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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 05:38 PM
Original message
Immigration question
My wingnut mother just got telling me that California's high tax rate is a result of illegal immigration. My spidey sense says this is all bullshit, but she referenced an op-ed in the LA times (http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-me-cap2-2009f... ). She was going on and on about how high her taxes were as a result of all those "illegals". Based on this guy's numbers, Californians pay an average of $5 billion in services to illegal immigrants. My questions are, don't illegal immigrants pay taxes? Don't they contribute enormously to the economy of California? If right wingers are so serious about lowering their tax rates because of illegal immigrants, shouldn't the employers of said immigrants be prosecuted? Does $5 billion in taxes, even if that number is correct, substantially lead to an increased tax burden overall?

I have a policy of not engaging my folks in political discussions, since it's just so damn frustrating. But when they talk about "illegals" it really chaps my ass because it makes them sound racist. If anyone could provide some hard numbers or good places to get solid info, I'd appreciate it.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. They pay sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax, etc. and many pay Social Security taxes.
The Social Security taxes go into the fund and undocumented workers never get to claim them.

So, if your mother's on Social Security, they're paying for her check.

If they own homes here they pay property taxes directly. If they rent, the pay the taxes in their rent price.
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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I told her all that stuff
but she's convinced herself that if we just ship all the illegal immigrants in CA back to Mexico, that her taxes will go down.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a pity the Wall Street Bankers weren't all 'illegal' immigrants
Lou Dobbs could have led the Torches and Pitchforks parade against the most massive bailout, sellout ever.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Low wage employers in general put a strain on government services
Your mom should be more upset at companies like Walmart who pay for shit and give no benefits to employees, regardless of immigration status. Walmart alone is reponsible for billions of state health care dollars paid by taxpayers.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. And when you think about it, strain on local social services is about poverty
and low paying jobs, not about immigration. If the undocumented workers in places like meat packing plants were all replaced with citizen workers, the wages would still be low, the work would still be grueling and the resulting health problems would STILL be an issue in our crummy health system.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's just common sense. If she deports everyone
which would cost millions of dollars, btw, prices would go up in California and we'd lose millions in Federal dollars that undocumented workers put into Social Security. Is your mother ready for her SS check to be cut?

Taxes would go up, not down, because our economy would likely tank. Undocumented workers put more in than they take out.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Wait a minute
"prices would go up in California and we'd lose millions in Federal dollars that undocumented workers put into Social Security. Is your mother ready for her SS check to be cut?"

Are you really arguing for exploiting people for low prices and for cheating people out of SS contributions? Those undocumented workers never get to collect that Social Security, you do realize that don't you? They are being ripped off and it is yet another way that our government is subsidizing cheap labor corporations.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No, I'm really not. I'm pointing out the facts.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm not okay with those facts
What the hell is progressive about supporting the existence of an underclass of desperate, exploited, and politically neutered workers? And no, a 'guest worker program' designed by and for the Chamber of Commerce isn't going to improve the situation one iota. Honest to god, the Left better stop being so fucking tone-deaf about this issue, while ceding the populist high ground to assholes like Lou Dobbs.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. You're ranting at the wrong person. I didn't say what I'd like
or prefer or would support. I described the situation as it is now.

The left has always been somewhat tone deaf to the everyday lives of poor people, and especially when they are poor people that look different. It's just much worse right now because poverty is much worse right now and the people most directly affected are invisible to the political class for the most part.
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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Tell your mother that Republicans should stop hiring illegal immigrants.
The only reason Republicans hate illegal immigrants is because if they became legal they would vote Democrat. Of course the reason Republicans hire illegal immigrants is because the will work for next to nothing. Democrats who favor unions do not want more illegal immigrants. Tell her to put the blame where it belongs.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Link to information on this:
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/index.php?content=searchform

It's just a Lou Dobbs-right wing talking point. Something they made up and just continue to propagate.
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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Thanks for the link
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. We benefit more financially from immigrants than they cost us
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Who is 'we'?
Those Chamber of Commerce and libertarian sites have been linked ad nauseum but they don't tell the whole story. BTW, the second link you provide is from a RW site and the third is a fundie one. You might want to actually read the sources you link from before you just pick the first three items off of Google.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Did you bother to read the links or are you just concerned about the sources?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes I did and here's an especially lovely quote from the RW libertarian site:
Protecting Sam from income loss, though, is inappropriate. To prevent Juan from entering America is to do nothing more virtuous than to protect Sam from competition. But it is also to prevent George and Bill and other Americans from freely dealing with Juan, who is someone they would otherwise choose to deal with! To restrict immigration is to deny to Americans their freedom of association. Sam, then, becomes a monopolist under immigration restrictions. If Sam suffers income loss when these restrictions are lifted, he is no more worthy of our solicitude than is any other monopolist whose monopoly privilege unravels.

