Small farms as a solution to joblessness?

From the Wall Street Journal:



I think this is an intruiging solution and one that might work in the US: create an "apprentice farmer" program where men and women can learn the skills necessary to run a productive, mostly self-sufficient small farm then allow graduates of this program to buy or lease arable land to work, with provisions that will prevent (or at least minimize) the buying-up of this land by the agricultural conglomerates that have all but wiped out small farms in this country.

Thoughts?

(Edited for formatting)

But most of our unemployed are scattered all over the country. Small towns and rural areas included or so it seems.

At least in my experience. Also the pay is pretty shitty. It is a lifestyle that has many pluses but there is a reason peo[le all over the world flee the land for cash jobs in the big city. Yes a big reason is big corporate ag, but the shear amount of physical work and the poverty are probably a bigger reason.

At least poverty on a farm allows you to eat. And if we could eliminate the subsidies to agribusiness and restore the funding to its original purpose -- small family farms -- while encouraging sustainable crops (ie NOT corn, soybeans and wheat), maybe this could work. It certainly seems a better alternative to food stamps, unemployment insurance and charity soup kitchesn.

Don't forget nature is in this equation. Farms don't always produce. The urban concentration allows import from differing areas of production and the population/economy to get those supplies. 3 or 4 farms in the middle of nowhere that got no rain that year are pretty much SOL. Begging on the streets of a city may get you fed before the next rain.

Although subsidies and disaster relief re-allocated to smaller farms would help, for sure!

people hate illegal immigrants

well, the solution lies in part in stopping our obscene subsidies to ag bizz

so peasants can stay on the land

same in India and all over

the push to industrial/capitalist agriculture is insane

of course, some of this requires land redistribution....

and advocates for this can get shot

Why not keep in shape by pumping a shovel handle?

Ya gotta wonder...

most of the people who go to gyms are already employed- that's how they can afford it.

and then never go anyway. geez I can give you a chance to sweat and have sore muscles. And a tan too!

Both had a gym membership that they actually used daily (not typical!). Hiked, or so they said:) We are older than them by 15 years.

They were lagging after day one, and each night they went to bed earlier, starting at 10pm, ending the stay in bed by 8pm. All we did was hike miles here and ride horses miles here, run some atvs, and repeat each day. As hosts, we went out and did all that with them, plus the all heavy lifting of cooking, cleaning, cleaning the horse paddocks, tuning/gassing the atvs, brushing out and cooling out the horses, etc. Then we'd go watch some tv while they fell asleep in their chairs.

They were laughingly puzzled too - I mean they were a fairly fit couple, but not fit in a ranch useful way. My girlfriend said that if she'd had to add the ranch chores on top of what they did, she wouldn't have had the stamina, and was kind of shocked/peeved then resigned to the fact that we older folks were doing all the hours of the fun stuff, plus the work, and still tucking them into bed hours before we went to sleep. It was kind of funny, once they got used to being outpaced:)

Love them, but I'd never seriously ask them to work hard and play hard here on a monthly basis - it would kill them physically and spiritually. And I still can't believe I can say that about a young couple! Great people, but on a light duty sort of life program that is nicely varied and interesting, so long as it is done in a city with readily available conveniences.

Some can do it, absolutely. Others can't even if they want to, and some don't ever want to try.

It's more like get up while it's still dark, work until dark, collapse in exhaustion. Repeat the next day, adding massive pain. It's much, much, much more work than "working out." If you're lucky, you may get to rest on Sundays. But it's more likely that you'll be running around fixing everything that broke during the week. Believe me, if you have livestock much will be damaged during the week.

The family farmers next door to me are a case in point. I learned that talking to them is not unlike talking to "Daryl and my other brother Daryl" when I found their 2 cows and bull roaming my horse's pasture one afternoon. They get up at 2am to start farm chores. They are done the morning feeding and cleaning by 6am, when the rest of the world is just starting to get up. Then they'll go re-roof a barn or do some "light work" like that. They work like that all day, every day except Sunday -- from 2am until dark. Wives fix dinner and then they collapse in front of the teevee before falling asleep. (I know they watch teevee because Mrs. Daryl entertained me while the brothers Daryl chased their cows and bull around my pasture with a bucket of grain and a rope. She explained how one night they were watching teevee and felt like they were being watched. When they looked up they saw a moose looking back at them with his faced pressed to the living room window. I sincerely wish I'd had a videocam running at the time because without a doubt I would have won America's funniest home video).

