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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:44 PM
Original message
time to give up?
it's official, war criminals get a free pass..

neither the President, or Congress, or the DOJ, will do a fucking thing.



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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. letting the chips fall where they may at this point
I have to watch my blood pressure. (just remember all this when the next admin is in office and they attack another country under false pretenses and go about torturing people again...remind people of why it is happening, because NO precedent was sent this time and no one was held accountable...)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Time to give up "trusting" politicians to do anything other than be politicians. K&R
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe
Who needs principles when bread and circuses(programs)are much more important.

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MrPerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. I watched "Strip Search" on HBO last night.
My conclusion: Maggie Gyllenhall is hot naked.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. that gal creeps me out
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Maggie is hot..
... period :)
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Granting your premise, arguendo.
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 12:53 PM by Davis_X_Machina
If they do nothing, what do you do then? And why aren't you doing it?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I have been doing it for years
many of us have!
countless phone calls, letters, demonstrations, petitions..

what else is there to do?
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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Eichmann, from the grave says...
"Damn... missed it by 48 years!":evilfrown:
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. No, time to calm down and rationally assert our principles.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/10/AR2009041003269.html

But officials said that did not foreclose a change of heart after the completion in July of a comprehensive review of detainee policy.

"While that review is pending, we concluded that it was necessary to appeal this ruling," said Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd.


As Obama seeks a second term, he must certainly expect to have to answer for these issues. Have some fucking faith in our system.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. "Have some fucking faith in our system."
based on what?
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Already answered. n/t
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why not?
Go make yourself happy. Cultivate your garden.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. The upside: Now we know how the system actually works.
Along the lines of how Michael Parenti draws a distinction between "government" and "the state" (as in "the national security state"). The former being more or less what it is represented as being by the corporate media: political in the traditional sense of the word. The workings of the latter, however, are seldom if ever represented by corporate media. However, they can be seen in instances such as this where we see the rule of law CAN NOT be brought to bare against political individuals regardless how much evidence there may be that laws have been broken and by any acceptable standard, justice has not been and, indeed, can not be served. Rather, identifiable persons, arguably members of a criminal class, have been rewarded and protected -- precisely because their actions were initiated, approved and sanctioned by the state, however much they may be in contradiction to both national and international law and treaty.

It is a new paradigm -- a more accurate one, IMO. This is important especially in terms of whether or not we "give up".

One can not organize an effective oppositional strategy in the absence of an accurate analysis of the opposition. So long as we "think" that what we are up against is merely the "Republicans" or "conservatism," then the effectiveness of any strategy is limited to that arena -- that "perception". However, as we begin to perceive the deeper layers of fascism that are ingrained within the national security state apparatus itself-- when we begin to perceive that it is an imperial megalith that operates beyond the control of ANY party or electorate -- at least then we've begun to identify who the real enemy is.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. exactly
the only solution is an elevated awareness on the part of the people.
I continue to do my part to educate, but I don't expect the critical mass of awareness that is needed.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I almost agree with your analysis but lets think about this.
Let me say first off that I tend toward short range pessimism and have a bizarre penchant for long-range optimism despite all good evidence to remain skeptical.

It seems to me that since the internet, especially since 9/11 and even more especially since 2006, there has been a growing awareness of the "deep state" dimension. It is difficult to access this with any accuracy because our "social self-image" is still reflected to us by the distorted mirror of corporate media.

Earlier to day I was reading this rather long essay concerning the plight of newspapers and journalism in a post-internet world:
http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2009/03/newspapers-and-thinking-the-unthinkable/

Print media does much of society’s heavy journalistic lifting, from flooding the zone — covering every angle of a huge story — to the daily grind of attending the City Council meeting, just in case. This coverage creates benefits even for people who aren’t newspaper readers, because the work of print journalists is used by everyone from politicians to district attorneys to talk radio hosts to bloggers. The newspaper people often note that newspapers benefit society as a whole. This is true, but irrelevant to the problem at hand; “You’re gonna miss us when we’re gone!” has never been much of a business model. So who covers all that news if some significant fraction of the currently employed newspaper people lose their jobs?

I don’t know. Nobody knows. We’re collectively living through 1500, when it’s easier to see what’s broken than what will replace it. The internet turns 40 this fall. Access by the general public is less than half that age. Web use, as a normal part of life for a majority of the developed world, is less than half that age. We just got here. Even the revolutionaries can’t predict what will happen.

