Pres Obama should pardon Lynndie England.

Eric Holder said that rank and file sadistic torturers should not be held accountable for torturing because it was authorized by Gonzo. In other words they were "just following orders".

IMO the rank and file sadistic torturers should be given severe penalties to prevent this from happening again. If the rank and file knew they would be held accountable, they might refuse in the future. What kind of a human being could sadistically torture other human beings?

because their actions were authorized by the Bush Administration, and the Bush Administration shouldn't be held accountable because.....why??

And of course the bush admin should be held accountable. Holder won't prosecute the rank and file, not because he is sticking up for them but, because he knows that would lead to prosecution of the bush admin and neither he nor Pres Obama wants that.

She was over the top.

Some time is required. I don't know what she was sentenced for and maybe she's done it, but her and Graner, although not responsible, weren't necessarily PC either.

beyond increasing the humiliation by posing in photographs her boyfriend took?

I think there is definite scapegoating here. She was nailed so Gonzo, Yoo, Addington, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Stupid could all go free. She was raw meat for the pack of media dogs.

Commuting her sentence should be the first step in going after the real bastards, the ones who ordered this stuff. It didn't happen in a vacuum and she shouldn't be bearing the brunt of the consequences.

How about those that actually killed detainees? Or just kicked them and beat them every day for months? How about the water boarders? We only know a small fraction of what really happened.

And I think those that authorized the torture deserve much harsher ones. Following orders doesn't excuse everything. And from those photos, it didn't look to me like she was really struggling with her conscience while carrying out those orders.

The "Nuremberg defense" was invalid because those who GAVE the orders were prosecuted as well. When a 'blessing' (of immunity) is afforded to those giving the orders, it's a gross injustice to punish those who followed orders. ONLY by demonstrating the ILLEGALITY of the orders through prosecution and conviction can their very ILLEGALITY be demonstrated.

This is the failure of logic and justice shown by those who ignore the fact that the command structure has escaped ANY culpability.

If they're not prepared to go after the brass/admins, then they should give up on the peons

We should always go after the rank and file because they do the actual sadistic work. It's one thing to sit in an office and order people to brutally torture people, it is quite another to do the actual sadistic work. Don't even think that I think the leaders are less guilty, but trying to point out that if you physically brutally torture someone, you are among the lowest of the low. Following orders is a sick rationalization for torturing someone. A normal person couldn't be forced to torture, only the sickest of the sick.
Punishing the leaders, although important will not prevent future sick wacko leaders. But punishing the rank and file might prevent future rank and file from "just following orders". These sicko people still work for the CIA.

An old Chinese once said, "If you cut off the head of the dragon, he will just grow another, but if you cut off his feet he will never get athletes foot." Well....it made sense at the time.

Please don't point out that I have argued the other way before.

... when those who issue 'illegal orders' are not prosecuted and when those orders are never FOUND to be 'illegal.' Not even the Swiss could sustain a military organization which such insane approaches. The cartoonish notion that it's somehow 'easy' to make such judgments in a war zone betrays abject ignorance of the utter insanity of such conditions and a failure to comprehend "unit cohesion" -- the fact that each person's very life depends on the mutual support of others in their unit.

To argue that an order was 'illegal' WITHOUT actually prosecuting it as such is the height of hypocrisy under already insane conditions.

This is NOT to say that rogue behavior of the rank-and-file need be tolerated to any extent. The SOLE assurance that rogues don't run amok in a war zone is the integrity of the command structure. Military discipline has valid and essential justification. Erode it and there's hell to pay.

Furthermore, to argue that only the "sickest of the sick" could be influenced to engage in torture betrays ignorance of the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Jail Study. The vast majority of people, even without military training and indoctrination, can be caused to engage in such brutality. Fact.

I agree that humans can be made to do anything under the right circumstances. I don’t believe that applies here. I do not believe that strong coercion was used to force people against their will to torture.

And citizens of the United States, especially those in the armed services and CIA, are well aware that torture is illegal from multiple standpoints and have a moral obligation to not follow orders that are illegal.

As for having to follow “illegal orders”, I doubt that the leaders will admit to ever giving illegal orders. Was England following specific illegal orders or implied orders. As with Lt. Calley, England was doing what she “thought” her superiors wanted.