Anyway, if you buy machinery to help reduce the workload and increase the yield, then you've got to take on massive debt and you'd better be able to keep the machinery in good repair yourself.

Anything and everything you have to "hire out" is another opportunity for someone to totally destroy your life. Just remember that much of rural America is *Freeperville.* A contracter with big machines can do signficant damage to your plans while they scheme to keep you paying them cash. They really don't care if they put you out of business while they're turning a $50 job into $500, or a $1,0000 job into $5,000. And you'd better pay up because once their machines are parked on your property, the other contractors won't touch you. And if you throw them off your property without paying, then before you can blink, the entire community of contractors will know that you're a deadbeat and still won't touch you.

I can see where it might work in a civilized society, such as Japan. But we're not talking about Japan. We're talking about the U.S., where your next door neighbor would rob you blind as soon as look at you, and the police will look the other way or cite *you* if you yell "help" too loudly and disturb their peace.

I can't argue with your post. We never had to work quite as hard as your neighbors, but that was due to the fact that my dad has 7 brothers and their wives, along with Grandma on the original family farm, all running their own farms within a 10-mile radius. They helped each other out when things were tough, so that no one man or woman was overwhelmed by it all. If someone didn't have a large, solid family base in the community they were farming in, I couldn't see how they could survive for long.

Oh, and I can relate with what you wrote regarding hired help being brought in. When I was a kid, my dad hired a guy to clear a couple acres of brush for him while we went on a long-overdue weekend vacation. When we came home, that bastard had not only cleared the brush, but had taken a chainsaw to 5 acres of old-growth oak and maple woods!!! Then, he demanded my dad pay him for his labor! The only thing that saved that bastard's life was that my dad used to be friends with him in high school.

:)

necessarily "flee" farms, they were pushed off by debt, drought, taxes, mechanization & increasing costs. As well as though land thefts & rural clearances.

Quite deliberately in some episodes.

Our biggest expense (as a small farmer) is our mortgage. We got a very good deal from friends who financed the purchase for us for the first 3 years - a damn lucky break that virtually noone else will be able to find in this economy. Real estate, even in a depressed market, is exorbitantly expensive TO FARM. You have to make sure every acre is paying for itself.

We buy/sell/train sport horses and we grow organic vegetables for my sister's restaurant and a small farmstand. We're making it but we're not rich by any means. I personally have not had a day off since August 2008. It's been more 9 years since I've had 2 consecutive days off in a row. Anyone thinking of farming better consider whether they ever want to travel, or even take extended "breaks". It's 26/7 as my husband and I joke (sorta). We're expanding the organic vegetable operation this year because we fear the economy will make inroads into the expensive sport horse market. That will be even more backbreaking, time consuming labor this year.

And truly, the amount of labor is staggering each day. We're fit and have been doing this daily but we go through a lot of painkillers at ages 47 (me) and 51 (him). And farming is quite a dangerous occupation - one of the most dangerous out there. We've been doing this for a long, long time and accidents happen. We can minimize them but for a novice farmer, especially an unfit older farmer... well, I'd be concerned.

I'd love to see more small family farms. I wish it were feasible but it's a tough career choice for someone to make late in the game: city-bred, overweight, untrained and unskilled, and without a lot of financial capital to get started.

I don't have the patience but some friends of mine use wwoofers several months of the yeear - last time we were there they had 6 people staying there working.

http://www.wwoof.org/

I once turned to my husband and said, "It could be worse. We could be farmers." At least we were closed Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Years.

I have to think the ratio of city dwellers versus the available land for farming creates a bit of a problem there.

Or maybe I am just insane.

The whole country isn't Tokyo. And there is more than one island even!

population.)

Japan was 100% self-sufficient in rice until WTO rules forced it to import a certain percent. There were paddies even inside Osaka City limits.

Depopulation of the countryside has been one of the recent "worries".