Oh yeah, this is definitely a mindset that progressives should embrace. "Fuck working Americans! If they can't compete with cheaper foreign workers, too bad so sad!" Way to reach out to the Democratic base! :sarcasm:

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. There was other info at that link showing the economic benefits of immigrants
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Benefits to whom? Not working Americans at the bottom of the ladder.
But hey, fuck them. They don't count. :eyes:
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Yep, that's it.
The benefits go to those who want to exploit cheap labor. On the other hand, Americans who'd like a decent wage? They're fucked.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. And oddly enough, those working people are the Democratic base.
Which some of these tone deaf "progressives" in this thread haven't figured out yet. Lou Dobbs et. al. certainly have.
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Narkos Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Thanks for the tip on "googling"
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. FACTS on illegals (from my journal)
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/27

I literally spent MINUTES reading and collecting this information.

No, it isn't 100% complete but if you post something you are looking for I will do my best to find the FACT on it for you as best as I can (meaning I will tell you how much I trust it and you can make your own decision).

This issue is one with many "facts" to it but I trust what I am about to post.

Much thanks to suffragette.

For round numbers there appear to be about 10 Million "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented workers". Not to parse words here, they both mean basically the same thing.

Of undocumented/illegals--> 60-75% entered illegally. The other 25-40% entered legally and overstayed their visas or otherwise violated the terms of their admission.
-Of those 57% are Mexican, 23% are from other Latin American countries, 10% are Asian, 5% are European or Canadian, and 5% are from everywhere else.

Of the Foreign Born Population (~ 35 Million) in the US 25% are illegal/undocumented-- 30% are Legal, 30% Naturalized, 8% Refugees, 5% Temporary legal.

40% of illegals are women. 54% live in married families or other families. Fewer then half are single men and unattached.

According to the US Social Security Administration 75% pay payroll taxes and will contribute $6-7 BILLION in Social Security funds that they will never claim.

Okay here is where it gets fuzzy.

90-96% are employed (I saw both numbers)

AND NOW the big question

Do they drain social service resources MORE than they contribute?

The CATO Institute (yes them) says:

Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 -- they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html

PBS (yes THEM) says

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in public services in their lifetime?

REALITY: Welfare use among non-refugee immigrants is lower than among U.S. native-born citizens in the same age group (15-64). The 1990 census reported that 20.4 percent of immigrants were on welfare, compared with 26.2 percent of U.S. native-born citizens. In 1997, immigrants paid an estimated $133 billion in federal, state and local taxes. A typical immigrant and his or her offspring pay an estimated $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in federal, state and local benefits over the course of their lifetimes.

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thecity/immigratio...

And Finally Jesus-is-Savior (with hypnotic music) says:

5. Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents). The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that the average Mexican illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%...
and adds


3. Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Okay I threw that one in.

Well so far that is what I have found. If you want me to go searching for any other specific questions please post them.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Top 10 Immigration Myths and Facts
1. Immigrants don’t pay taxes
All immigrants pay taxes, whether income, property, sales, or
other. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their
accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay
between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local
taxes. Even undocumented immigrants pay income taxes, as
evidenced by the Social Security Administration’s “suspense file”
(taxes that cannot be matched to workers’ names and social
security numbers), which grew $20 billion between 1990 and
1998.

2. Immigrants come here to take welfare
Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members.
Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than
native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of
the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population
(11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public
benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently
favorable to the U.S., unless the “study” was undertaken by an
anti-immigrant group. In one estimate, immigrants earn about
$240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and
use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the
data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than
the amount of government services they use.
Due to welfare reform, legal immigrants are severely restricted from accessing public benefits, and undocumented
immigrants are even further precluded from anything other than emergency services. Anti-immigrant groups skew
these figures by including programs used by U.S. citizen children of immigrants in their definition of immigrant
welfare use, among other tactics.

3. Immigrants send all their money back to their home countries
In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households,
immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax
revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it
is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their
home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective
forms of direct foreign investment.

4. Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans
The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early
1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate
and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create
jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students
allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open.
While there has been no comprehensive study done of
immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in
Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian
immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and
nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.

5. Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy
During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born,
filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and
low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key
sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving
economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly
$10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of
immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we
haven’t spent a penny on their education, yet they are
transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion
toward our social security system over the next 20 years.

6. Immigrants don’t want to learn English or become Americans
Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak
English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult
level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are
naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s,
this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become
eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of
immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events:
enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and
the terrorist attacks in 2001.

7. Today’s immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago
The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now
stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately
15%. Similar to accusations about today’s immigrants, those of
100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic
neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up
newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés.
They also experienced the same types of discrimination that
today’s immigrants face, and integrated within American culture
at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember
that every new wave of immigrants has been met with
suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of
immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.

8. Most immigrants cross the border illegally
Around 75% have legal permanent (immigrant) visas; of the
25% that are undocumented, 40% overstayed temporary (nonimmigrant)
visas.

9. Weak U.S. border enforcement has lead to high undocumented immigration
From 1986 to 1998, the Border Patrol’s budget increased sixfold
and the number of agents stationed on our southwest
border doubled to 8,500. The Border Patrol also toughened its
enforcement strategy, heavily fortifying typical urban entry
points and pushing migrants into dangerous desert areas, in
hopes of deterring crossings. Instead, the undocumented
immigrant population doubled in that timeframe, to 8 million—
despite the legalization of nearly 3 million immigrants after the
enactment of the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986.
Insufficient legal avenues for immigrants to enter the U.S.,
compared with the number of jobs available to them, have
created this current conundrum.

10. The war on terrorism can be won through immigration restrictions
No security expert since September 11th, 2001 has said that
restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the
terrorist attacks—instead, they key is good use of good
intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal
visas. Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants
in the name of national security have netted no terrorism
prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the
opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted
communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with
information.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. More Myths
A look behind the anti-immigrant furor

In the buildup to the 2008 elections, the right-wing Republicans have decided to make immigrants the scapegoat for the failure of the Bush administration and the shortcomings of the capitalist system. Right-wing personalities on cable TV, on talk radio and in newspapers are fueling this process. Vicious lies are being told about immigrants.

The questions and answers here are designed to provide you with accurate information about the impact of immigrant workers and their families, with or without papers, on the United States today.



Why are so many immigrants coming to the United States?

• Working people in Mexico and other poor countries have been devastated by the practices of U.S. and other international corporations. So-called free trade pacts like the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) are imposed with conditions that prevent poor countries from meeting their people’s needs.

• After NAFTA came into force, more than 1.3 million Mexican farmers were driven out of business. U.S. agribusiness, subsidized by our tax dollars, sold corn in Mexico at lower prices than farmers there could produce. Undocumented Mexican immigration to U.S. rose 60 percent.

• Big corporations in the United States have been glad to take advantage of the cheap labor, and have sent labor recruiters into economically depressed areas of Mexico, Central America and elsewhere.


So why don’t people in those countries fix their situation at home instead of coming here?

• U.S.-based multinational corporations have put heavy pressure on other countries, including Mexico, to keep their economies open to penetration by U.S. corporations.

• When these countries resist this pressure, the U.S. government and corporations intervene with threats, bribery and even military force to stop union organizing and political change from taking place.

• With this pro-business, anti-worker foreign policy, the U.S. government has sponsored coups, civil wars and dictators in Haiti, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Honduras.


My grandparents came from Europe legally. Why can’t people from Mexico and other countries do the same? Why do they butt ahead in line?

• It is not a matter of “butting in line.” There is no line for them to get in! In 2005, the U.S. government gave out only 5,000 permanent legal resident visas for low-skilled workers.

• Even people married to U.S. citizens or permanent legal residents sometimes have to wait years to join their spouses. This is a different situation from the one our grandparents faced.

• Today it is nearly impossible for most people who don’t have relatives here or specialized skills to come at all.


Do immigrants cause unemployment?

• There are not a fixed number of jobs in our economy. The truth is immigrant workers and their families, like all other workers, create jobs at a rate corresponding to those they fill.

• The real causes of unemployment are rooted in the decreasing wages being paid to all workers. Our country’s workers can no longer afford to buy the products they produce.

• Immigrant workers are not responsible for the millions of jobs wiped out by the shutting down of plants across the nation. They are not the cause of massive job loss which occurs when employers increase the workloads of some employees while laying off others.


Do immigrants drive down U.S. wages?

• It’s true that today U.S. workers are seeing their wages drop. This is especially true for young workers and people of color. But more than anything, this is due to a Congress and a president who refuse to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. It is due to right-wing policies that deny workers the right to form unions.

