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When are we going shoot the people who steal fish and dump toxic waste?

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:29 PM
Original message
When are we going shoot the people who steal fish and dump toxic waste?
After all, those people are engaged in piracy too, aren't they? What makes them so special?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-vazquez/on-pirates_b_186015.html

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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. more piracy rationalization.
I'll say it again -- two wrongs do not make a right.

And why are they attacking ships with humanitarian supplies as opposed to ships dumping toxic waste?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. YOU are rationalizing doing nothing about piracy.
Notice that I didn't argue against shooting the Somali pirates.


I asked why we're not shooting the non-Somali pirates as well.


Well, why aren't we?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
108. perhaps because we haven't faced a situation where someone was
kidnapped and held hostage with a gun pointed at them. You do realize that that's why the pirates were shot, right?
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Right, the Somalis have nothing to complain about!
After all, they have no money & more importantly they're not Americans - they're from Darkest Africa.

:sarcasm:
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. Some of these ships carrying toxic waste could be disguised as 'Aid' ships
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:25 AM by rollingrock
if I were them I probably wouldn't trust any ship that even looked foreign, given the long history of colonialism and exploitation of their country by the western powers.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. We should be shooting the pirates in 3 piece suits who have looted the treasury
and screwed millions of Americans out of jobs, homes, retirement, and health care.

But we should also shoot the pirates who attack these ships.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Line 'em up. No pirates will be spared!
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. It seems that some people are in denial about the toxic dumping, etc
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. Moral Equivalency alert...
When these "eco-warriors" you advocate for stop asking for ransom, killing people, and taking hostages, they would have a lot stronger case to make. As it is, they're nothing more than base criminals.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yes, I believe that white lives and black lives ARE equal in value.
I believe that a Somali child has a right not to be sickened or killed by the chemical or nuclear poisons that wash ashore after storms. I believe that this right is equal to an American ship captain's right not to taken and held for ransom.

I believe this, because I do not view the lives of whites as more valuable than the lives of blacks, or the lives of the affluent as being more valuable than the lives of the poor.

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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. And that makes piracy okay, how???
The response didn't make any sense.

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You tell me -- you're the one who doesn't want to shoot the toxic waste criminals.
Whereas I haven't objected to shooting Somali pirates, I notice that many of you seem remarkably cool to my idea of shooting all the OTHER pirates over there as well.

What gives?

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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. The misplaced lust for vengence blinds some to believe toxic waste doesn't kill people.
That debt doesn't hold them hostage,
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Are you for shooting people dumping toxic waste?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I can't speak for Baldguy, but my answer is an emphatic yes.
We have a right not to be poisoned. Somalis have a right not to be poisoned. The people doing the dumping are the enemies of all mankind, and should be treated as such.


You talk about acts of war... If dumping toxic waste in other people's water isn't an act of war, it'll do until the real thing comes along.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The question was to Baldguy. He isn't a fan of self defense, hence the question.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
107. Gun-worshipers reduce everything to a 2nd Amendment issue.
You're making assumptions about me with no basis in fact. No surprise there.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
115. Answer the question then.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. That's what I thought.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
119. What does toxic waste
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 01:19 PM by Dorian Gray
have to do with this particular kidnapping?

ETA: I've had students who were refugees from Vietnam. When they sailed from Hong Kong to the Phillippines, they were overrun by pirates in the South China Sea. The women were raped, their father was killed, and all their possessions stolen. I think Piracy is NOT about eco-warriorship. It is about stealing things from people to get rich.



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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. The pirates aren't exactly GreenPeace
If the pirates were white, I'd be totally fine with siccing some Navy Seals on them. It's not a racial thing, it's a pirate thing.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. yeah, about that...
"If the pirates were white, I'd be totally fine with siccing some Navy Seals on them. It's not a racial thing, it's a pirate thing."



Yeah, well, some of the pirates ARE white. The people dumping the chemicals along Somalia's coastline are typically organized crime outfits from Europe who get rid of toxic waste for European companies.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html


Why not treat the piracy of the Euro gangs the same way as the piracy of Somali gangs?

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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. I'm fine with shooting them, too
I don't think they're technically pirates, though.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
110. Because they're not

People making such spurious and irrelevant claims here on DU are, however, technically fuckwits.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. I'd say more than technically
This is also a person who thinks that transgenderism is "superstition."
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
109. I'd be interested to see your warped logic (actually, total ABSENCE of logic) on display

had the ship's captain been of African heritage. Would that have made it okay, then?