And all this for a mere $11,111.11 per person to train them?

Do you realize how poor most rural areas are?

Do you realize how bad many rural schools are? Would you want to send your kid there?

Do you realize how sparse access to medical care is in most rural areas - even with health insurance? Would you be willing to drive an hour one way to see a general practicioner or get emergency care? Further for a specialist?

Do you realize the cultural, entertainment, technology and shopping limitations in rural areas? Are you willing to have your social activities revolve largely around the church? Are you willing to drive for hours to go to an art museum? Can you do without cable tv? Are you willing to use dial up or satellite internet? Are you willing to tolerate and accept consistently spotty cell phone service? Are you willing to drive one hour each way to find fast food, a movie theatre, a grocer other than Wal-Mart, a shopping mall, an upscale resturant?

Do you know how much tractors and farm implements cost? Do you know what is involved in their maintenance and repair? Or how much fuel they require? And how much it costs?

Do you understand that farmers need a processng and distribution system to sell the product of their efforts?

Do you understand the scale required to provide a living wage - and meet the debt obligations incured to own and operate the farm? What is the profit margin on the sale of a cow or an egg or a bushel of corn?

Do you know how much land is required to support a single cow? Or a large flock of chickens that produce commercial eggs? Or a bushel of corn?

Do you realize that being successful on a farm requires knowledge, skill, physical ability and a willingness to work long and often unpredictable hours? Or do you think just anybody can be successful in such an endeavor without training?

Do you realize just how easily it is for a farmer to fail in his efforts through no fault of his own (e.g., weather, animal health and behavior)?

Do you realize that most rural areas do not have many (if any) employment opportunities available to supplement farm income?

Are you willing to work in an industry where enviromental and animal activists are likely to criticize and condemn your best most responsible efforts?



I grew up on a working farm/ranch. I continue to know folks who earn their livlihood in agriculture living and working on small farms in rural areas. It is a very difficult life requiring considerable sacrifice. I've seen several folks who did not have the background knowledge or the necessary skills make the effort to farm. None were successful. I personally would love to leave the city far far far behind and return to live and work in a rural area. But I cannot figure out how to earn a living in such an area.

I'm damn lucky in that I'm 45 minutes from Chicago (Kane Co. IL). We purchased our place 20 years ago when this area was still considered the impossible boonies.

Development has come right up to our eastern back fence line and then it's completely open farm fields due west of me (literally, I can see the housing development out my back window, and farmfields out the front).

I shudder to think how many people might sink the rest of their life savings into... farm training programs? Thinking they may get into this area.... The costs are shocking and if you don't have the time to "grow" into your operation I can't see how it's possible to make it work unless you have 5 or more years of savings to tide you over until you MIGHT make a profit.

My smallest tractor - the 25hp John Deere loader that's basically my lawn mower - cost more than $25k. Your post is spot on and says it much better than mine.

Please, stay in the city. Seriously. We "back to the land"ers would appreciate it.

Those of us who have farms appreciate the fact that you won't come try and take over our land.

Those of us who live rural and have a garden and chickens appreciate your staying away.

Trying to have a big farm is difficult, but many of us have small ones, and yes, agriculture can use people working in it that want to.

you are not familiar with the rural remote farming areas that I am. Some of those areas have poverty rates that exceed those of the Appalachians.

I probably know more about farming and ranching - and have more relevant skills - than you ever will. I grew up on a fairly large (about 700 acres) working farm/ranch - not on some small little just outside of suburbia hobby farm with easy access to modern amenities and technology. The farm I grew up on easily supported five families as recently as a decade ago - and it financed my years of private education. From that farm, it was nearly 30 miles each way to the nearest small little town (population less than 10,000) and to my small school. I was a senior in high school before I saw a movie in a movie theater. There simply wasn't a theater that was remotely convenient. I worked in a chicken house picking up eggs before I ever enrolled in school. I could drive a tractor at the age of seven and a column shift manual transmission truck at the age of eight. I was expected to work in the large (nearly 2 acre) family garden from the age of six. I was also expected to help prepare and preserve that harvest. I raked and hauled hay every summer. I milked cows. I could help birth calves before I reached puberty. I've de-horned and castrated cattle - and treated them for a variety of maladies (ever give a cow a shot in her milk producing udder? can you recognize the symptoms of black leg or newcastle disease? know how to eradicate those diseases?). I can pluck and dress a chicken - and I know how to dress and preserve (salted and or smoked) beef and pork and other game. The farm on which I was raised produced hatchery eggs and we had about sixty thousand chickens - each of whom laid an egg everyday. And we had a herd of several hundred beef cattle. And a dairy herd.

