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It's a tough call but I agree with the President on the photos.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:32 PM
Original message
It's a tough call but I agree with the President on the photos.
In my opinion, the President is attempting to walk a very thin line. He released the torture memos a few weeks ago but he said he prefers to move forward. Today, he says these latest photos should not be released. Why?

I do think the President wants to be as open and transparent as humanly possible. Unfortunately, there are innocent lives involved in the decision. He did not want to give al Qaeda a propaganda tool at this time. He did not want to endanger the lives of American soldiers anymore than they are already endangered. It was not quick or easy. It was a weighty decision.

This does not mean that the President has given up transparency or seeking responsibility for crimes that might have been committed. I do not think he wants to sweep it under the rug. However, I do not think he is necessarily looking for people to be punished.

But, I do think he wants the truth to come out. If the masses decide that there should be punishment, he would not stand in the way. However, he will not lead in this endeavor to punish wrongdoers. That decision will be left up to the people and the Congress. This is not the primary issue that he wishes to spend his credibility upon, no matter that it is vitally important to so many citizens.

For those that criticize others for looking at issues as simply black or white, I think they are looking at this issue in exactly that way. There are a lot of gray areas in this decision. We may not agree but we do need to understand the complexity and consequence of the matter.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excuses.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Fucking A - I've never seen so many DU'er make excuses for Obama - what if it were Bush
holding back the photos once again? People are so easily fooled and manipulated - obviously not all that principled though. Whatever happened to seeking the truth? Sigh.. I need a drink.. :(
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. In my case, I'm not making excuses. I simply
don't agree with you. YOUR analysis is not automatically correct.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
41. Well, we do like Obama more..
... and so, when a decision like this is made... I like to sit down, with a drink, and see if I can figure out a way to not be mad at him.
The argument about a propaganda tool for Al Qaeda seems... well, I want to say reasonable, but all I keep coming up with is... shaky. If the photos are really just "more of the same" as we've seen before... then how would they be any more of a propaganda tool? Does this mean that Obama's implying that these ones are worse than what we've seen before??
And that was a thought that evolved as I wrote it while sipping whiskey... I'm thinking that the Al Qaeda recruiters can come up with it too... (if not, well then maybe I just gave them a new recruiting tool... oops).

So ok, that excuse is weak. I'm going to assume that Obama's not worried about giving Cheney more to talk about... that would be a good thing, politically speaking. (Though I am beginning to think that, if no one goes out and gives Cheney a sound verbal thrashing soon, some of the dumber moderates might go back to the dark side... not that I'd miss them, but what's the point of talking to asshats like Rick Warren if the "low info" moderates are going to then be lost to the likes of Cheney?)
Rush getting all excited about the photos... not an issue. Who? Who is worried about more photos?

Ok, I've tried... I can't think of a reasonable reason not to release them. It's not like those "being recruited" don't know &/or won't be told how many have been "detained". It's not like recruiters can't come up with lists of names as long as their arms. More of the same?... no reason not to release them.

Ok, well... for those who would claim the checkers meme... at least acknowledge that my piece has gotten to the other end of the board, and deserves to be kinged.

And now it's time for another drink, because Obama's playing another detail too cautiously as far as I'm concerned. The only "who" that I can think of that Obama might legitimately be worried about seeing the pictures is... the American Public... because more of the same might remind them of what was done in their name... and outrage might be fanned back to flames...

We wouldn't want that, now would we?
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #41
56. I can think of a reason. I disagreed with their release as soon as I heard
of it.

More of the same could be a propaganda tool but the point of that is why it makes good propaganda.
It is because we shamed them. Yes we are the ones who did wrong...but they have such a strong sense of...honor or whatever...and releasing the pictures of them being shamed shames them anew.

If I was abused and humiliated I would not want the pictures released for others to gawk at. The thought of that makes me sick

When we saw the first group of pictures I felt the same way. While many were aghast the "boys will be boys" group were not and I'd guess too many got a kick out of it.