If the criminals -- yep, that's what they are -- who attacked the ship were Jewish, we'd have the DU wet dream in which it'd be a toss-up whether the knee-jerk morons shouting stridently off-target claims of "Racist! Racist!" or "Anti-Semite!!" would be the louder. If they were black Jewish persons of short stature, basically if the ship were attacked by a determined group of Sammy Davis Jr impersonators, it'd be a DU Perfect Storm. Ah...what could have been...



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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. Sammy Davis Jr impersonators........ in DRAG!
an even more perfect storm.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. This story reminds me of chemtrails.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. The dumping is all too real, unfortunately.
From Spiegel:

In the spring of 2004, fishermen spotted two large containers floating in the water near Bosaso. Whether they were deliberately tossed overboard or accidentally fell of a container ship in rough seas is unclear. The Indian Ocean tsunami in December 2004, which also reached the African coast, unearthed dozens of containers of toxic waste and deposited the waste along the Somali coast. According to a United Nations report, many coastal residents suffered "acute respiratory infections, heavy coughing, bleeding gums and mouth, abdominal haemorrhages, unusual skin rashes, and even death."

Experts and environmentalists have long been aware of the problem. In 2006, a team of specialists sent to the region to investigate discovered nine toxic waste sites along 700 kilometers (435 miles) of coastline in southern Somalia.

The UN envoy to Somalia, Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, said last October that the UN has "reliable information that European and Asian companies are dumping toxic waste, including nuclear waste, off the Somali coastline."



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Awesome Job By The Navy Taking Those Fuckers Out With A Bullet Straight Through Their Heads.
That's all I've got to say.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. When will the Navy shoot the dumpers? That is what I want to know.
I wish they would.


Do you?



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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I believe that would be an Act of War. You want to start another one, bad idea.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Nonsense. If we can shoot black gangsters, we can shoot white gangsters.
Sheesh. It's like some folks think white skin is bulletproof, or should be.


No, I really don't see how shooting European criminals for dumping toxic waste would start a war.


But your concern is duly noted.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Shooting Foreign Nationals for crimes without a trial could be considered an Act of War.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. If we patrol, then we can catch them in the act.
Then we can pick 'em off.

Also, we can seize their vessels, find out where the waste comes from, and start making examples of the guilty.


Bring on the patrols, I say.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. The use of deadly force in that situation would be unlawful by US and International law.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Bull. Anyone who touches the valve, dies.
Anyone who is aiding or abetting a mass poisoning is a deadly enemy, and can be treated as such.


If some criminal is about to contaminate land or water with dangerous chemicals and/or nuclear waste, we have a right to stop him by any means necessary.


We really do not have to sit still and let ourselves and our surroundings be irradiated and poisoned.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. We could arrest them. Why isn't that good enough? How many people do you want to kill?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. How many do you think it'll take?
:shrug:

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Your bloodlust seems pretty strong, you tell me.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. So again what's wrong with arresting them instead of murdering them?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. It's not murder when it's a legitimate act of defense...
Once the purposes of defense have been achieved, the arrests can begin.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Who is in imminent danger from the fisherman?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Somali fishermen have been in danger from the resource-raiders.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. If they pose an immediate threat to someone's life then shoot them, if not arrest them.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #76
84. Who will arrest them? Somalia doesn't have a coast guard.
That's one of the problems.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. The same people you want to shoot them.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #84
92. Puntland has a coast guard, set up & funded by a British "Blackwater"-style private military corp.
Puntland is also the location of one of the two major pirate bases.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
67. So now you are advocating shooting prisoners in our custody. George is that you.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:09 AM by Fire_Medic_Dave
You would have to know it was toxic waste before assessing the threat. So the crew would be in custody while you did an investigation. The Constitution prevents murdering them at that point.