I can take you to places today in Northeast Texas where it is a one hour drive to the nearest shopping and routine medical care - and a trip to a medical specialist requires another couple of hours travel to Shreveport. I have an extended family member that makes that trip once a month. I can take you to some other places just like that in Arkansas and Missouri and Kansas and Oklahoma and Louisiana. I can take you to a rural home where cell phone reception requires going a quarter of a mile down the road (and that has been tested with multiple carriers). These places won't cease to exist and the conditions there won't change just because you are unfamiliar with them. Why don't you go explore some of the poor remote rural areas of our country? You might discover a whole new world. Of course, you are an outsider and some folks just might not take too kindly to you poking around. Stick your nose in the wrong place (can you say neo-Nazi survivalist enclaves?) and you just might get shot.

I am the only person in my family who has not made my livelihood on a farm. My siblings farm, as did my parents, as did their parents - and their parents before them and so on. We have farm land that has been in the family since 1812. Maybe it's your kind that we should be worried about taking over our land.

I find it laughable that you think a small acreage with a large garden and some chickens constitute a farm. That's a hobby. It won't provide a livelihood and support and educate a family - and provide your retirement. Matter of fact I'm guessing it requires a real job doing something else with a more predictable income to underwrite the expenses. And I'm guessing it isn't located anywhere near any farm operations of significant size. I'm guessing you couldn't tolerate the pervasive odor of chicken litter, cow manure, and hog farms 24/7.

I am well aware of the harsh conditions and brutal economics of rural America. I welcome anyone into rural America who might possibly be able to help improve the quality of life for those there.

And your little hobby farm? Build a fence around it and put a gate in front of it. Create your own little gated community. You've already got the attitude down.

was about small farms and so I replied according to that, not about Large farms.

I grew up in ND in town, but came from farming background, friends, family. I don't want to get into a "farmier than thou" contest with you as that would be unproductive and I really don't care. I understand what constitutes a large farm, and what has happened with mega-farms across the USA.

That said, the OP was about small farms, and that is why I said what I did. I am sorry that you are condescending about my large garden and chickens as they do save me a lot of money and gas, and I don't have to support The Meat Industry, or large non-organic fields of crops.

I also am sorry that my rural area is not poor enough for you, that our schools are too good for what you think they should be. Yes, I know and have lived in abysmally poor rural areas, helping provide health care, so yes, I do know how it can be. I just want to point out that there are rural areas where it isn't that awful.

I do hope that more people plant even small gardens as it will help not only provide food but let people participate more actively in their food, and that those of us who chose to have some property and larger gardens are understood to be doing what we can also. I do not intend to give up nursing to spend all my time growing food, but have found a way to combine the 2 in a positive way.

is about training unemployed workers to earn a ***livelihood*** on a farm. Having some chickens and a large garden will not provide a livelihood. It might be a good hobby to supplement another primary source of income - much like your "farm". Nothing wrong with that - but you need to recognize the distinction.

Most Americans are not suited to earn their livelihood on a farm. We want our creature comforts. We want to be easily entertained. We expect to earn enough money to maintain a comfortable middle class lifestyle. We want our kids to have access to the best possible opportunities. We expect the places we need to go to be reasonably convenient. We don't like long unpredictable hours. We don't like dangerous, dirty, smelly work. It's beneath us. Many defend and justify the presence of illegal immigrant workers because they believe Americans are unwilling to do just such work.

Someone who wants to earn their livelihood on the farm is most likely going to end up in one of those terribly poor remote rural areas. Why? Because they are going to need a pretty sizable chunk of real estate. That can be pretty pricey even in the poorest areas. Lenders are going to analyze financing based on the potential return - and that potential is much higher in poorer areas where real estate is cheaper. Many of those lenders will refuse loans for agricultural land use in the more prosperous areas. And don't forget the cost of equipment that is often included in those loans. A good tractor can cost more than the farmhouse. I even know one farmer that has a single piece of ***USED*** equipment that cost over a half million dollars.