In the countries of those involved...it must have been so painful. If it was our guys in humiliating positions I would not want those pictures released to the public either.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
70. That is a good reason. Not good enough though, I don't think.
I've worked with a lot of Arab men. I've had Lebanese men show me the scars from Israeli bullet wounds. I've listened to them talk about having to try to find work in Saudi Arabia, and the strange worker camps that they are forced to live in while on contract there...
Yes, you are very right. There would be shame in having the pictures on display. And it would renew anger. But, in my opinion... releasing the photos, acknowledging that the entire policy was wrong... and vowing to prosecute those who were responsible... I think such an acknowledgement would allow many to let go of... some of the anger. Not all. Never all of the anger and rage... but enough so that they would at least consider turning from fighting to working, maybe having a family... that sort of human activity. And it might make family members at the very least think twice before signing up with the recruiters.

What I think many Americans don't realize... and I might be wrong... but I think many don't realize that, it's a very different thing for citizens of the most powerful military power on the planet to be enraged about "abuses" than it is for citizens of a militarily "puny in the face of a superpower aggressor"... When an American is outraged and joins the military to get some "payback"... they don't generally expect any more than a chance of dying in the "cause"... for the Islamic Militant Recruits... they have to consider themselves dead the day they join. Most likely they will be dead. Most likely an American bomb, or an American depleted uranium bullet, or something else American (maybe in the hands of an Israeli)... will kill them. It takes an awful lot of rage to sign up for that. Ratchet that rage down a bit... and you have less enemies...
Admit that you've done wrong... and that's a step toward ratcheting down the rage. There's nothing worse than being victimized, and then told that it was your own fault... and watching those who did the victimizing retiring to a ranch in Texas. Or Wyoming.

Mmm... I need another drink. For Basil and his Israeli bullet scars...
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #56
74. I disagree with the TORTURE - the world needs to know what we did
I'm tired of all this propaganda bullshit. We did it - we need to own up to it. Saying it isn't enough. Does it bother you that your government did this? Good - it should. A picture speaks a thousand words and everyone knows it. If you don't want to release pictures showing torture, then DO NO TORTURE PEOPLE. It's that simple. I want the truth - whereever that leads. This is not about our guys and their guys - this is about TORTURE and humanity. Damn.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
99. So, you would feel better
if only a select group got to see your "pictures of shame" and not even you were allowed to see them?
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Yes. Let the judge and jury see them. nt
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
82. If the worst thing Bush did in his 8 years was not release some photos...
There would likely have been very little outrage about his refusal to release some photos. Yes we would be jumping all over Bush, but not because he didn't release photos but because he did that and 10,000 other horrendous things.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. It's not just that he's now "pulling a Bush" and censoring photos - it's the LACK OF ANY INVESTIGAT
The lack of any investigation into the crimes of the Bush administration. This is just the latest in Obama's attempts to cover for them and it's really pissing me off.
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. You must have agreed when Bush made the exact same argument.
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. support Obama
I for one will support President Obama's decisions it's to early in the game to second guess and whine about every decision he makes. I'll leave that to the other side. I know a lot of people on this board feel they are much smarter than the president but he needs our support now!
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The Repos said the exact same thing about bush, but I know you can't see that.
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I will
not put Obama on the same level as bush. Think about what you are saying!
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. You misunderstan. I'm putting your blind loyalty on the same level as the Repos blind loyalty.
It both blind loyalty. It's a faith based politics.

You can't see it in yourself, but it's clear to you when the Repos are doing it.
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obliviously Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. 100 days
He has barely started his term there has to be a reasonable amount of trust here or we shouldn't have voted for him. He has far more intelligence revealed to him then we could imagine. Ease up we are to geared toward instant gratification in this country.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. I voted for him and I'd vote for him again. still, he told us he would make some bad decisions. And
it's up to us as citizens to keep our leaders from doing stupid bone headed things like Obama is doing here.\

100 days 1000 days, it makes no difference.

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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
88. I haven't seen any whining at all on this issue
You must read a different DU than me.

:shrug:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Why would you say that?
I understand those that say it is no different from Bush but, in my opinion, they are playing checkers.
The short-term strategy of tomorrow is short-sighted. There must be a longer-term strategy if we wish to pursue the entirety of the torture and law-breaking. Don't play into their hands. This is hardball politics of the hardest kind. Dick Cheney is running fucking scared. Keep your powder dry. I support the President on this issue.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
62. I'm really starting to have my doubts about the Cheney is scared theory.
I think he's showing surprising message discipline. I think, if he keeps on the way he's keeping on, at least a couple % more of the US population will start to believe him. I think there's a reason that McDonald's and Coke still spend so much on advertising despite being world wide tip of the tongue brands. I think the repetition will start to get to the softer brained citizens. Message discipline did wonders for Bush, especially in '04... when any dolt should've been able to see that he was an idiot... but if he kept saying the same thing, he must've been telling the truth... Repetition as a form of argument.