• Employers will always take advantage of workers who don’t have the right to defend themselves, using one group of vulnerable workers against the rest.

• Immigrants are not the cause of higher unemployment rates of African Americans and other U.S. minorities. The continued toleration of racial discrimination in hiring, the dismantling of affirmative action, and weak labor laws are to blame.

• The only effective response is to fight for equal treatment and equal rights for all workers. That is why the legalization of immigrant workers, with full labor and civil rights, is in the interest of us all.


Do immigrants join labor unions?

• Immigrant workers, even those without documents, have been at the forefront of many recent labor actions including organizing drives and strikes.

• One example is immigrant workers at Smithfield Foods’ meat-packing plant in North Carolina, who struck for safe working conditions alongside their African American and white co-workers.

• The roofers’ union reports huge organizing successes among immigrant workers in New Mexico.

• Immigrant workers are at the core of organizing efforts of laundry workers across the nation.

• Employers regularly use the threat of arrest and deportation to break up union actions where immigrant workers are involved. Nevertheless, union membership is growing even faster among immigrant workers than among others.


Do immigrants pay their fair share of taxes?

• Like other workers, most undocumented and documented immigrant workers have both federal and state income taxes deducted from their paychecks. An undocumented worker picking tomatoes in Florida pays more income taxes proportionally than many corporate executives.

• Undocumented workers pay $7 billion a year into Social Security. However, they are ineligible to collect any benefits.

• Immigrants, like the rest of us, pay sales taxes every time they buy something. They pay property taxes too, either on property they own or through their rent.


What about the crime rate among immigrants?

• Numerous studies show that the rate of violent and property crime among immigrants, with or without documents, is lower than that of comparable sectors of the U.S. population, even though anti-immigrant agitators try to give the opposite impression by highlighting isolated cases of shocking crimes.


What about terrorism?

• Undocumented immigrant workers were not linked to 9/11 or any other recent terrorist attack. Every one of the 9/11 terrorists came here on a legal visa issued by the United States government.

• The vast majority of undocumented and documented immigrants have nothing whatever to do with terrorism, and come here only to work and be with family.

• If hard-working immigrants could have a legal way of coming here, the danger of terrorists entering secretly would be lessened.


What is the impact of immigrants on social, health care and educational services?

• Immigrant workers are not getting a free ride. Like other workers, most immigrants pay the same federal, state and local taxes which finance our schools, health clinics and other public services.

• Immigrant workers, alongside their native-born co-workers, generate fortunes for their employers in industries such as agribusiness, meatpacking, hotels, restaurants and construction.

• However, Republican administrations since Reagan have given the super-rich huge tax cuts. If these were rolled back, there would be enough money to finance needed services for everybody: immigrant and U.S.-born.

• There is no evidence that new immigrants pose a public health danger to their neighbors. Indeed, studies show that they are on the whole healthier than comparable sectors of the U.S.-born population.


Do immigrants threaten the English language and American culture?

• There have always been other languages spoken alongside English in the United States, including Native American (Indian) languages, Spanish in the Southwest and Florida, French in Louisiana and German dialects in Pennsylvania.

• Our country’s experience has been that while new immigrants may struggle a bit with the language, the second generation always speaks English fluently. This is just as true of Latino immigrants today as it was of other immigrants in the past.

• All over the country, classes to teach English to non-English speakers are jammed full.

• The vast majority of new immigrants believe fervently in democracy, family, freedom and social justice, and thus are a boon to our values, not a menace.


What is really behind the anti-immigrant furor?

• Right-wing politicians and their media supporters want to distract the public’s attention from the scandals of the Bush administration, the war in Iraq, the health care crisis, the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs and the home foreclosures disaster. They are using the “illegal immigrant” scare to do this.

• Big business interests want cheap labor but do not want low-paid workers to have rights. So they whip up scare campaigns against immigrant workers. Their aim is to keep them quiet and underpaid, and the workers divided.

• Hard-core racist forces are using the immigration issue to whip up hate and fear against Mexicans, other Latinos, Africans, Middle Easterners and South Asians. Their strategy is to give legitimacy to racist attitudes and policies in this country. This works to the detriment not only of immigrants but of all U.S. minorities and the rest of us.


What is the solution?

The solution is not to hang a “keep out” sign on the Statue of Liberty’s torch. The solution is not to waste vast amounts of taxpayer money on a useless and environmentally destructive fence. The solution is to carry out a comprehensive, worker-friendly immigration reform including:

• Legalization of the current undocumented immigrants, as quickly and cheaply as possible, with full labor and civil rights and a clear path to citizenship.