As for the insult, get over it. You were the first to suggest that other folks were not welcome in the area around your little hobby farm. I suspect you needn't concern yourself with the real farmers who earn their livelihood off the land. They will find their opportunity in some of the poorest most sparsely populated areas of our nation.

Having come from farming background (grandparents), friends, family still there, I agree that it is difficult to earn your total livelihood on a farm. I still am sorry you look down your nose at those of us who are augmenting our food rather than earning all our money farming, as that seems the most workable thing for most of us. I'm happy raising half my food on my "hobby farm" and am glad to be able to do this.

Good luck to you.


Edited to add, have you been following the flooding across eastern ND? Many of the rivers are flooding, lots of rural farms and small communities are flooding since the area is the bottom of an old lakebed and a little water spreads a long ways. Fargo gets the major news coverage, but there are lots of rural areas, farms, communities, people hurting there now. Just in case you hadn't heard, since you seem concerned about farming people.

that people like you are willing to produce many of their own foodstuffs. It is very rewarding. I wish everyone had the capability of doing so. We'd all have better, tastier, higher quality food if we did.

I do however think it is foolish to confuse such supplemental efforts with the prospects of farming to earn a livlihood - the subject of the OP. They are two very different things.





I have a friend who has family in rural Iowa that have been impacted by the flooding - though they have fared considerably better than what I have heard reported about the Fargo area.




Peace.

in your family's story.

is not in the state of Texas. Though it is in one of the surrounding states.

Your previous point was about how untenable the rural life that "financed your years of private education" is.

Don't prejudge how hard others are willing to work. You aren't as unique as you think.

Your point about the expenses is good however. The capital costs required for a farm of even hobby scale can't be justified by the income which it can produce.

Food independence on small acreages are a more attainable and worthy goal than "farming".

I recommend "The self-sufficient life and how to live it" by John Seymour.

Cost can be a factor, balancing out what you need to start, even on a small scale (not to mention large scale) with what you will make in the near future. I'd like to see more people more closely involved with their food, seems would make one more aware of their impact on the planet. Thank you for your post

between working a farm that provides a sustainable livlihood and being food independent on a small acreage. Funding that education is one of those differences and that was my point.

I know many people that work in agriculture that work far harder than I ever have or likely ever will. One is a young fellow that works 14 to 16 hours a day 7 days a week 18 months at a time. He is an organic, cage free, free range egg producer. I worked his operation for a week last fall when a family member died in order to permit he and his family to travel to the funeral. I could not do what he does.

Unless you find corporate conglomerate farms desirable then there are reasons to make it feasible for those who have the interest, the desire and the skills to farm. Need a reason to be suspicious of conglomerate farms? It is not uncommon for them to feed chicken litter to the cattle that end up in your butcher shelf.

in containers, in cities, etc. Japan can do it. and they better as the oceans have less and less things for humans to eat.

agriculture is not the emphasis.

Is mass transit to cities from rural areas. Incoming trains to the cities carry office workers and outbound carries farm labor to the fields.

Mass transit is not just for people. Into the cities go construction supplies, farm goods and biofuels. Out from the cities go finished goods, retail items and whatever else concentrated masses of people can best produce.

and vice versa, any way i dont want no city folk on my land, and i got guns to stop them.

All great big corporate operations.

How will the large landowners be coerced into "giving up" their land to the small farmers?

We are not Venezuela, where land is given "back" to "the people"..

People living in urban areas have little hope of being able to ever "groe their own food"..:(

Totally different from the "you're on your own" mindset here.

just don't see the numbers working out.

it's probably just a trick to lure people into the fema internment camps...:crazy:

when it had a smaller population. I'm sure yields per acre have increased since the pre-WWII era, but this still sounds like a lot of investment for little return. Starting a self-sufficient farm from scratch with an untrained farmer would be highly capital intensive I'm sure. I'd bet it would be a lot easier to just try and find those people jobs with R&D and other such operations where Japan already has loads of investment capital.