My point, as lousy as I am doing making it, is that the torturers knew that they were breaking laws and that they were neither specifically ordered or coerced into sadistically torturing human beings. They were complicit and deserve to be punished. And removed from the CIA.

The pictures of England and the fact that Abu Grahib made the news at all were because of a soldier that felt very guilty about what was going on there. Not everyone loses their conscience in times of war or just because they're given power over another human being.

I'm sorry, but you always have a choice. And if you choose to torture another human being, especially one who's country you illegally invaded, you are responsible for your actions. Your degree of responsibility may vary depending on the situation, but you are responsible nonetheless. Lyndie England made her choice. The soldier that exposed her and the others made theirs. One is a hero that will probably never get the recognition they deserve. The other has quite rightfully been imprisoned and shamed for the rest of her life.

I also read an interview with England not too long ago. I can't find it now, but in it she basically blames the media for exposing the whole story. I'm sorry, but I have ZERO sympathy for her after that. Still painting herself as the victim.

Show me the court verdict that (1) found the invasion illegal, and (2) found someone guilty of that law-breaking.

Unless and until that's shown, I don't give a FLYING FUCK how often we spout the claim, scapegoating people who have LESS enfranchisement than we just doesn't cut it.

Unless and until the Cheney/Bush cabal are brought to justice for these (alleged) crimes, we are ALL a nation of cowards and criminals ... and going after the weakest in some infantile fit of rage and pique doesn't help.

It's almost forty years since I had my fill of sophomoric rhetoric WITHOUT ACTION to ensure that the claims if "illegality" are, IN FACT, prosecuted.

Lip service without a real prosecution and conviction is social and political cowardice, imho.

The government might be, but nobody here is. And your argument about showing you a verdict is total bullshit and you know it. There hasn't been a trial. That doesn't change the fact that the invasion was illegal.

And like I said, just because the higher ups haven't been prosecuted doesn't take away the guilt of those who actually did the torturing. Your attempt to say that they have no guilt is both childish and dangerous. People are responsible for their own actions.

Like I said, if there's a soldier there that knew what was going on was wrong, and took appropriate action in getting the story out, then that proves that people are capable of knowing right from wrong, even in a war zone and even when under orders. Fuck Lyndie England. It's too bad that those who ordered the torture will likely never be prosecuted, but she chose to do their bidding. She chose to take part in their war of aggression, and she chose to commit their atrocities for them. No excuses. And no sympathy from me. You can moan about the injustice of it all you want but I personally think you are beyond naive and extremely misguided for doing so. Your compassion would be better spent someplace else.

You ought to try putting some skin in the game some time. :shrug:

Not that I really care. I'm just kind of curious.

apart from your constant assumption that anyone who disagrees with you has never served, I've not seen you withhold your opinions on politicians though I've not seen you state you've ever been one, nor bankers, nor doctors, nor pharma workers etc etc

:eyes: Does the cape hang nicely?

your snarky arsed reply had WHAT to do with my question?

You post all over the board that anyone who hasn't served in the forces can't have an honest opinion on it - the question I posed was a legit one - you chose to answer it like a child, well done. Now go have a tanty and get your nappy changed, it, like your attitude, stinks.

I have no problem with the prosecution of military personnel who carry out illegal orders ... AS LONG AS THOSE WHO GAVE THE ORDERS ARE PROSECUTED.

There can be absolutely no question in any sane person's mind that Spec. England was acting in accord with the command authority above her. It is total, abject corruption -- in the military, in the government, and among 'We The People' -- to make junior personnel the "fall guys" for such policies.

But we have much more extensive knowledge about her case than we do about others, because she was dumb enough to bring a camera and take pictures of herself giving a thumbs up in front of the pile of naked men. That was probably a case of a sadist playing her role and perhaps the higher ups knew she was a sadist and intentionally put her in that position.

However, The Milgram Experiment showed that you can easily coerce non sadistic people into doing this sort of thing.

rank and file should be prosecuted. Therefore neither should the leaders. If we prosecuted the rank and file, public opinion would demand the prosecution of the leaders. Neither Pres Obama nor Eric Holder want the leaders prosecuted. Therefore, no prosecution of the rank and file. That would make you happy, as you said "either BOTH or NEITHER". I think you will get your wish.

