If what we did was no worse than college hazing

My question would be why? We were supposedly trying to get information that would protect Americans. Why would our best course of action be some simple college hazing practices? Are we that stupid that we would think college hazing would cause the breakdown of the worst elements on the planet? Does Rush Limbaugh even make sense to himself?

In fact only yesterday he was slapping himself to show how ineffective our techniques actually were.

...phony war$

They didn't want the truth; they just wanted confessions they could use for show trials. I suspect that's what Cheney really wanted, too.

...which tends to happen if you invade, kill scores of civilians, occupy, and begin rounding up people at random to be tortured in prisons.

Funny, but I don't recall hanging someone by handcuffs for eleven days was part of our hazing regimen? I wonder why we didn't do such fun stuff back then? Oh, yeah, if we did stuff like that we'd all still be in prison for it!

-90% Jimmy

doesn't even come close. Not even in the same ballpark. The stuff I endured during hazing was annoying -- or goofy. At no point whatsoever did I fear for my safety.

Even making the comparison is intellectually dishonest, at best, IMO.

we didn't have to do anything anywhere near that gross.

There's been quite a few high profile cases I recall in the news that are absolutely horrifying - unbridled, sadistic enthusiasm in celebration of social pecking order, uniformity and hierarchy.

First, college hazing laws have changed a lot since he was anything near college age. True, they differ depending on the campus, but most campuses have made what were once common hazing pranks subject to disciplinary action--because they were resulting in dead pledges. Forced ingestion of alcohol and pretty much everything else (even water; after all, water poisoning happens) is out. Pledge "ditches" (leaving them naked and alone outdoors in unfamiliar places far from civilization and expecting them to make their way back to the frat house on their own) are out. Paddling is out. Subjecting them to excessive heat, cold, sleep deprivation, etc., is out. In other words, physical torture that might result in pledge injury/death is out.

Just about all frats and sororities can legally do to their pledges anymore on most campuses is force them to do stuff that may make them look kind of silly or foolish, but which doesn't cause extreme humiliation and is not mean-spirited, nasty or dangerous, and tell them they won't be accepted if they can't do it correctly. And oftentimes it has something to do with maintaining the history and traditions of the group. For example, make the pledges memorize trivia about the history of the group and then send members out to find them while they're in the middle of changing classes, lunch, etc., stop them in their tracks and quiz them on the trivia, whereupon they must recite the answers to whatever they're quizzed on in public before being permitted to move on. Or you will see the black fraternities forcing their pledges to dress alike in long dark coats, march in single file wherever they go with one hand on the shoulder of the person ahead of them, do a little step or spin before changing direction or entering a door, etc.

The other thing Rush fails to acknowledge is that as bad as hazing has been historically, the people who subjected themselves to it at least CHOSE the situation they were in to some extent, by choosing to attempt admission into a group. They may not have bargained for being put in life-threatening situations nor should they have been, but at least they knew that they were going to face unpleasant situations with the ultimate goal of becoming a member of a group to which they wanted to belong. No one forced them to pledge against their will.

There is simply no comparison between the torture of unwilling prisoners (who stand to gain nothing from surviving the torture other than an end to the torture and the continuation of their lives) and the hazing, however life-threatening, of fraternity/sorority pledges (who stand to gain membership in the group if they survive).

Ha...no

If Skull & Bones doesn't like it, then we should seize Geronimo's remains and shut them down.