David
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. So take your hand off the valve when ordered to by the Navy.
And if you don't, then you have yourself to blame for whatever happens next.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. You said shoot them, not warn them to stop and shoot them if they don't.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #58
74. So someone tells some handicapped guy to open a bilge valve,he does what he's told and you kill him.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:32 AM by Fire_Medic_Dave
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
75. i believe the act of war = dumping poison in someone else's country &
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:05 AM by Hannah Bell
stealing their resources.

just a thought.

if someone enters your house, takes your stereo & sprays nerve gas, is it an act of war if you shoot them?

no.

if someone was dumping toxic waste in us waters, you can bet they wouldn't be handled with kid gloves.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. So you think we should kill everyone on board?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. so when did you stop beating your wife?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. So you agree with me, they should be arrested and not killed. Thanks.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. no, personally, at this point i think they should be tortured & made to consume toxic waste, thanks.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:26 AM by Hannah Bell
but we both know nothing will *ever* happen to them, & they'll continue doing whatever the hell they want, because the balance of power is on their side.

pirates = blowback for the west's dirty war in the horn of africa.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Maybe we should invade France, they are the likely European nuclear waste dumper.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:39 AM by Fire_Medic_Dave
:sarcasm:

Edit: Sarcasm tag added for the dense.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. oh, there's just one? & you know this how?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. So invading the wrong country is wrong but shooting the wrong guy is ok?
It was a joke.

David
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. didn't say anything about wrong or right, just wanted to know your sources.
but oh, joke.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. Personally I don't think we should torture ANYONE else.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. why not? if it's good enough for "al qaeda," it's good enough for child-killers.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:49 AM by Hannah Bell
http://www.alternet.org/audits/13571...y/?page=entire

As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships
started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into
the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they
suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the
2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on
shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than
300 died.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. Did you approve of Bushes use of torture?
I'm all for having the US Navy patrol the coast and arrest the violators. I think we should abide by International Law.

David
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. he was president & he said it's ok, who am i to argue? let's torture *all* the babykillers.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #104
117. Ok, I understand, you approve of torture, thanks for clearing it up.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Economic terrorism.
Much worse than piracy. That's why such actions in war are called war crimes. Poisoning the environment and source of food. Destroying their boats. Stealing their food and means of survival. Terrorists.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. ZOMG, this is heresy you speak!
No, no -- you've got it all wrong. White makes right! Rich people are entitled to anything they can grab! It's not a crime unless it happens to People Like Us! Third World people are basically a different species -- no moral equivalence allowed!


:sarcasm:

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. The death penalty doesn't apply to those crimes.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Sure it does! Poisoning people is murder.
You did not know that?

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. They have a right to a trial. You do know that, right?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Not if we catch them in the act of dumping.
We can stop an illegal dumping of hazardous waste by any means necessary, including sniping the crew of one of these First-World pirate vessels, should it come to that.


Why are you so resistant to the idea of doing this? It would help to bring the situation under control.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Because it is a violation of US and International Law. You did vote for change didn't you?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Which law?
Spell it out, please.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. The Constitution will do.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #46
55. Nothing in the Constitution disallows the use of force...
... in such a situation as I referred to.


Try again.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. You fail. Try the 4th, 6th and 8th Amendment's they all apply.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. None of those would prevent us from shooting someone who was about to...
... open a valve and send forth a flood of deadly substances.


We have every right to STOP people who do things like that -- not just sit back, and twiddle our thumbs until they're finished spewing poisons, and then prosecute them after the fact.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. How would you know the substance was a deadly one?
If the government had evidence of such they would just take the boat and take the crew into custody, instead of murdering some poor schmuck who was told the valve was a bilge valve.

David
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #70
82. How do you know whether the guy in the ski mask is holding a real gun?
Even without 100% certainty, there can be enough grounds for suspicion to justify taking decisive action.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. Pointing a weapon at someone is an immediate threat, deadly force is justified.
Shooting someone who is about to open a valve that might release what you suspect to be a possibly hazardous material is not the way things are done. Anyone who did this would be Court Martialed.

David
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #46
63. The Constitution doesn't apply in Somalia. Or to terrorists. Bush told me so.
People dumping nuclear waste are terrorists, aren't they?

Bet you'd think so if they dumped it in *your* kids' food supply.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #63
71. They should be arrested not murdered.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You want to shoot fisherman also, don't forget about that.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. You have a touching concern for armed robbers.
Because when they invade Somali fishing grounds, attack Somali fishing boats, and grab Somali resources, that's what they really are.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I'm fond of the Constitution and it's protections, sorry you hold it in such disdain.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #47
106. Somalia *isn't* the US, why do you keep insisting the US Constitution is the law there?
Somalians can do what they like to people who violate their territorial waters to do illegal, murderous deeds.

Americans' regard for the "constitution" is pretty much a joke since they twice voted in the guy who tore it up by running gulags all over the world, kidnapped foreign nationals in foreign countries, jailed people indefinitely without trial or access to attorneys, without notifying families, to be tortured & murdered.


