I say it instead of her?
i have no ties to weapons companies.

how's that?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
94. Can't have it both ways... I say "LET'S DO IT".
This isn't covering the whole frigging desert with solar panels. Just a portion. Hell, some of the critters might like the shade too. :shrug:
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. That's the stupidest thing I've read all day.
It's a preserve. It's been set aside for special environmental protection. This development would destroy it. And the "critters" don't need any shade; they are evolved to live there. They're fine.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #94
118. James Watt once said how pretty the oil rigs look off the coast with their blinking lights
:hi:
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8 track mind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #118
165. boy there's a name i haven't heard in a while.....
The man with the permanent foot in his mouth.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
96. Oh, without electricity, none of us would be able to post here.
Have a qualm? Sell your computers and everything else.

:loveya:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. WHY HERE, WHY THIS PLACE?
nearly all of us opposing this are asking this simple question.

nearly everyone else thinks that we just naturally should develop the protected national preserve when there are thousands of square miles elsewhere that aren't protected that might be suitable.

this place NOT SUITABLE.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
100. NIMBY's are against this project
like this guy for instance:

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. The desert tortoise
just might be the most enchanting animal on earth.



Thank you, DiFi.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. Codeine...Do you get your check Direct from the CIA.. or do you answer to the Oil Companies?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. You're adorable.
:hi:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. kill the desert tortoises
by golly LIB you have convinced me.

you are such a good liberal.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #100
162. You're repeating yourself
and it isn't any more convincing than the first time. I think we can probably find some room in there without making the cute tortoise extinct.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #162
178. i am repeating myself, you don't seem to understand the law
you don't favor protection of land through preserves, monuments and parks.

you don't get it.

you are against protecting parkland. your suggestion is little better than Bush's proposal for the lands outside Arches National Park in Utah.

please, just vote Republican and you shall get your way. we'll turn parts or all of our parks into energy facilities --that's the Republican platform. go for it.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #178
181. Don't put words in my mouth.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #181
190. your own words support developing the preserve
shrinking it if you will so that part of it will no longer be preserve.

that's not putting words in your mouth that is where you stand.

be proud of your stand, Republicans would support you. oh they would want to also develop the land for oil, gas or whatever you might find there, but altering protected land is what you have in common with their positions.

let me ask you, what part of Death Valley national park should be turned into a solar facility? it's about the sunniest place on earth. would love to know that.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #100
215. I actually want solar in my backyard... or my rooftop.

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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
271. We had a desert tortoise as a pet when I was a kid.
R.I.P. Fluffy. :cry:

We found her in the Sierras, obviously someone kept her as a pet and then got rid of her. We took her to a rescue but they advised us just to keep her so she roamed our backyard for decades. I wish I knew how old she lived to be.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
109. Damn
In reading this thread it is completely unbelievable to me that so many here really don't want alternative energy. They proclaim to be environmentalists while sitting in front of their electric computer, watching their electric TV, plugged into their electric Ipod, in their heat and cool regulated home with their fuel powered car and yearly air travel vacation and click their ruby slippers together wishing for miraculous free, impact free energy to allow the same conveniences they currently enjoy. Opposing all forms of alternative power which has the slightest impact on their surroundings. Christ people! The Mohave Desert is 22,000 square miles (or 150 miles x 150 miles), the proposed site is 781 square miles (30 miles x 30 miles) out of that. The hypocrisy is astounding.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. i want alternative energy, you don't need to develop a national preserve to have alternative energy
are you able to think?
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #114
150. It doesn't matter the plan, it is never good enough, every alternative energy plan
proposal I have read about on DU is opposed by one so called 'environmental group' or another hereabouts.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
115. That's where the spas are supposed to go. n/t
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
121. time for someone to not seek reelection for a variety of reasons.


This is no time for NIMBY.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #121
129. It's a preserve, for fuck's sake!
Jeez. You know, for purposes of preservation!

You guys were happy with NIMBY when it was nuclear, right?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #129
144. I'm generally OK with nuclear too.
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 07:37 PM by aikoaiko
Although the consequences for mishap are really different for a solar panel field and a nuclear accident.

There has to be some sacrifices. Apparently, its status doesn't protect it from development.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #144
164. You're Just Pissed At Feinstein For Her Stance On Firearms. (n/t)
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. Well I did say for a variety of reasons, didn't I.

Until this thread popped up, I had no idea she was just as foolish about developing "greener" energy resources.

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #121
135. NIMBY:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
134. This thread is FUN!
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
146. Too many unanswered questions
And when DiFi takes a stand, I have to admit, I assume she has something to gain by it. (She's just got a reputation that way.)

For those responding, I wonder how many of you have driven through California's desert lands. Are you aware of just how much lonely, desolate, sun scorched desert there really is in California? There are miles and miles of almost identical, mostly uninhabitable land.

So, one of my questions would be, why are some of the other areas not as suitable?

'Feinstein said Friday she intends to push legislation that would turn the land into a national monument.'

So what makes this specific area so special? There's got to be more here than meets the eye. The article says that this particular area was either donated or sold at a significant discount, and it appears that it hasn't been declared, yet, to be more than government owned land. This in itself may make it more ideal if costs are a significant concern. I can't imagine, though, that other areas aren't similarly ideal, and with probably the same basic wildlife...unless there are endangered species to consider.

I really know little about it, other than what I've seen on my drives through California. Of course, with DiFi's involvement, I can't help but have doubts.

Just my $.02.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #146
179. you think Cranston worked on this legislation in 1986 to stop solar power?
do you think Feinstein worked from 1992 to 1994 to stop solar power?

that's when Cranston and Feinstein worked to protect these lands.

and Feinstein as maddening as she is has had an excellent record on environmental protection.

i cannot believe i'm arguing with knuckleheads on DU of all places that a PRESERVE HAS A PURPOSE and that purpose is NOT to be turned into an energy development (whether green energy or not). the people who donated that land did so to protect it.

you guys just don't get it. you clearly have little knowledge of the purpose of public land protection and the value of it.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #179
217. Oh, go ahead. Just bitch for the fuck of it.
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 04:48 AM by Control-Z
Why do people like you have to be such dicks? Did I not write that I could not understand why another area wouldn't be just as suitable?

'you guys just don't get it. you clearly have little knowledge of the purpose of public land protection and the value of it.'

Yeah, that's it. I'm an idiot, and you just know everything.

Edit to add: I am sick to death of getting crapped on for asking questions and giving an opinion. Seems to me that California has more than one area that would be suitable to wind and solar power. Or, for that matter, conservation. There are a lot of unanswered questions.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
147. She's goofy ~
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #147
152. I agree she is goofy. But she has plenty of company
I made a point yesterday about everyone pushing for alternative renewable energy and all. The problem is no matter what the source of power you use you have environmentalists or some other special interest group or some f----g lawyers that find a fault with it.

Examples:
coal: I hear it is impossible to have clean coal, etc.
hydro: Kills fish, destroys wetlands, alters natural river flow, etc.
nuclear: Too dangerous, don't know what to do with waste nobody wants it in their back yard.
natural gas: Can't drill of course.
solar: Not in my desert, EMF from hi-voltage transmission lines kills people. (this one I believe).
wind: Kills bats, can't be in migratory bird areas, unsightly ruins our view, the changing shadows from the blades make you flip out or something and of course (not in my backyard).


So tell me just what are we supposed to do? I see countless posts on here pushing some sort of renewable energy and no matter what someone has a problem with it and think it is totally unacceptable. I would like to have a solar panel on the south facing side of my roof but it is just too cost prohibitive.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #152
157. I think it's past time to start seeing some alternatives as, if not 'beautiful' then handsome...
We need to understand that renew-ables are not the problem; they may not be the whole answer but neither are they they whole problem. Having said that, I am sure some preserves are special case and would be better left to themselves...but in-so-far as the Mojave Desert well...I've never seen a pic of DiFi standing out there in a gauzy dress & floppy sun-hat in that heat. She needs to get a grip and start working for America imo but that's just me and yeah...