Those who actually did and those who ordered it. Maybe the ones who ordered it should do more time than the others (kind of like the Mafia dons who order the murders but rarely commit them themselves).

of the not-too-bright person which is prevalent in the armed services today. They are so desperate for recruits they bend the rules and will take almost anyone who shows up. Too many Lyndie Englands and not enough Pat Tillmans imo.

to manipulate. They are more likely to go along with the crowd. In this case, you have Ms. England who was in love with one of the sadistic ring leaders. Easily manipulable.

and she's still shoveling bullshit to protect her superiors

anyway, she's out of jail and dishonorably discharged...i believe whether or not the Obama administration has the will to see justice served, all guilty parties will be held accountable in their own way and in time...

you will skate.

Eric Holder said in so many words that the rank and file (other than England) will not be prosecuted because they were following orders. Even when the orders were in the form of a memo that violated the law.

Undoing one of the few torture convictions via a pardon seems unwise legally and unjust to the victims.

have refused to follow the order and didn't.

Even in the highly unlikely instance that we managed to create a lasting peace in Iraq, install a working multiparty democratic political system and do all the other shit Bush claimed he was going to do (never mind that it won't ever happen; we're fantasizing here) the Abu Ghraib photos would taint all the progress. And of all the photos in the batch, the two most famous ones are the hooded man standing with arms outstretched, and Lynndie pointing at someone's dick.

Fuck her.

blaming her for the loss is sure stretching that rubber band a long way,,That was Bush and Cheeeeeenys war.. not US,,,,

using your logic. And those that have done worse skate because they haven't been exposed. No offense, but this is republiCon speak.

...Check out the Torturing Democracy link below, the legal paper trail from Bush on down is public record...it's a matter now of finding the political will to use this evidence against them.

we should throw Bush and Cheney in jail (which we should--that's not in question), but turn Lynndie loose?

No. That's silly. Just as silly as the implication that I think the people who exposed Lynndie should be blamed--they did their jobs in exposing these atrocities. I really think we should round up the members of the Bush Administration for crimes against humanity. The most significant players--Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Powell, Condi, Rumsfeld and Gonzalez--should all be executed. The rest of them should be thrown in jail right alongside Lynndie. Because, like it or not, she either knew what she was doing was wrong, or she has no moral compass and is therefore too dangerous to be allowed in polite society.

I want bush, Cheney, etc to be punished to the max. I also want all the rank and file sadistic tortures, those that beat, kicked, waterboarded, hung from the ceiling, etc, to be also punished.

What I don't want is for Linndie England to be the only one held accountable. Eric Holder said that the rank and file tortures should not be prosecuted because they were only following orders. Doesn't that apply to England?

There are those that feel that since we punished England, now our hands are clean. I say bullshit.

of Holder.

Would you torture if given the order by a superior? I wouldn't. They could've sent me to the brig before I would have done that stuff to another human being. If Holder genuinely feels this way, he should be going after Gonzo like gangbusters.

Of course there is the argument used above that if your family was threatened then you might. But that is far from the case here. The torturers are sicko's like Lyndie and need to be punished.

were prosecuted for war crimes after WWII.

Of course you're right.

Pardon England?! No! Indict Cheney, Gonzo, Yoo, Addington and Rumsfeld. For a start.

And as you say punishing England et al. is the only hope that future rank and file torturers are deterred and do the right thing: refuse to follow criminal orders.

I want the rest of the bastards punished down to the rank and file torturers.

Now I want every son of a bitch that did the torture, every son of a bitch that ordered the torture, every son of a bitch that authorized the torture, and every son of a bitch that thought it up in the first place charged, tried, and where appropriate imprisoned for what they have done. That starts at the guy with the black hood and goes up the chain to George W. Bush. I want every one of them in prison.

He doesn't want to prosecute the rank and file because he knows that will force the prosecution of the leaders, some are undoubtedly friends of his.
He would throw the Lyndie Englands to the wolves in a minute.

No pardons, more prosecutions.

Holder is proving to be a disappointment.

There can be no truth and reconciliation without the truth part.

that I've read for fact. Am I wrong?

and they didn't keel over and die.

Refusing Nazi orders would have seen you shot, not something US forces faced.

I have no sympathy for "following orders", there is no order you could give a non sadist that would make them partake in a sexual assault none at all.

had to say about Gonzo. :eyes: