I think it's just sad to see so many DUers being

played by the repukes and repukes at the CIA. Given the choice of believing the likes of Gingrich, Boehner, the CIA, etc, or Pelosi and Graham, I'll go with the latter two, but even if I'm mistaken there and Pelosi was briefed to some extent, she's still irrelevant. She didn't authorize, design or carry out torture. She is not legally culpable even if she was briefed,but here in DUland there are plenty of people spending more time focused on Pelosi's non-crimes than on Cheney's very real ones.

Though the looking glass time on DU.

They are easily distracted, aren't they?

We are talking about republicans & the CIA - people need to snap the fuck out of it.

who is attached to this abomination deserves to swing. I wonder if she regrets 'impeachment is off the fucking table' now?

:thumbsup:

which is the source of the problem.

She's pretty well shot herself in the foot with her waffling and vague public statements. The corporate media hasn't changed its stripes- and she gave them everything they needed to run a Republican propaganda campaign.

about DUers here being played.

regardless of the fact that it's only going to end up misinforming them. People think that they can weed through the crap- but propaganda's much more insidious and in the end effective than most people's defense mechanisms.

9/10th's of everything in the states remains a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican party. That hasn't changed.

Her handling of this has not been a stellar performance.
She appears confused, especially with the version changes. I hope
this doesn't end up costing her the Chair.

It's all personal. They hate/love Pelosi and that's what it's all about.

For too many people here, it's all about the people, not the policies.

now we are being asked to side with her?

while wanting to wring their necks over others.

torturers??

Because she pissed you off in the past?

You have got to be kidding or we are truly fucked.

decisions have consequences.

She refused to investigate Bush. Why, we have no idea. Now some things are coming out that would show us the reasons that she possibly didnt investigate him (because possibly she knew all along, and did nothing). I dont know, but I will not blindly support her just because.

signed,
I have no idea who to trust

you are clueless.

Decisions have consequences??? For who? Those who are getting away with murder while you're taking Nancy Pelosi to task over Bush?

What the fuck about Bush - the man himself?

Isn't he the one who should be the focus of your ire & mistrust?

Don't be such a willing tool.

Understandable in this day and age. But, there is one group we know we can never trust....



:)

It's about demanding justice for what was done in our name. If the focus continues to be on Nancy, I can guarantee you that the people who developed the torture policies and ordered them to be carried out will never so much as be damned by history as torturers let alone be subject to a court of law. Right now evidence is coming out that cheney indeed used torture to attempt to extract false confessions out of prisoners to tie al Qaeda to Saddam/Iraq. How much have you heard about that on the news cycles?

By allowing ourselves to be divided and distracted, we are enabling the neocons/gop/corporate media to let those responsible for the crimes to get away with it. I beg of you to watch cnn & msnbc during the day and you will see what I am talking about. Goppers & the media are still denying that torture is A) illegal B) ordered by the bush*administration's White House, and, C) ineffective and morally wrong to use. So why then should any of them give a rat's behind about what Nancy knew if, in their view, there was nothing wrong with the torture program?

All of us, regardless if we believe Nancy or believe that she is complicit in torture, must stand together to demand that those who developed the torture program be held accountable. From there let the truth roll down hill. If we allow the focus to be on Nancy now, no one will ever be held accountable.

... until it gets through to everyone.

This Pelosi situation is about distraction from what the Republicans did and sadly it's working.

This is actually one of the smarter things the Repubs have done since Obama took office. It plays right into a pre-existing dislike of Pelosi, and successfully distracts us from the main culprits.

For the record, I don't like her either and was just as pissed at her (still am), but my dislike for her isn't nearly as high as my dislike for Republicans, and the game they're playing here. So yes, now is a time to side with her, because the larger goal still remains, and Nancy can be dealt with later at the voting booth.

d'oh

;)

what the whole of Congress did... Torture was illegal and the Bush Administration is totally responsible for it's use, not Congress.

We fall for it every time. People will believe Rush, Fox, Hannity, O'Reilly, Drudge, the CIA, the Washington Times, et al, if it helps their agenda.

Who are these idiots who wish to walk, and yet demand we let them chew gum, at the same time?

What's more, whatever I saw on the TV today is a distraction from the torture issue. Unless it is about torture, in which case it is a double-secret distraction.

The pukes, as usual, are trying to take the heat off themselves by trying to change the subject.

and are digging themselves a new hole. Bush/cheney did just that and cheney is still digging. One can only hope they will force a non-partisan investigation, special prosecutor type hearing, like they did Clinton. Cost was no object to the repubs when it came to burying Clinton. Exposing the lies that caused us to attack a county that had not attacked us and had no way of causing us any real harm in the near future is a worthy cause for this country. Everyone gets blamed but the real criminals, bush/cheney.

DUers, stop being distracted

focus on who committed the crimes ... and imprison the bastards

they are rarely disappointed. Pelosi has taken the heat for a lot of decisions that were not hers alone and the Cheney people know she is easy to attack. I think it's a shame how disloyal liberals are. It's no wonder we can't hold on to the country for more than a few years at a time.

think Nancy has handled this less than competently. She left
herself wide open and the GOP are running a Mack Truck right
through the opening.

On something this serious,she should have been forthright
and direct. Leaving the Media days as she corrected one statement
after another was painful to watch.

The Democrats simply need to wake up and smell the coffee.
I have been warning over and over --The GOP are out for blood.
They have lost power and are looking under every rock to find
a way to climb back. Every Democrat is open game for them.
They are often saying other Democrats are culpable.

Having said that, I support Nancy. I just hope the Dems on the
Hill start watching what is going on TV and are better prepared.