Your list is spot-on, the Save The Bayer's of Chesapeake don't much care for windmills out in their water either messing up their post-card world we need to start getting past this stuff or let lobbyists run the whole damn show
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. I was talking to a guy yesterday from a group that
is building 6 hydroelectric power generators on the Ohio river. I said I never understood why they didn't do it 30-40 years ago and he said it has taken them years to get the permission to build them, the biggest obstacles were environmentalists claiming it would kill fish and the Army Corp of Engineers studies. A company came here about 5 years ago and wanted to build an amusement park they finally got the permits after 5 f---g years of being held up buy the EPA and Army C.E. This project will produce thousands of badly needed jobs eventually, it should have been built and in operation at least 3 years ago.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #163
169. Absolutely! Our system out here is run by PG&E and they suck but the system is far reaching
been up & running quite a while and it still produces http://www.pge.com/mybusiness/edusafety/systemworks/hydro My family was big construction, and my husband did allot of big stuff so I understand the need to get it right the first time, but maybe the time is now to put some smart people on these things, teams of folks pouring over nuts & bolts, address everyone's concern stamp the prints and get into the field
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #169
226. Hi bridgit...
I suppose most big utilities suck, but while Southern Cal Edison sells LOTS of Coal fired electricity, PGE only sells 1-4% of their mix from Coal.

And they have this going: http://www.pge.com/solarschools/

And this: http://www.pge.com/about/environment/pge/solarhabitats/

:hi:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #226
269. Hey _SKP!
I hear you, was referring more to their customer service component at least my experience with it. Hear you too on the SoCal Edison thing, husband used to work for their steam generation devision and have heard some of the scarier stories there. Up here we're on SMUD, PG&E still supplies gas here in town, and they're just across the river in west Sac so it makes you wonder what those negotiations look like maybe cause SMUD doesn't do gas it was just a no-brainer and that was that but PG&E is busy alright. My guess is that they all are, need to, or should be to help birth this next round of energy provision

http://www.smud.org/en/community-environment/solar/Pages/index.aspx :hi:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #269
277. I like SMUD, too...
I've had meetings there, they have a pretty cool exhibition of lighting technologies at their energy center off 50, at 65th and S, worth a visit. One block west, at 61st, they've built a solar-powered hydrogen fuel filling station for their fleet of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

http://www.smud.org/en/education-safety/Pages/exhibits.aspx



:hi:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #163
180. EPA and Army COE are upholding the law
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 12:18 AM by CreekDog
they aren't just doing it because they like their birkenstocks or because they are all vegans or some nonsense.

these agencies are charged with seeing that US environmental laws are not violated and if certain development would cause a violation, those agencies are charged with mitigating those impacts or stopping the development.

THAT IS THE LAW. got it? :banghead:

many people in this thread should be ashamed at how proudly they hold to ignorant stands with regard to environmental laws, the use and protection of public lands and the importance of land preservation for historic or aesthetic purposes and protection of critical habitats. it's not wrong to not know but to proudly state ignorance of nearly all the critical issues here and when corrected by some of us in this thread --continually hold to ignorant positions --this is a disgrace.

please don't apply for jobs at Department of Interior, EPA or Army COE --you don't belong there.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #180
189. +1
I've worked on these projects, and you are 100% correct.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #180
284. I work on the cultural resource parts of similar projects
and getting a massive job like a hydroelectric dam done in 5 years is rather speedy. We have environmental and cultural resource regulations for a reason - and someone has to do the reviews - aren't those jobs? Do the jobs go away if the project is not done this year but next year?

I'm pretty ashamed of many of the responses on this thread. I cannot believe the lack of reading comprehension on display here. Last time I checked, bulldozing a nature preserve for energy development was a part of the Republican party platform - anybody remember "Drill, Baby, Drill?"
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Saboburns Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
151. Maybe you can tell me where I'm wrong, but...
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 08:47 PM by Saboburns
Nothing Feinstein says here says she is against Solar farms. Nothing I read says she against HUGE solar farms in her backyard. Nothing I see here says she is against solar farms in the desert.

What I see here is that Senator Feinstein is against anything that disrupts, destroys, or fucks up land set aside as a National Monument. And that includes 'green' power projects.

And that, I think, is very cool of her.

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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. I guarantee no matter were you would try to put
solar panels you will have some f----g group that will try and stop it. For Christ sake you can't put solar panels in a desert what about the delicate plant and animal life, you bet there will some kind of lizard, scorpion or whatever's habitat it will destroy. Who knows maybe the heat the solar panels absorb will unset the whole world's balance somehow..
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
166. Hey Fixed Noise Supporters, the is a lot of desert out there!!!
No need to destroy the preserves, or harm a delicate ecology.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
170. If Feinstein was George W. Bush I'd still agree. No development here.
Fucking solar morons, dancing again for the coal industry.

Hey, I have an idea... why don't we put solar plants on the coal strip mines? God knows there's plenty of acerage there. If solar power is so great maybe we can shut down a few God Damned coal plants to.


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #170
282. True that--lots of used up strip mines in AZ as well.
Even if they don't receive as much heat as AZ deserts, they still get PLENTY of sunshine--and they actually would have a reasonably aesthetic value moreso than the scareed landscapes alone.

This native Zona desert rat thinks you have a marvelous idea.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
175. She piggybacked her career on the Milk/Moscone murders
and has been feeding off their dead bodies ever since. She's an opportunist ghoul.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
182. oh good grief!
if ANYPLACE should have solar panels, it's the desert! di fi is really nutz!
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #182
184. The Grand Canyon is desert too, why not put solar panels all around it?
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 12:30 AM by CreekDog


Saguaro National Park is desert. Why not turn it into a solar facility? it's just desert right? who cares if it's a national park --it's just desert. :eyes:

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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #184
187. i'm referring to
"salt flats" type desert, not the grand canyon (which definitely is beautiful, i've been there). where would you suggest? santa barbara? :shrug:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #187
191. we are talking about the Mojave Preserve
it's not ALL or even largely "salt flats".

a number of us are arguing against development of a large desert preserve which was to be protected by law for exactly what it is. you don't just come along and turn that land into energy facilities especially when other areas are available.

we are talking about a specific area that is supposed to be a "preserve". you shouldn't be arguing to develop it, if you are arguing to develop some other piece of land, make that clear because i'm not against development in other areas provided it's sensible.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #187
192. Is this "salt flats?"
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 12:44 AM by XemaSab
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=34.778562,-116.388119&spn=0,359.990194&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.778588,-116.388229&panoid=pHFBRV91kBddOTB6qGwCpA&cbp=12,29.027928230831403,,0,5

This is one of the proposed sites. If you look to the north, everything between there and the mountains is going to be bladed and turned into a solar field.

Edit: for a better view.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #192
211. and my question to you is....
where would you propose putting them then?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #211
218. In part of the desert
that's already been destroyed by ATV's. :hide:
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
183. Reminds me of dispute about wind farm (I think)
in/around Cape Cod.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #183
185. there are places where it's appropriate and places where it is not
protection of habitat (on Cape Cod, birds in particular need to be protected), but also aesthetic value which is a legitimate basis for protecting lands by law in the USA. don't knock it, it's how we got the Grand Canyon protected as a national park.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #185
194. Did you think I was 'knocking' it?
I was mentioning what I think may be a similar situation.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #194
196. if you didn't mean that i'm sorry
i was on the other end of that argument far too many times here on DU too.

i'm just reacting to so many glib responses on this thread.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #196
201. Apology accepted!
I don't do glib or nasty.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #185
197. that Cape Cod crap pissed me off. It was the one time Walter Cronkite acted like a spoiled celeb
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #197
198. what needs to be considered if you want to put a wind farm on Cape Cod?
please list 2 or 3 primary issues that help us determine whether it's a good idea or not, Mr. Cronkite's celebrity opinion notwithstanding.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
195. just put the stuff alone the highway to Vegas. that land isn't being used for anything now
except growing scorpions and tumbleweeds.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #195
203. and parking airplanes
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #195
225. actually, that's not a bad idea
i can envision solar panels or turbines straight down the middle of parts of I-5.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #225
228. they did that in Germany years ago on the Autobahn. They put up vertical axis turbines
so the turbulence of the cars driving by would turn them.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #225
254. Yes!
I have been driving Hi.5, 99, and 101 south to north repeatedly recently, and that is all I think about during those drives -- why are there not panels/turbines running those routes??? It's such a damned obvious option...
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
204. rec4, someone else help put this on the front page, thanks
:kick:
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
205. What about solar panels on the old nuclear testing grounds?
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 01:17 AM by backscatter712
They've already been irradiated and environmentally screwed up, but at the same time, they're in the middle of the desert and get lots of sun.

Perfect place for some big-scale solar.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #205
207. Well according to some people the EPA & Army CE's are charged by law...
to protect their concerns too :shrug:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #205
278. Need to be near centers of population or transmission lines.
If not for that we could cover miles and miles of, say, Nevada.

