If Obama is not going to prosecute covert operatives, he should pardon soldiers...

No one will ever be able to convince me that the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not manipulated into carrying out the acts that they did. I believe they were manipulated in many ways to carry out acts they would not have committed otherwise. When it is all said and done, I am certain some shadowy people kept telling these soldiers what they wanted them to do was just, patriotic and needed to be done.


And if Obama is not going to prosecute covert operatives for doing what they were told to do, he should pardon these soldiers and do it quickly. But I feel he will not because the are "mere" soldiers.


But think about the disgusting hypocrisy in all of this: the most easily manipulated and directed group of people have been held accountable while those doing the manipulation have been left alone, or are being led to believe they are going to be left along.


But probably the most disgusting thing about all of this beyond the torturing and killing is that from the start, these soldiers were forgotten for nothing more than politics and this is certain because if the Bushies had given these soldiers the same immunity as the covert operatives, then it would have to have been revealed much sooner all of this shit had been pre-approved. And that would have ruined their endgame.

take the fall for the bad choices that they've made.

It's disgusting.

decree? How many wars would be waged in this day and age if the leaders who choose war had to lead the charge?

it is disgusting.

They said England and Grainer should have refused to follow what were clearly illegal orders and should be severely punished for carrying out those supposedly illegal orders.

Wonder if those of us who could see at the time that low-ranking soldiers were being used to deflect responsibility from the whitehouse will get to have an I-told-you-so thread.

I knew they were being manipulated. Very early on some wonderful writers very knowledgeable about the Middle East deciphered what was going on and it was clear, these soldiers were told what to do and how to do it.


People should also read the many interviews of Errol Morris (he did a documentary on this and how images are always biased) and touches on how these people were led to doing many things they did.

But here is what gets me about all this: how is it that people can doubt these soldiers were not told by CIA interrogators that what they were wanting them do to WAS not illegal? Yes, following orders a soldier knows to be unlawful is not an affirmative defense, but people back here in the states need to try and put themselves in the shoes of these soldiers who did the things with dog leases, simulated masturbation and stress positions.

Certainly, I am not suggesting soldiers be pardoned for acts of murder and rape. But the things these soldiers were manipulated into doing by being told they were not illegal.

Busy undergrad at the time and didn't follow it very closely. I remember it seemed fishy that the only people charged were pretty low on the totem pole - they were taking so many pictures it was kind of hard to believe someone way higher up didn't know. But I didn't think they were manipulated at the time.

the sadistic little fucks should not be pardoned. period. And yes, prosecutions should go all the way up the food chain.

people could put themselves in the shoes of many of these people for a moment and try to understand how this happened.


Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not defending some person that took glee in stomping some guy to death or actually killing someone.

But people like Lyndie England were manipulated into what she did by some very persuasive people. No one will EVER be able to convince me that these soldiers came up with these acts on their own. And from the start of this entire mess, the Bush Administration described our enemies as less than animals.

So imagine being sent over there, told by people not only what you were doing was legal, but that it was for the service of your country. Many of these manipulated people were uneducated and taken advantage of.

Soldiers are encouraged not to follow unlawful orders but there still is definately power of leadership to influence things so I'm with you on your point. However it is no secret soldiers are allowed to disobey unlawful orders.

on edit: It was a soldier from that unit that blew the whistle on the whole thing so he atleast knew it was wrong.

but consider too that no organization looks kindly on a whistle-blower, and that is a Brazilian times truer in the military.

We're all compromised to a point in any institution we belong too.

full honorable discharges and a fat check.

They were scapegoated from the start.

they weren't remotely innocent. And the enjoyment they displayed is sick shit.

Just curious.

In some ways, people here need to be a little more empathetic to toward these people. Because some heavy shit went down on them and it's not always easy to distinguish between the grays. The black and whites are easy, but not the grays and these soldiers, from the reading I've done, dealt more with the grays than the black and whites.

And don't get me wrong - none of this pertains to the willful murder and things of that nature.


But putting these people in prison for dog leashes, underwear and stress positions, while the real culprits go free is utter bullshit.

but the notion that those who DID do wrong- should go free because those who either should have stopped them from what they were doing, or who shouldn't have given the word to DO what was done, is equally ridiculous.

Even in the military, we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, regardless of the circumstances that surround us.


Unfortunately it's another example of how those with the most power usually end up paying little or nothing. But it isn't over yet.

This is where people who have quite possibly never been in a fist fight, are now literally trained killers. It is where the only emotions you feel on a regular basis are fear and frustration.

So here's a scenario: You are an E-3 reservist MP. You signed up to help you fellow citizens during floods and shit like that. Now you are a prison guard where there not only no rules, but your command has told you the people--not people, the enemy--you are guarding were responsible for 9/11.

"Intelligence" contractors come along and order you to treat the prisoners brutally. You go tell your Sergeant "this is wrong, I won't do it." Your Sergeant tells you "that's an order, do it, or else."

You are now angry and frustrated; you are probably at a level of rage you've never felt before. You're mad as hell and you've been ordered to beat the shit out of this guy.

I know what I'd do; I would beat the shit out of that guy.

Then when I got out of jail after taking the fall for the brass, I'd start looking for federal buildings to blow up.

See how this works?

Amazing!

Elisted men go to jail so that officers can go free.

ones who are being held accountable is WRONG. It won't be made 'right' by holding nobody responsible.

War fucks with people's heads, but what they did was completely wrong, and they should be held accountable.

Those who had authority over them need to be held to account for their part in this. While they may not have physically done the deeds, they are responsible for what those in their command did, AND for what was done to the detainees. Follow this logic right up to those who made the choice to wage a war which was based on manipulated evidence, and lies.

The piper needs to be paid.


:shrug:

allow the world to see exactly what was done. All of it. And I want to hear soon that the rapes and murders are not being seen as allowable with a note from those of higher rank. If they are not going to be held accountable, we have a fucking right to know what is being forgiven in our names, in detail. Full and open truth telling.

For those of you not familiar with the Milgram Experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Toss in some dynamics of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and you'll get what happened at Abu Ghraib.

I'll bet that most of the people who post regularly on DU, if placed in a situation similar to what Lynndie England was put in, would have done the same thing. You're surrounded by people who have been demonized as The Enemy, you have authority figures with more stripes on their uniforms than yours telling you that it's your duty to torment these prisoners, giving you orders that come from the White House. You get rewarded when you do torment prisoners. You're under a tremendous amount of pressure to follow orders. I'll bet most of you would have abused those prisoners too.

That's why I'm not interested in punishing the flunkies like Lynndie England. I want Dick Cheney. I want his fucking head. I want that psychopathic son-of-a-bitch on Death Row. He didn't have an authority figure pressuring him to commit war crimes. He WAS the authority figure. He committed all those crimes of his own free will.

I want Cheney to hang.