And then prosecuted a few peons & swept the rest under the rug.

If you care so much for the "constitution" why aren't you down in DC demanding Bush be jailed?

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #106
116. The poster wanted the US Navy to shoot foreign nationals for illegal dumping.
The US Navy is bound by many rules including the Constitution. Forgive me for not taking your criticisms seriously, given your comments on torture I don't know how anyone could.

David
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
52. Catch them in the act?
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 12:36 AM by Vanje
Hell why wait!
Shoot em before they dump.
Just bob along in the open ocean and shoot everyone who looks like they might steal a fish.



(Insert sarcasm smilie here for the slow of thinking)
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Unless you catch them in the act. Then you get to act as executioner!
Isn't that how it goes?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. If they are posing an imminent deadly threat then deadly force is required.
Since that's not the case here. They should be arrested and tried. Not summarily executed. You agree with me right?

David
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Isn't it kinda dumb to steal fish from same place you dump toxic waste? n/t
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Who said criminals were the smartest lot?
The dumpers and the resource-raiders generally seem to be different people, tho.

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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Check a map one day. Somalia has a 3300 km coastline.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. And no currents? Check n/t
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. If you dumped toxic waste off Maine, would you stop fishing in Florida?
In any case, no one is saying the fishermen and toxic waste dumpers are one and the same, so the fishing fleets may know nothing about it. Or care.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
64. coastline of somalia is as long as the US eastern seaboard.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 12:53 AM by Hannah Bell
it's not a swimming pool.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
51. You first.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Don't you think this is a job for the professionals?
How about the Navy? They seem professional.

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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
54. Are they doing it in our waters?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Aren't all nations empowered to enforce maritime law?
:shrug:

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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Were captain Philips and his crew dumping toxic waste in Somalian waters?
:shrug:
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Phillips & crew didn't, but other people certainly have.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. And that made it ok for the Phillips and crew to be taken hostage?
And threatened at gun point?

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. You seem to be trying to justify poisoning Somalis with toxic waste.
Remember: I'm the one who is for taking action against ALL the pirates -- both the Somali pirates, and the non-Somali pirates.

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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. I fail to see why we are responsible for the toxic waste dump in Somalian waters
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
112. I beleive that the pirates came to an end while the good captain was osmoregulating over the side

Obviously, Captain Phillips was in violation of international treaties related to water quality, the capitalist swine, and deserved to be terminated with extreme prejudice. But you could tell that a priori, merely by looking at his skin color -- racial profiling does have its uses, it seems.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #56
90. Does that Maritime Law allow execution for illegal dumping?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
102. You are verging on US "should police the world" language. Strike that, that's exactly what you're...
...saying. If that's what you think the US should do. I suppose you supported the Iraq war.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
65. Probably the same time they start violently taking over ships and taking hostages.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 12:54 AM by LostInAnomie
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. Poisoning people is violence.
Don't you agree?

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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #68
87. Ah, I love moral equivalency games...
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 01:17 AM by LostInAnomie
... especially when they compare the most facile connections.

These pirates weren't killed because of social inequality. Really, they weren't even killed because of their previous actions. What they were killed for was their immediate danger to the Captain. The SEALS were given a choice. They could either take the shot, or they could let an innocent man die. The overall choice had nothing to do with economic or social circumstances, but the immediacy of the action.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
77. Wouldn't it be easier if the Somali pirates shot the poachers and dumpers?
Or are they too busy stealing from completely-uninvolved passers-by? :shrug:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. according to the un security council, that's basically how they got started.
not shooting them, but extracting fees from the ships they hijacked.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #80
103. I call BS on that one, though.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
99. One banana, two banana, three banana, four
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
101. When those guys running around attacking other ships form a government to patrol their waters.
To take these things to the UN, to make sure that their waters are not overfished.

But since the pirates are against any kind of government that isn't ruled by clans of uncivilized bastards...
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
105. To answer the question in your OP..
Never..

Those stealing fish and dumping toxic chemicals are wealthy, or work for the wealthy.

There are two sets of laws, those for the powerless and poor and those for the wealthy and powerful.

Those two sets of laws rarely have anything to do with each other.

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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
113. DId I miss the fact that these people are kidnapping and murdering people for ransom?
If they start holding mass numbers of people hostage at gunpoint demanding millions in ransom it would be easier to justify force to save the victims they are jamming a AK47 in their back.
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