Rooftops and Highway medians are good candidates.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
210. (sorry, Fox is the only source at this time.) OMG, people, look at the source.
As a much wisened fellow DU'er said recently. Consider the source and then check the information, even give it a lil time before driving the car off the cliff.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
216. I would bet that most of the people screaming to 'preserve' the desert, have never been there. It's
SAND people, sand and I bet you wouldn't want to live there. Political putty, how wonderful. Next they'll be screaming not to attempt tidal power because it will harm the ocean, as if the plastic 'state' floating in the Pacific isn't doing enough damage to the ecosystem.


Get your priorities straight, or quit supporting the oil lobby.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #216
221. You got it, on top of which: you don't save the environment with the EPA & ACE's you want...
You save the environ with the EPA & ACE's you have so as to suggest; and I have never seen a defense of g.w. bush's eviscerated agencies put forward as a reason to *not* do what is right here at DU till last night stunning simply stunning; after 8 years of bush we aren't looking at what was right with those agencies we're looking at what was wrong about one of the biggest 'watch the birdie' scams America has ever known in what was the ultimate favor of Big Oil in that g.w. bush never did *anything* without it were for Big Oil period and that included stifling the reasoned development of alternative sources of renewable energy periodx2

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/03/20/trial-set-for-army-corp-of-engineers-over-katrina-liability
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #216
275. I've been there. Many times. Sounds like you haven't.
Is there sand? Yes, but that's not where they're wanting to build these things. Only an idiot builds on sand.

No, they'll be plowing under the desert scrub lands and cutting down the Joshua Tree forests (which are already facing possible extinction because of climate change). We're not just talking about dry sandy plains inhabited by rattlesnakes and scorpions. These scrub lands are inhabited by everything from Mojave Mule Deer to critically endangered Mojave Ground Squirrels and Desert Tortoises. Coyotes, wolves, and countless bird species call these lands home.

We're not talking about sterile sand dunes here, but one of the few remaining large stretches of a pristine desert ecosystem. It's insanely hypocritical for ANYONE to advocate for the destruction of an endangered resource simply because they "wouldn't want to live there". You may not want to live there, but plenty of other animals do. Truthfully, few of us would want to live in the Yosemite backcountry either, but we'd be rioting in the streets if the administration proposed clearcutting it to put in windmills.

There are more than ten thousand square miles of Mojave desert that have already been fragmented, overgrazed, or polluted by human development. Build the arrays there. Leave the remaining untouched sections ALONE.

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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
220. Why don't they put solar panels on the roofs of every fucking strip mall instead?
Those buildings are ugly anyway, so nothing is going to destroy their aesthetic, they're sprawling, and they're everywhere.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #220
223. Better - in place of every strip mall nt
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
229. Senator Feinstein is correct and this thread is an embarrassment of environmental ignorance.
Feinstein is correct.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
230. That's a typical Californian position to take - wanting it all but to give up nothing
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 02:50 PM by Bread and Circus
This is the attitude in a nutshell:

Say yes to all things that consume vast amounts of energy - trains, planes, automobiles, and fancy houses in the Sausalito hills.

Say no to all the things that you need to live so high on the hog - oil, coal, nuclear, wind, and now apparently solar.

----

Folks you can't be one of the richest states, consume vast amounts of resources, have the most expensive real estate, the fanciest restaurants, have the biggest social infrastructure, and the richest Americans all while keeping taxes low and eschewing all energy options. You can't have it all, wrapped up in a nice, pretty environmentally friendly package. Especially when you live in SoCal and live on borrowed water in what should be a desert.

I love California and Californians but sometimes the whole place is not founded in reality.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #230
249. Not just Californians
Sen Kennedy is all for wind power, as long as he can't see the windmills/turbines from any of his estates.

Only the hoi-polloi need see the guts of the machinery!


:hi:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #249
270. Nope, not just Californians...
:):(
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #230
272. Typical of a California basher to not know WTF they're talking about.
We're not anywhere near the lowest state taxes per capita. More like the 10th highest. And a tax donor state when it comes to federal taxes. http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/05staxrank.html

Nor do we consume vast amounts of energy. California is one of the lowest energy consuming states per capita. http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/energy-myths1.html

And you think we say no to oil, coal, nuclear and wind? What about all offshore oil rigs, the nuclear plant at San Onofre, and some of the biggest wind farms in the country?

"Prior to Horse Hollow's completion, the largest US wind farm was the Stateline Wind Project on the Oregon-Washington line, with a peak capacity of 300 megawatts.

Three California wind "farms" arguably have greater combined capacity than the Stateline farm, but are actually collections of dozens of individual wind farms...

Northern California is home to one of the earliest large wind farms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #272
276. I guess I should have said rich coastal Californian attitude, of which Feinstein qualifies
Edited on Tue Mar-24-09 08:25 AM by Bread and Circus
And don't bullshit me with your "per capita" numbers. We both know that California has vast wealth and resource consumption disparity.

P.S. And if everything is so jiffy, wtf are you guys on the economic brink and why do you all have such a disproportional share of the foreclosures these days?

Like I said I love California, but it's broken. Everyone knows this. Kicking out Davis and inserting the Terminator didn't solve your problems either, which was no surprise.

But in many ways, CA is one of the most forward looking states and full of brilliant hard working people.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
248. So amusing...
if anyone ever has driven south of Phoenix, in the Gila Bend area, you will have noticed miles upon miles of abandoned living developments that sometime during the 60's and 70's were built in the odd hope of attracting people to that area that has an insane temp during the summer. But you know, destroying the desert is bad but it seems that wasn't a concern when some boob built these sites.

sounds like a great place to me to build the solar array, but hell, what do I know, right?

Feinstein is a tool and always has been. I find her sudden worry interesting. Who is she fronting?
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
250. the circular firing squad lives !!! I feel so, uhh, progressive, that's it.
From Trotskyites accusing other Trotskyites of really being running dogs for fascist captains to well-to-do sniffery about how a 100% ACLU/NARAL Congresswoman just isn't right because she supports gun rights, a proud tradition is being upheld. NIMBY is one flavor of it and Diane is giving a teaching example here.

Fuck all you pantywaist assholes who're too busy congratulating yourselves about how progressive you are while living graciously in your upscale neighborhoods, to have time to discipline your self-indulgent minds long enough to make at least occasional contact with reality. You're a bunch of waste products, and unfortunately the Democratic party is currently doing a good job of representing you. Thankfully, you don't represent the Democratic party. Fuck off.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #250
265. I can't even tell who you're mad at,
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 05:58 PM by Codeine
but Epic Rant, dude! :toast:
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
251. This San Franciscan can't stand Di Fi --
but agrees with her 100% on this issue.

We have have worked long and hard to preserve Mojave -- solar development there would be disasterous.

Having driven all over this State repeatedly over the past two years, I can say there is an abundance of solar opportunies that would spare Mojave.



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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
253. I agree
Put the damn solar panels on top of the buildings. We do not need to use wilderness areas for this purpose. Those areas are supposed to be unspoiled and left for the wildlife. Besides, I do not trust any corporation or private business not to ruin public lands if allowed to do this.

Let them buy their own damn land and stop drinking at the public trough. I get so pissed when private entities are allowed to despoil public lands. From grazing (at rates far below market value) to oil and gas exploration, these companies get an advantage they do not deserve.

We have national parks and wilderness areas so that they are protected from development. I do not consider solar or wind to be any different. Let them buy their own damn land.
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
259. DiFi is another one of the Dems that gives Pres. Obama...
grief. She was a big Hillary Clinton supporter, and she got p*ssed off because President Obama didn't confide in her regarding his CIA pick.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
260. As opposed to the windmills that string along I-10 from El-Paso to Arizona?


There's plenty of desert land for this and this kind of nonsense from her drives me nuts.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
273. Nobody wants these sort of things in their own "backyards"
Remember that even Ted Kennedy argued against windmills in the bay off his beloeved family home.

But in the end the stuff does have to be somewhere.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
274. Here's to a windmill up your a.s Fienstein you idiot!
:toast:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
279. Salt flats
Al Gore and others have said that it would take ten square miles of solar panels to power the entire US, and much of that would fit on Utah's salt flats. How it would be linked into the entire Western grid I'm not sure, but there is probably a way. Not much in the way of sensitive species out there, though.

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Titanothere Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #279
286. Maybe Utah doesn't want solar panels on their flats?
The glare alone would probably blind the I-80 traffic for fifty miles.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #286
287. I seriously doubt that. Big oil might not want solar panels on the salt flats
but the people of Utah could probably use the jobs that would be generated by them.
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