Post-war they've mostly been at or near self-sufficient. Government policy has a lot to do with that. The main reason they aren't now is that importing a certain percent was a requirement for entry into various international trade orgs.

Rice is as labor intensive as input/capital-intensive, & one of the problems in Japan has been depopulation of the countryside for relatively higher wages in the cities.

playing in the dirt is good for everybody...

I have a small farm in MI if anybody wants to work hard for no pay, but all the veggies you can eat...

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-10/2007-10-30-voa29.cfm

http://www.backdoorjobs.com/farming.html

http://attra.ncat.org/

http://www.nofa.org/exchange/index.php

Just a few of the opportunities for people...

There are already agricultural programs in a lot of Universities. I'll admit I don't know shit from shinola on the subject (other than an excruciating day I spent with some Mixe in Oaxaca planting a field of corn the old fashioned way, with a bag of seed and a sapling sharpened into a spear with a machete)... so I don't know if the "apprentice farmer" idea is... more practical and less theoretical than the Ag programs... but it seems to me that maybe some sort of synthesis might be considered.
Set up an info center to allow farmers who want "apprentices" to register.
Coordinate these farmers with Ag students. Allow some "internship" credits for "apprenticing".
Perhaps the Ag students will develop enough appreciation of the small farming life that they'll steer away from the factory farms? Or maybe they'll know for damn certain that they want no part of the rural life (The Velvet Underground song "Train Coming Round the Bend" always reminds me of that rural Mexican village I was in for several months... before they installed any phones...)- and they'll run to the Factory Farms, and be happier for it.

Of course, unless these "interns" become such close friends of the families that they intern for that they're invited back after graduation (or they drop out)... some sort of subsidization plan would probably be necessary to help them purchase some land...

But, like I said... I don't know shit about it.

:shrug: ... and we got the "Killing Fields."

Most small farms worth more than the limit for inheritance tax could be taken over when the families that
inherit it can't pay the inheritance tax. Instead of a tax sale, the feds could hire the unemployed from big cities
to run the now government owned farm. We could turn all the red states blue once we infiltrate them with enough blue
city voters.

And since the labor is free (pay the workers with tax income), they could give the food away and attract even more
blue voters.

might propose.

For one thing, the idea that family farms are lost to the inheritance tax is a standard right wing anti-tax canard that has no basis in reality.

I will generously give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your post was satire.

sw

Because $1 million is the current inheritance tax limit as it stands.

My dad's small farm (120 acres) in central MN was valued last year (during the peak of the grain commodities frenzy) at slightly over $500,000. The land here is flat, the soil is deep and black, and the summers long and warm enough to grow plentiful harvests.

I have 6 uncles who also farm, some with as much as 300 acres of land, and NONE of them have farms valued over $1 million. Besides that, I don't consider my Uncle Bob's 300-acre farm as a "small" farm.

For further evidence, see: http://www.factcheck.org/article328.html

If your goal was to appear to be a caricature of a Maoist-leaning "liberal," then consider it achieved.

Smells like the underside of a bridge to me.

Confiscating farms and handing them to noobs sounds like Zimbabwe. How's that working out for them?

Your proposal is revolting, impractical, and would give Democrats a deservedly bad name if we went anywhere near embracing it.

-app

I strongly suspect that the "giving Democrats a bad name" part is precisely why this person posted such a revolting proposal.

sw

Scarletwoman,

You are absolutely right. I got fooled by a troll!

-app

I've been here 8 years -- one develops a fairly sensitive sense of smell after all that time. :)

sw

Japan has both a tradition of micro-farming as well as a farmer's lobby which maximizes crop prices, and is strongly protectionist.

Excluding the cost to purchase the land, you might be able to make a living on small acreage in Japan, but probably not here.

it's also tied to the topic of agrarian reform.....

and gets folks killed

but preserving small farmers is so important

and small farmers in Mexico, eg, are being forced off land due to our huge ag biz subsidies

I would not see the proble with making people who have those highpaying easy jobs do it though so someone else can have a turn in the ivory towers living the good life for a change.

Leave it to the pros.