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riverdale Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:39 AM
Original message
one for the grammar nazis
Which is proper:

The Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are “sticky:” already filled in with information from the previously filled-out form.

or

The Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are “sticky”: already filled in with information from the previously filled-out form.



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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. The first, although you will see more instances of the second...
...it's wrong, but more people seem to do it so it's sort of acceptable.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm with you! NT
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Nope. Put the colon outside the quotation marks.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:57 PM by tblue37
"Quotation Marks: Where Do the Commas and Periods Go--and Why?"

http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html

In that article I also touch on colons and semicolons.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. I would do the second
But I am neither a grammar nor punctuation nazi and am often corrected by them.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I would agree with you, and use the same disclaimer.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. In the US, the second one. European English uses different "rules" for punctuation placement.
And of course they are wrong.

:P
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. British English doesn't put commas or full stops inside quotation marks either
So the first sentence would be very wrong in British English. It's because American English is inconsistent that the OP has to ask the question - and gets conflicting answers. It's blindingly obvious to native writers that the first sentence is wrong. :P

In summary, when punctuating quotations, US English places most punctuation inside the closing quotation mark.
...
Users of British English place the comma in the following sentence outside the quotation marks.

"Hello", said John.

Incidentally, the comma is used to separate *what* was said from *who* said it. Here's another example:

"Hello", he said. "How are you today?"

Note that even though the comma is outside the quotes, the question mark is inside the quotes. Why?

The comma is not considered to be part of what was actually said, so it was placed outside the quotes. (It's part of the punctuation of the surrounding sentence, rather than of the quotation.) The question mark, however, is part of the spoken text, so it's placed inside the quotes.

There is a certain common sense to this, but it does make punctuating British English harder than punctuating US English.

http://www.translationdirectory.com/article791.htm
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's the first one
from a teacher....punctuation goes inside quotations

(who will be ashamed if she is wrong)
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Not colons.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:45 AM
Original message
Colons always go outside a closing quotation mark. nt
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. Agree nt
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Isn't this a punctuation question?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. The second one is more right. The phrase after the colon
Edited on Fri May-01-09 10:46 AM by EFerrari
is missing a subject, though.
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. One
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. This might help:
http://www.englishrules.com/writing/2005/quotation-marks.php

Periods and commas: inside the quotation marks
Colons and semicolons: outside the quotation marks
Question marks and exclamation points: (a) inside if the question or exclamation is part of the quotation, and (b) outside if the question or exclamation is not part of the quotation
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dustbunnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. That's the easiest way to remember it the rules! nt
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. The grammar books say the first -
but I refuse to accommodate them in their wrongness. The quotation marks refer to only the word they enclose, while the colon references the entire phrase, therefore, the colon should, logically, be outside the quotation marks.

And I will write it thusly to the bitter end.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. FWIW, I totally agree with you. n/t
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. Will you also continue to use "thusly", complete with internal redundancy?
:evilgrin:

I agree about the colon.
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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. If those are the only two options, the second option is a no-brainer. The colon has no place
the quotes.


However if you have the freedom to rephrase it - You could use a conjunction to connect the phrase to the main clause in a manner that makes comprehension a little easier, and get rid of the colon altogether.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. I propose the admins create a Grammar Nazi Group.
I'm serious. I would join and use it.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. If so, I would rabidly protest missing commas in series' punctuation, because
Edited on Fri May-01-09 11:54 AM by valerief
everyone needs a pet, even if it's only a pet peeve.
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Oh, pretty pretty Oxford Comma: how I adore you.
You keep my list straight, when I cannot straighten my list.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not a clue
Edited on Fri May-01-09 11:00 AM by AtomicKitten
which is why I have an editor to polish my crap interpretation of the written English language.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Not colons and semicolons.
Place colons and semicolons outside closed quotation marks.

Williams described the experiment as "a definitive step forward"; other scientists disagreed.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/03/

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Spike89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Of course it depends on your style guide
The serial comma suggests you're hewing to the Chicago camp, but AP would never allow it. As an editor, I take great joy in tucking arcane exceptions into our house style guide. It drives contracted copyeditors absolutely nuts.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'd put salt in your coffee.
lol
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. Neither sentence is grammatically correct.
Edited on Fri May-01-09 11:31 AM by ddeclue
The Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are “sticky” having already been filled in with information from the previously filled-out form.

or

The Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are “sticky” because they have been filled in with information from the previously filled-out form.
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thank you...I was wondering if the obvious would be noted by anyone! lol
n/t
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Those are better, but you'd need a comma in #1. (nt)
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. no colon - comma inside the quotes
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
25. Back when I was in high school...
...I was taught to put the punctuation inside of the quotation marks.