Your apparent argument that this latest message barrage by Cheney is supposed to support the idea that Obama's chess game isn't ready to use up an awful lot of us pawns in an effort to conserve the "higher value pieces"... or rather that we "pawns" should cheerily volunteer to have our interests "sacrificed" in the name of the greater game, and the interests of the "higher value pieces"... I'm not finding myself convinced.
You can go on playing your part like a pawn if you'd like... but I think I'm gonna promote myself. Maybe a rook...
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
83. If the worst thing Bush had done was not release some photos...
I indeed might have indeed agreed with him. But before we got to this point he did about 10,000 other horrendous things thus giving me reason to be suspicious of anything he does. Obama doesn't have Bush's track record and that does make a difference.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. To quote another poster,
Edited on Wed May-13-09 11:44 PM by snot
"The biggest threat to our national security is not releasing the photos, but failing to prosecute those who ordered torture."

Obama is admitting we did terrible things, but failing to hold those who encouraged it accountable. Can you really think of a worse approach?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. "National Security" is the new excuse for both doing terrible things, and refusing to be accountable
Edited on Wed May-13-09 11:51 PM by Oregone
I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the real decision. The government just doesn't want to be accountable for their torture program. They don't want more negative news influencing an already downward economic spiral.

I guess no one is bothered Obama is pulling this excuse out of his ass the same way his predecessor did?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. People think there is a secret plan. They don't believe Obama when he says "What you see is what
Edited on Wed May-13-09 11:54 PM by John Q. Citizen
you get." They just know that there has to be really a secret long term plan, and he's just faking.

People are so easily self deluded. They want to believe, so they do.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree. To think that he honestly changed his mind on this
for any reason other than the welfare of our soldiers doesn't make sense. I think he takes his responsibility as CIC very seriously. It's a difficult balance, but he's chosen to put lives top priority.

glad to rec.

and thanks for this.
:hi:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Thank you.
It good to see that someone is thinking outside of a small 6-foot circle.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Except he's leaving our troops in harms way. As he's protecting them at the same time.
Sound schizophrenic? It is.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Is it really that simple?
Just bring all the troops home tomorrow, right? I'm starting to agree with you. :-)
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Politically in this country it would be brutal. Still, it would protect the troops from harm a lot
Edited on Thu May-14-09 12:16 AM by John Q. Citizen
more than not releasing the photos.

So if protecting the troops is the highest goal...

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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. You are correct! See Robert Greenwald's "Rethink Afghanistan" here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r54SnuOXrY&feature=PlayList&p=0F2B9493006F6389&index=0&playnext=1

And for the record - you release the photos like promised! You do NOT cover-up torture. Where's the promised transparency? Don't like the photos? Then DON'T TORTURE PEOPLE!!!
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
92. So we should give the troops no protection at all?
Why bother to give them guns and armor since "he's leaving our troops in harms way...as he's protecting them at the same time?"

Think about it.

Do you really believe President Obama is "leaving our troops in harms way" just for the hell of it?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Have you been drinking? I wrote what I meant. You can quote me. But don't go making stuff up.
Edited on Thu May-14-09 09:36 AM by John Q. Citizen
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
90. I agree!
It's easy to be cynical but I don't see any evidence that President Obama is doing this for any other reason than what he thinks is best for the troops and the country.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. I don't agree with President Obama's decision.
But I will kick and rec your thread to continue the discussion.

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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. So morality and the rule of law only apply when it's convenient, eh?
Edited on Wed May-13-09 11:59 PM by RufusTFirefly
Niiice!

Reminds me of a friend whose brother-in-law turned out to be a crook. She thought he should be spared from prison for the sake of his kids. (He's wealthy and white.) I reminded her that most other crooks don't have that particular luxury.

Germany was in shambles after World War II. Wouldn't it have been wise to skip the Nuremberg Trials so the country could get back on its feet?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Your point is well taken but...
it is my opinion that cooler heads will prevail. Those that ride off with their ropes and pistols looking for a hanging may get temporary satisfaction, but they will not uncover the truth, they will only satisfy their own temporary lust for punishment. I can think of no one with a cooler head than the President at this time...
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. You are mischaracterizing justice as vindictiveness
Edited on Thu May-14-09 12:07 AM by RufusTFirefly
If someone robs a bank and gets tossed in jail, are the police being vindictive? Or are they simply following the rule of law?
I don't want to hang anybody. I don't want any additional people to die. I simply want the country that I live in and love to honor the rule of law.

There's nothing vindictive about it. That whole line of reasoning is a great big red herring.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. If someone robs a bank and you follow him to his hideout....?
And you bust the entire gang, would that be better than to arrest the one bank robber immediately? You have followed the rule of law and arrested the bankrobber, what more could be expected? I think this is a much bigger operation than just one bank robber and I think the President understands that and is playing his cards right when he has a winning hand and is folding his cards when he smells a loser...
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. If it appears that the robber is turning over the loot to Mr. Big, you betcha! n/t
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. So you want to catch Mr. Big ?
Maybe that is why he is being so cautious? I have to see more before I believe that Barack Obama has deserted his belief in the Constitution and the rule of law.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. You are moving the goal posts
What happened to your suggestion that it was all about being vindictive?

And why will releasing evidence that documents the extent of our torturing risk the case for prosecuting the men and women behind this policy?

If you are trying to bring the Mr. Bigs of the world to justice, it helps to have the little guys testify against them, but releasing the evidence is a different matter entirely. That's just democratic transparency. Under Darth Cheney we've become such a fearful and secretive society that we no longer recognize the basic characteristics of open democratic government.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. How divisive would it be?
And can justice be achieved when two different parties are divided into two equal camps and there is no room for compromise, because justice cannot be compromised? There is a time and place for everything. I agree that we've become such a fearful and secretive society "that we no longer recognize the basic characteristics of open democratic government."

Unfortunately, we have become a divided nation and some scoundrels hide behind their Party labels, hoping to inflame enough people to protect them from the wrath of our justice system. They play their partisan defense like a shield from everything in the universe.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. One party supports torture? I can't believe it.
To refrain from honoring the rule of law out of fear of offending people on the other side of the aisle strikes me as the height of Milquetoast democracy. Ironically, our mere hesitation actually adds credence to the fallacious notion that this is a political issue instead of one that strikes at the heart of our democratic identity.

Torture is not only morally wrong but a gross violation of both domestic and international law (which is actionable as domestic law). Nothing is black and white, of course, but this is pretty damn clear.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Rufus, let me say that I agree with your ideals...
But it is not about refraining from honoring the rule of law out of fear of offending people. It is the unrealistic idea that we can snap our fingers and send the torture kings to prison for life or to the Hague to stand trial. it sounds great! I'm all for it! But it ain't gonna happen. The best we will get out of this entire immoral mess is a fair amount of truth about what went on. If these photos are released, the truth will become more and more difficult to uncover. It is obvious that we disagree on this matter but I do deeply respect your thoughts and opinions.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. You have cornfused me...
"If these photos are released, the truth will become more and more difficult to uncover." ?? :tinfoilhat:

Why? What possible reasoning leads you to this conclusion? Is the release of these photos going to tip those behind the EITs that "we're on to them"?... Or are you of the opinion that the public seeing more of these photos will... cause them to rally behind the W administration?... and threaten civil disobedience if anyone dares... do anything about all that swell torture?..

I'd really like to hear your theory on this.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #72
97. I agree. Sounds pretty Orwellian to me.
Showing the truth will make the truth harder to uncover? WTF?
Oh yeah, and freedom is slavery, too.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. This is a political issue moreso than about justice & accountability...
Politics can create a wall to block anything unless there is a consensus. To further the political divide creates the opposite of what we really want. How can we get any prosecutions if the Congress is totally divided? How can we get any justice or accountability if half the folks in Congress are blocking you at every turn? In my opinion, it is a long process of exposing the truth bit by bit, until the people reach a consensus. The photos would not further that process at this time, in my humble opinion.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. I think that's fair. We humans jump to conclusions a lot. Still, I think the photos should be
released (for a number of different reasons) and I know that the higher-ups and the decision makers must be tried for torture(whatever the charges would be)

We owe it to our troops and to our children.

While difficult it will be far better in the long run.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. That's such a ridiculous analogy. Logic-wise, you're well into FReeper territory.
Such ridiculous TWISTING of fact and reason-
it's like you just cut-n- pasted some 12-month-old post
written by a B*sh supporter.

You've made me sad very now, so I'll go before I say any more.

Goodbye.

Richard
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Perhaps...
But, it would not only create tougher conditions for our young people in Afghanistan, it would also create more soldiers in the partisan defense of Dick Cheney, George W Bush, John Yoo, Steven Bradbury, and the other criminals that are only looking for a partisan war to hide behind. As liberals such as you or I are going to hold their feet to the fire and put every damn one of those dirty lying bastards behind bars. Yeah, sure...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. You know every american should be forced to bear witness
every american

That is what took to break the spell in Nazi Germany'

Won't happen, see what I said about Empire

And justice will only come to these people after the fall of Empire, not a second before and not in our courts. Yes feel free to bookmark this.

So for your moral stand, you have to decide, do you elect a leader or a representative, if you elected a leader, by all means carry on... not a word from me. If you elected a representative, then my dear your job is to call them on it, when they do wrong. No matter if they are democrats, republicans, or wear pink tutus.

Citizenship is not for the faint of heart.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. that was very well said, and very compassionate as well.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. So two weeks ago you also agreed with him that we needed to release them
Oh never mind...

My party right or wrong...

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Maybe I am wrong?
Maybe the President is wrong? Maybe you are right? :shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Each citizen has to decide Kentuk
and yes presidents do make mistakes

But make no mistake, this is not about an overall future plan

This is about Empire

They did the same with Iran Contra, they were wrong back then, and he's wrong today
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
24. I assume Iraqis already know what was done to them.
Our troops are in constant danger no matter what as long as they are forced to stay in places they are unwanted. The people who do not want the photos released are: war criminals, embarrassed politicians, and American citizens who have been duped, manipulated, and scared.


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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Exactly, Swamp Rat. We are behaving like toddlers who cover their eyes and cry
"You can't see me!"

The world already knows what we've done. It's waiting to see if we are grown up enough and contrite enough to acknowledge it.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. It's unconscionable, insidious, making Americans fear for the lives of their
daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, friends, as a ploy to cover up the most heinous of crimes. However, your point is well taken. Fool me once...


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. SWAMPIE, we love you and missed you
now we return you to the previously scheduled thread
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. oi nadinbrzezinski!
:hi: Just visiting DU for a few days, while I have access to a computer, though the Internet here on the other side of the globe is slower than molasses. :hug:

I'll be here in a week:

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Cool enjoy
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. It's great to see you back Swamp Rat- and I really hate
to disagree with you, but where do you put Pres. Obama in your list?

I don't think he's embarassed, duped, manipulated or scared. I agree that many of the Iraqi people wouldn't be surprised by any of the photos, but I DO think the photo's will effect people more than many realize.

Your pictures elicit responses that simple words or knowledge cannot.

The photos are no different. Just as cheney et.al tried to keep the pictures that would distress America out of the media's reach. Like flag draped coffins- etc.

The same way 9/11 photos were used to incite the desire for revenge (cleverly called 'justice').

A picture speaks where words fail.


glad to 'see' you- again.

peace~
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. I was not referring to Obama at all.
I think the greatest effect of releasing the photos will be on the American People... and then 'justice' itself.




Nice to see you and everyone here. :hi:

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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
54. EXACTLY right
I am puzzled by those who argue that any of these pictures would put our troops in danger. From who? The Iraqis know full well what has been done to them; there isn't one thing in any of those pictures that will shock them. They live with it every stinkin' day, and have for years. Is there a family left over there that hasn't lost a loved one or seven? Who hasn't had a family member thrown into prison for the crime of being male and of fighting age? No, they know, and the stories they tell are more horrendous than anything in those pictures could be.

Funny thing though. You know who DOESN'T know what we really did? The American public. Most of us just tune it out and refuse to think that we did anything more than what we already saw from Abu Ghraib, and of course that was just a "few bad apples" who have since been punished. Oh and we probably waterboarded this one guy who was the real criminal mastermind of Al Qaeda, but that really isn't torture anyway and even if it was he deserved it so there. Those are the people who need to face the truth, who need to understand that it was NOT a few bad apples, and it IS torture, and that someone needs to accept responsibility for all of this.