Imagine, in 1996, asking some net-savvy soul to expound on the potential of craigslist, then a year old and not yet incorporated. The answer you’d almost certainly have gotten would be extrapolation: “Mailing lists can be powerful tools”, “Social effects are intertwining with digital networks”, blah blah blah. What no one would have told you, could have told you, was what actually happened: craiglist became a critical piece of infrastructure. Not the idea of craigslist, or the business model, or even the software driving it. Craigslist itself spread to cover hundreds of cities and has become a part of public consciousness about what is now possible. Experiments are only revealed in retrospect to be turning points.

In craigslist’s gradual shift from ‘interesting if minor’ to ‘essential and transformative’, there is one possible answer to the question “If the old model is broken, what will work in its place?” The answer is: Nothing will work, but everything might. Now is the time for experiments, lots and lots of experiments, each of which will seem as minor at launch as craigslist did, as Wikipedia did, as octavo volumes did.


The point the author is making is that we are in a period of revolutionary transition. This author is discussing something very specific, how print media changed the landscape of civilization after 1500. Most everything we know and accept as "civilization" in the West has its roots in the Renaissance. My appraisal is that what we are beginning to pass through now is another "revolutionary moment" that may transform everything in its path. Clearly there are those who have incredible vested interest in managing this "revolution" to insure their continued economic and political hegemony -- thus the continued rise of the technological police state which currently justifies its existence behind the very real threat of terrorism. As we begin to understand that this threat primarily emanates from within the "deep state" itself, this changes our whole perception of and relationship to this threat. Currently the so called "war on terror" is a domestic and international social management system. But as the author of the above is attempting to indicate, during times of genuine revolution, the actual outcomes of even apparently innocuous technology deployments can not be clearly foreseen. What happens, for example, as the previous methodologies for hierarchical social control (mass media) are increasingly replaced by peer-to-peer information streams?

This brings up a lot of interesting questions. I think DU can be seen as an interesting example. On one hand it is an information stream where many people here share a particular political perspective -- a dynamic perspective that is changing as we go forward. Within it we see there are many who, although they may not yet fully embrace the "deep state" paradigm, nevertheless, through observation, are coming to see that it is a "more accurate map" of the political landscape than can be had through traditional journalistic means. On one hand there is an attempt to keep all this within the boundaries of "politics as usual" and yet increasingly it is becoming clear to many that "shoe" no longer fits. The search for new shoes begins.

Ultimately I think the question is going to come down to value and how value is "monetized" in the market place. Currently that monetization is under the control of a banking system that has its roots in a "media revolution" (printing, printing, printing) already 500 years in our historical rear view mirror. I believe that is why the current stage we are passing through is so challenging: We're on the cusp of a completely new social paradigm that may, ultimately, make the post Renaissance era seem as "antiquated" to us as the previous, "Gothic" era did after about 1700.

There is a power struggle going on with the wealthiest class consolidating its assets and power in an attempt to sustain a hierarchical system which, on one hand, seems feasible given technological developments but which, in point of fact, may miss the "revolutionizing" consequences of the very technology employed to implement it. Perhaps it is a kind of race to see which aspects of human consciousness can best exploit the possibilities of this technology. Will we end up in a global system of perpetual fear controlled by an increasingly paranoid wealthy elite who view "the rest of us" as the barbarians at the gates -- or will ingenuity, creativity, insight and the indelible human spirit transform its use into a kind of anarchy that renders their hierarchical paranoia irrelevant?

If the Constitution can not be employed to guarantee the rule of law and protect our inalienable rights, then I argue it has already become irrelevant. Most people don't know it yet but if I'm right this will become increasingly obvious as we proceed.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I am not adverse to optimism,
certainly, if we can help illuminate the world around us and influence the shift to a healthier paradigm, I'm there.
It is a gut wrenching transition, that is for sure. I do worry about the Alex Jones' of this world also.
The "deep state" perception can get real murky.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

:thumbsup:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. We are
...the change. Uncontrolled and only slightly censored, we here are the cusp of the wave of the future of information gathering and dissemination. Really free. What we must be careful of is that we build the foundation strong and what you've brought to us here is some material to help us design the foundation.

It is folks like you, Beam Me Up, who make DU such a richly rewarding journey.
Thanks.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes. n/t
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. +1...(nt)
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. NGU


(apply that to your simplest life's quest, and live long and prosper)
dp
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick
Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours
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