Later, when I went to college and studied computer science, I became partial to the second form, largely because it makes more sense when parsing.

In any case, language evolves. I believe we are evolving the rules to put the punctuation outside of the quotations -- which makes sense, really, since the colon applies to the whole preceding phrase.

Also, I would point out that style has changed. A more modern style would remove the second comma as redundant. So here is my suggested alternative:

The Choose Agency, Process and Status fields are “sticky”: already filled in with information from the previously filled-out form.

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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. The colon is not needed. A simple comma
would suffice after "sticky".
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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm with you
The second sentence with a comma replacing the colon.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Yeah I think the colon actually causes more problems than it solves here...
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
28. According to my copy of Harbrace College Handbook, #2 nt
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
29. The first is officially correct but logically incorrect. I would italicize
Edited on Fri May-01-09 11:53 AM by valerief
the word sticky in this instance.

Oh, yeah, like others have noted, replace the colon with a comma.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I'm not sure the first is "officially" correct
I know Chicago Manual of Style recommends the second ...
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. I was just guessing. In doing a search, I found that there's a National Punctuation Day. Sept. 24.
Anyway, it agrees with CMS on that site.

http://www.nationalpunctuationday.com/colon.html
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. ah, I see
A couple of people had said something similar, so I was thinking maybe my was off or there were some style manuals I was unaware of :)

I'll have to try to remember to celebrate punctuation when Sept. 24 rolls around :hi:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Me, too! Punctuation Day: Not Just for Punks Anymore
:rofl:
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. Colons always go outside the quotation mark *
I can't think offhand of a style guide that says otherwise, though there might be one.

*I suppose a colon could theoretically go inside the quotation mark in the event that it is part of the text being quoted, but it would be unusual to quote a passage that ended with a colon mark.
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Sheltiemama Donating Member (892 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
37. Associated Press style is the second one.
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Papa Boule Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
38. It could use a "being that"
Being that the Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are "sticky,” moist towelettes are provided.

And maybe more descriptive language.

The Choose Agency, Process, and Status fields are “sticky:” with rich creamy centers filled in with luscious caramel and nougat.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
39. I say the second one is correct, since the colon wouldn't belong before
the second quotation mark
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turmeric Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. The first looks better, but I do believe, in this case, the latter is more kosher. n/t
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. The Downfall of Grammar
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. OMFG
Just when I thought I was sick of those Downfall movies, that one just blew the rest out of the water.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
45. The second example.
:hi:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. why would you use the word "nazi" to refer to people conversant with the rules of english?
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konnichi wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Seinfeld started it.
Not that there's anything wrong with it. :D
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
49. The second unless it is a period or comma and then it's inside quotations. n/t
Edited on Sat May-02-09 06:35 PM by vaberella
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. The second.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 07:04 PM by janx
A colon is like an equal sign. In addition, the only time a colon should be included within quotation marks is when it's part of the quote itself, which it isn't.

Why do you ask? Where did you find this? Cyber communication is getting worse and worse--there are much worse examples than this. On DU and other forums, and on major media web sites, there are incomplete sentences, wrong words, and misspellings all the time. Punctuation pales in comparison.

It's getting so bad that now I have to consciously read a good book to wash it out of my system.
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riverdale Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. I got a job as a technical writer
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6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
51. The first is correct in the USA.
The second one is correct in England.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
52. I would go with the second
I am Canadian, and I think most Canadians would do the same. I guess this is a case where we follow the British usage. Sometimes we do that, sometimes we follow American usage. It's whimsical.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
53. I have a grammar and usage site called _Grammar and Usage for the Non-Expert_.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 11:53 PM by tblue37
Here is my article on punctuation with quotation marks:
http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html

Colons and semicolons go outside quotation marks. In American punctuation, commas and periods go inside the quotation marks.

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riverdale Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Thanks for the link
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Apart from the quotation marks, the second phrase needs a subject
in order for the sentence to be correct grammatically. As someone said up thread, a colon is like an equals sign.

Ex: Sometimes you "feel like a nut": sometimes you don't.

And now, I have to go goose step around the den. lol

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