And that of course is why the pictures aren't likely to be released, ever. Because the powers that be know that if they are there will be an outcry and people will demand that justice be served and you know that just isn't on their agenda right now thank you very much, not even Obama's. Hell I like the man, but I ain't stupid. He knows that if we rehash all of this there will be trials and everything else gets kinda put on the back burner, and if and when we ever do get around to discussing actual policy again the environment will be so partisan we're gonna need razor wire installed between the aisles in the Senate. Who wants to be President only to serve as the janitorial crew for the guy who came before you? Not President Obama, and in a way I can hardly blame him.

Unfortunately that means sweeping some stuff under the rug and I really cannot abide that. Hardly matters, there's jack all I can do about it, but I do not support it even if I do understand it.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
93. hey swampy you're back!!
Edited on Thu May-14-09 07:57 AM by bdamomma
if you're wondering who this is it's (alyce douglas)
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
29. It's not a tough call, and you're WRONG.
nm
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Is that a fact ?
Or just your opinion?
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. That's TWO facts, actually. Do try to keep up.
BTW: HYPOCRISY really rubs me the wrong way,
and no one here at DU likes me when I'm angry,
and I don't like it when no one at DU likes me......

So, I think it would be best for all concerned
if I put you on "ignore" now.

Welcome to IGNORE. :hi:

Sincerely,
Richard Steele.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. I am so honored.
Thank you. I hope you keep it on "ignore" forever.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
Donate and you'll be automatically entered into our daily contest.
New prizes daily!



No purchase or donation necessary. Void where prohibited. Click here for more information.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
42. If the President was going to release them,
and then decided not to, there was a good reason for it
from where I sit.
Makes no sense that he would simply do it this way, i.e.,
a giant loud flip flop unless he felt so compeled.

Was it right or was it wrong?

Depends on if there is an American soldier who won't be captured and
tortured in the exact same manner as photos depict.
Fortunately, we may never know!

Far as I'm concerned, I didn't need anymore photos,
As I barely could look at the last ones......
but for those who need more, I understand your disappointment.

Hope they come out at a later date.....
specifically at least after Memorial Day.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Here is where you are wrong
BEFORE abu graib American POWs came home

After Abu Graib they don't

So they already have been captured, tortured and killed

So that is an excuse...
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #42
63. I think Nadia said it well. I elected a representative and you elected a leader. Your
job is to follow your leader, and mine is hold my representative accountable.

You assume there is a very good reason for whatever Obama decides. He's the decider.

i want to know what the reason is before I judge whether I think it's a good reason or a bad reason. I am the decider whether it is a good reason or a bad reason.

At least that's how it looks to me from where I sit.

So we are both doing our duty as we see it I guess.

I wonder if the Iraqis have a memorial day for the victims of American torture? I hope they are released by then, if they do. And I hope the people responsible for the torture policy are tried in an American court of law and soon.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
49. obama has been and continues to be an obstructionist
on the issue of bush cabal accountability for war crimes.

gray area my ass.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
50. The definition of a tragedy is
a situation where, no matter what the protagonists do, they will have to experience catastrophic repercussions.

Whatever Obama does now, it will ruin many more lives, it will end careers, it will endanger our soldiers, our reputation and the American economy.

Just think: If the perps are prosecuted, how many lawsuits will be brought against the US for billions of dollars in restitution from how many countries and interest groups? Germany has paid billions to Israel, but it is never enough for the right-wingers there. They still want more. More money and further humiliation.

I'm with you, kentuck.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. And paying reparations for going to war on false pretenses is exactly wrong
how?


Or are we that morally superior to other nations that we never are supposed to suffer consequences

Partly this non release is to keep the myth of american excepcionalism alive and well... well we are not

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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. I agree. It's a tragic situation
where millions of innocent, hard-working Americans who are already teetering on the edge of bankruptcy are going to suffer even more than they ever imagined. And for generations, probably.

This is one heck of an expensive lesson in how to become a more humble and cooperative part of the global community. Go USA!!! We're number one!!! Yeah... not so much anymore, eh?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. No and reparations will come
as to the american populace... well that is what happens when you have an uber nationalist ignorant bunch of sheeple... and yes I count myself as one, even though I knew better and did my best to try to stop this madness

But even when I knew, I failed... so yes, I will have to pay reparations... with the rest of you.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. If I could, I would give the Iraqis all the gold in Fort Knox
But that would not bring back the millions we killed over the last couple of decades.

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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. My stepfather worked with Iraquis in Baghdad as an engineer
before the illegal war of aggression. He thinks they were definitely better off under the terrible regime of Saddam Hussein. Much better off than they are now, all traumatized and broken by the American war machine.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
59. I'm an American, I can handle the truth
democracy is nourished by truth and cleansed by the light.

But what the fuck, it's over anyway.
All Hail The Uniparty
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
61. I will defer to his judgement
I do think that the pictures should be released once we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. There is a time and place to release the photos...
Just not at this moment. I think the President's judgement is much better than most folks here tonight.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #64
87. Obama goes to Egypt soon, the pics would dampen the mood. 2. His Generals recommended the stop, fear
for Troops...now is not the Time....

He has been right so far on a great many things...I can wait for the photos...

Torture? Now thats another story....I say a SP is needed
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. I agree, opihimoimoi...
"Torture? Now thats another story....I say a SP is needed."

And the photos could take the focus off the torture story in its present context.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
71. Bullshit. I think he has seen for himself how horrific the stuff is.
It ain't no frat prank. Sy Hersh says little boys are being sodomized in front of their mothers.

He's covering up these horrific crimes, just like his predecessor. Plain and simple.


Like it never even happened. Just move on. Nothing to see here.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Not plain and simple, unfortunately.
Not black and white. The higher you rise above the scenery, the more perspectives you can see.

Some of us see infinite shades of gray between the two extremes you are extolling in your post.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. No, there are many intricacies to be considered.
If however, this is correct: "Sy Hersh says little boys are being sodomized in front of their mothers."--- Well then, you'll need to get some PR specialists from NAMBLA to fill in the greys.

Unless, of course, you're willing to "rise above the scenery" far enough to allow any barbarism imaginable on a nation that was not responsible for any terror except that unleashed in the name of securing the funds to pay the US back for all the WMDs they bought from us in a failed attempt to conquer a nation that managed to overthrow the ruler that the US had installed to oppress them...

Well, I gotta say, it does take some serious altitude to make all the colors of that bit of history fade to shades of gray... rather than green and red and black...

Hmm... I think you need better glasses to make out the details at the altitudes you are rising above the scenery.

Or are you floating over the DC scenery?... where the horrors of the Middle East are merely a political matter... and the real battle is... to maintain control of the branches of government... so that... "our" side can take credit for bailing out the banks?...
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. 'Infinite shades of gray' is a euphemism.
Edited on Thu May-14-09 02:08 AM by Kaleko
Seeing nuances and ambiguities doesn't mean that I have a fixed position at a certain altitude and cannot descend into the midst of the nitty gritty, so to speak.

No single perspective can disclose the whole of an occasion in time and space. Obama, as president and Commander-in-Chief, has viewpoints due to information he gets that we can speculate about, but let's not fool ourselves here. We cannot possibly see all the things that he must keep in mind when making decisions that affect the fate of billions around the world.

Anyway, the ACLU has just released news that a whole bunch of the torture photos in question WILL be released on May 28th.

* Edit to add a link to the ACLU release:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5650705&mesg_id=5651149

So the saga continues...
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. No, that was BEFORE the flip-flop.
That ACLU release is from April.

Here is what Cheney said about all this torture stuff just 4 days ago:


"I think it’s very, very important that we have a clear understanding that what happened here was an honorable approach to defending the nation, that there was nothing devious or deceitful or dishonest or illegal about what was done."


No need to tell the truth when lies will serve a better purpose. Makes sense, sort of, if you don't give a shit about truth, justice or the American way.


Better keep those photos hidden.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. You're right, that ACLU memo is outdated.
Sorry, I should have checked the date!

Found this in my inbox today:

Dear ACLU Supporter,

Hours ago, the Obama administration disappointingly reversed its promise to make public photos depicting detainee abuse by U.S. personnel overseas. The Department of Defense recently told a federal judge that it would release a “substantial number” of photos in response to a court ruling in an ACLU Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

There is no doubt that these photos would be disturbing. The day we are no longer upset by such repugnant acts would be a sad one. But, the outrage related to these photos shouldn’t be about their release. It should be about the horrific crimes that they depict. And, we must demand accountability for the widespread abuse they document.