• Changes in U.S. visa policies so that ordinary working people who want to come here and live and work can do so without violating laws or risking their lives.

• Avoidance of guest worker schemes that keep foreign workers in conditions of serfdom without the right to defend themselves or integrate themselves into our society.

• Giving immigrant workers the same rights on the job and in the community that other workers have, so they can join unions and fight together for better wages and working conditions.

• Changes in U.S. trade and foreign policy so that the development of the economies of poorer countries is no longer undermined by multinational corporate interests or U.S. government interference.

http://www.pww.org/index.php/article/articleview/12336/1/406
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Great resource.
Especially this part:

What is the solution?

The solution is not to hang a “keep out” sign on the Statue of Liberty’s torch. The solution is not to waste vast amounts of taxpayer money on a useless and environmentally destructive fence. The solution is to carry out a comprehensive, worker-friendly immigration reform including:

• Legalization of the current undocumented immigrants, as quickly and cheaply as possible, with full labor and civil rights and a clear path to citizenship.

• Changes in U.S. visa policies so that ordinary working people who want to come here and live and work can do so without violating laws or risking their lives.

• Avoidance of guest worker schemes that keep foreign workers in conditions of serfdom without the right to defend themselves or integrate themselves into our society.

• Giving immigrant workers the same rights on the job and in the community that other workers have, so they can join unions and fight together for better wages and working conditions.

• Changes in U.S. trade and foreign policy so that the development of the economies of poorer countries is no longer undermined by multinational corporate interests or U.S. government interference.



Immigration reform MUST contain all of those things if it is going to succeed and not screw over both native and foreign workers.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The only one I take issue with is #5
5. Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy
During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born,
filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and
low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key
sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving
economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly
$10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of
immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we
haven’t spent a penny on their education, yet they are
transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion
toward our social security system over the next 20 years.



When they say "gaps" left by U.S. workers in high and low skill jobs, what do they really mean? That there simply aren't the workers? Or that they won't work for lower wages, fewer benefits, and in less safe conditions?

When they say 'net benefit' of $10 billion, what does that mean? Where is the money going? Is it being reinvested in the community or is it going into the employers' pockets as profit?

When they say we get people that we don't have to educate, what does that mean? That there is less need to educate our own young people because we can externalize that cost to other countries? Who will then export their citizens, who are willing to work for less? Whom does that benefit, really? American citizens or multi-national corporations?

When they say that immigrants will contribute to SS, how many of them will be able to collect on it?



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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. That is a description of failing polices but not to blame immigrants for it
When they say "gaps" left by U.S. workers in high and low skill jobs, what do they really mean? That there simply aren't the workers? Or that they won't work for lower wages, fewer benefits, and in less safe conditions?

it can mean many things like in the 90's many high skill workers were encourage to start their own business with the help of venture capital, in fact they created many high skill jobs so many Americans change careers to occupied those jobs.
As many americans move up the career ladder they left gaps in the low skill jobs sector of the economy. We all know that low skill jobs like waitress, cleaners, labors and farm work have never had the benefits of the auto or aerospace industry.

When they say 'net benefit' of $10 billion, what does that mean? Where is the money going? Is it being reinvested in the community or is it going into the employers' pockets as profit?

some will end up as tax other utilities for the corporations and small business

When they say we get people that we don't have to educate, what does that mean? That there is less need to educate our own young people because we can externalize that cost to other countries? Who will then export their citizens, who are willing to work for less? Whom does that benefit, really? American citizens or multi-national corporations?

That's a failure of our the education system, anyone who can pay for higher education is welcome not the most with the best abilities.

When they say that immigrants will contribute to SS, how many of them will be able to collect on it?

None, the government is exploiting the immigrants in it's own way.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You will notice that I never once blamed immigrants for these policies
Never have and never will. Why do people jump to the conclusion that you are anti-immigrant because you question the rhetoric of the cheap labor lobby?

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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I did notice that none of your comments blame the immigrants
now, the anti-immigrant crowd has many flavors and tastes, they can rise the flag of patriotism, argue about moral values and religion, cultural differences of the immigrants and many conspiracy theories like the invasion of the aliens, that is on the freeper side. On the "left" we got the ones accusing immigrants of stilling their jobs, lowering wages, grabbing their benefits and even taking advantage of the civil rights they fought for.

Those two groups are on the same boat none of them wants to fix the problem but to blame immigrants.
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