The very fact that these photos exist only underscores the need for accountability and for a full investigation of crimes committed. As President Obama said on his first full day in office, “A democracy requires accountability, and accountability requires transparency.”

Tell President Obama you support transparency and accountability at the highest levels of government:

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr010=u6bslq9pk2.app25a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1497

The ACLU pressed for the recent release of the long-secret Bush torture memos and is now calling for the release of the abuse photos because -- as painful as it is -- confronting the evidence of what was done is essential if we are to live by the law.

Those who turned a blind eye to abuse and those who put the despicable U.S. torture program in place had no right to ignore the rule of law.

And, no matter how hard some might try to turn us away from the facts, we also have no right to ignore the rule of law. We have to call to account those who did this and follow the evidence wherever it leads.

Please take a few moments to tell President Obama that you support transparency and accountability.

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr010=u6bslq9pk2.app25a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1497

Sooner or later, these photos will come to light. And when they do, you and I will be heartbroken and sick to our stomachs to see so vividly what the U.S. torture program entailed.

But, the real heartbreak -- the real betrayal of our values and principles -- would come if we denied our moral and legal responsibility to bring to account those who involved our country in torture so horrid that we hesitate to even look it in the eye.

The President is listening to and weighing carefully the advice of those in his administration on these issues. But he also needs to hear from concerned citizens like you.

Tell President Obama you support transparency and accountability:

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr010=u6bslq9pk2.app25a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1497

The debate about the release of these photos will continue in the courts, and the ACLU will be there to argue for transparency and to insist that a democracy thrives on the free flow of information.

I urge you to act on your deepest beliefs about what kind of country we are. Join the ACLU in calling on President Obama to put the full weight of his leadership behind our call for transparency and accountability.

Sincerely,



Anthony D. Romero
Executive Director
ACLU

P.S. We’re talking about issues of fundamental importance to our core beliefs. Please share this email with as many people as possible.


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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. I don't understand how Obama can jerk their chain like this.
It ain't right. The ACLU deserves to be treated much better than this. I'm beginning to lose any patience that I have left. :(
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. I will readily agree that no single perspective can perceive the whole of an occasion.
Of the many perspectives that I can intuit, however, I see only one, or perhaps two, which make the blocking of the release of the photos is a "good idea".

The first is the cynical idea that supposes that Obama, in his desire to just gloss over the whole torture issue in order to "move on to more important business" worries that the release of the photos will just re-ignite the popular outrage over what has been done... making it harder to: gloss over the whole torture issue.
I object to that line of reasoning, as I worry that it will lead to a result similar to that of glossing over Iran Contra, which might well be responsible for the fact that the likes of Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld were able to find work in the W Whitehouse....

The second theory, giving Obama more benefit of the doubt, would be to assume that he wants to be forced into obeying the court order... in order to set a precedent... but that scenario would, it seems to me, also require Obama to sacrifice some political capital... which would inevitably be the result of being forced to do anything.

The news that the Pentagon will, in fact, release significant numbers of photos... on the same day that Obama is apparently directing the DoJ to object to releasing the photos... strikes me as oddly schizophrenic. I can't help but wonder, firstly, if the Pentagon made that announcement before Obama apparently changed his mind... and secondly, if that means that there are just some photos that are so awful that Obama's trying to pick and choose which are released.
Any are better than none. The "pick and choose" option, however, seems to me like it might well provide every bit as much propaganda opportunities as releasing none. Which would, of course, undermine the new Obama justification... in my opinion.

The saga does indeed continue.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #71
91. SAME as it ever was ...
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
77. I know that Dick and Bush agree with yiou 100% n/t
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #77
85. I wouldn't be so quick to say Dick agrees with that 100%
I bet if those photos were released tomorrow, Dick would bring them to a Fixed News interview and show them for the cameras and say "this is what we had to do to protect the country".
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
84. Honestly I think he wants the truth to come out but not in the near future
We will see those photos eventually and we will apologize for it eventually just like we apologized for Japanese interment decades after the fact.
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Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
94. We elected him
so let's allow him to frame the tactics.


That said, if this doesn't end in prosecutions at the highest level our country is finished.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
95. No tough call at all...
Edited on Thu May-14-09 08:04 AM by RetroLounge
Obama is just another stooge protecting the other stooges.

DTM

RL
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