If all the accusations and poo-flinging from the wingnuts was accurate, than at worst, Nancy Pelosi would be guilty of hearing about torture, then not speaking up in a highly hostile political environment where people caught leaking the Bushie's secrets were threatened with treason charges, and even if the charges didn't stick, she would have been shouted down by the GOP majority, smeared by the right-wing media, and ended up with her political career completely destroyed. She did what was pragmatically, if not ethically, the best thing to put an end to it - she worked on defeating the GOP and the Bush Administration at the ballot box and getting some Democrats in charge.

And that's with the worst-case scenario of her hearing about torture and not speaking out that the Rethug poo-flingers would like us to believe.

Meanwhile, we have Dick Cheney bragging about waterboarding on Sunday talk shows, implicating Bush in the process. We have their lawyers also caught directly participating in war crimes, and we have memos and photos getting in public hands showing what was done as a result of their orders. Yet they get to skate because we're having a pointless screeching match about what Pelosi allegedly didn't do after what she might have heard if a memo coming from our government's official lying, cheating and dirty-tricks department is true. Do you trust the CIA?

:thumbsup:

But if there's one thing they can count on, it's the democratic circular firing squad.

that Pelosi is "irrelevant".

Anyone that authorized the torture participated in the commission of the act. If she was aware of it and did nothing to stop it, then she is part of the conspiracy - part of the crime.

(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

She is subject to an investigation as is anyone else that may have been provided information or had any knowledge that the abuses and torture were being committed.

the OP made no reference to that and my response was to the OP, you know the statement that Pelosi is irrelevant.

I'm not saying she is guilty of anything, I am saying that everyone who had any type of relationship with the intelligence community that knew or should have known about the torture should be investigated and prosecuted if evidence exists that they broke the law.

she was not an active participant even if she was briefed. In any case, Senator Graham is also calling the CIA on lies. And how much information were they given. She's a frickin' side show and you are being played.

she was told about the torture and did nothing. She had an obligation to act, she took an oath about protecting and defending the constitution too.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

The reason they have to report to the Intelligence committees is so that the "checks and balances" can remain in place, so that congress can make sure that the executive branch is not violating the law.

I completely agree with you that ALL members of Congress should abide by their oath of office. The sad part is very few do to the letter.


But let's put this whole issue into perspective.

At the time the congressional leaders were briefed, emotions were still very raw from 9/11. We were being told almost on a daily basis to expect another attack. There was plenty of fear mongering going around. Anyone who questioned the administration were being called unpatriotic, or worse. The Dem's were demanding, although they were in the minority, to be briefed on the treatment of detainees.

Finally the Bush administration agreed to brief a very small number of congressional leaders, without staff, recording and note taking were prohibited. They were told they could share absolutely no information with anyone after the briefings. So I suppose if anyone had leaked the information they could have been arrested for treason.

The Dem's were in the minority, the press was not our friends. The country was angry and trusted the Bush administration so much they re-elected him for a 2nd term.

I don't trust the CIA as far as I can see them. They can fabricate anything they damn well want to. For them to say they have documents that affirms Pelosi and others were told the extent of the "enhanced interrogation" comes as no surprise. They could produce any document they desire.

I'm not ready to string up Speaker Pelosi on the say so of the republican propaganda machine.

Further if that same machine is now pointing fingers at Pelosi and saying ...she knew all along there was torture; then aren't they agreeing there was torture. And if so, the whole bunch of them belong in prison.

This is a classic distraction maneuver. To shift the glare of public scrutiny away from the real evil doers and shine it on a ridiculous strawman; Bush administration engaged in torture....no they didn't, but Nancy Pelosi knew anyway.

As someone else has already said here....let there be a full investigation, and let the chips fall where they may. In the meantime, lets point fingers where they should be pointed; at the ones who conceived, justified, approved, implemented and concealed torture.

I specifically typed "if, as is alleged by the CIA". I'm not saying to string her up, I personally don't believe the CIA. I think they are lying and trying to turn the focus of any investigation on others and/or are trying to derail any investigation.

Some of the individual agents with the CIA were obtaining their own insurance and lawyers, they knew the torture was illegal and they were trying to protect themselves. Many left the agency or took the demotions or transfers rather than participate in the crime.

I'm not hanging her out to dry I am saying that a thorough investigation needs to be conducted and that anyone that conspired to torture others, that took part in the discussions and actively or passively approved the torture should face prosecution.

Your "classic distraction" argument furthers the distraction. Pelosi has asked for an investigation, that is what stops the distraction. To stop defending or explaining away and to simple say "all who had a part in the crime should face the charges". To shut down their efforts to play the "she did it too" game by simple stating, if she did know then she faces charges.

But, still stand behind what I posted. And if I read you last post correctly, we are on the same page.

:hi:

The efforts being wasted to dismiss the discussion regarding Pelosi as "distractions" become the distraction, so you are participating in the game they have put in to play to protect themselves and/or to derail an investigation and prosecutions.

To simply stand your ground and say "torture is wrong, torture is a crime and everyone that had a hand in approving it, knew about it and remained silent, participated in torturing and/or observed as others were tortured should be held accountable" is the route to take - don't allow the divide, the partisan attacks, be united - investigations should be had and all who should be charged, whether they be dem, repub, indie, soldier, cia agent, bush admin, general, should face the charges and answer for their roles in the crimes committed in our name.

Quite possibly the most annoying three words to use in beginning ANY sentence. :shrug:

I obviously agree that the side-show about Pelosi is a laughable, pointless distraction ... in that the attackers tacitly imply that war crimes WERE committed and then, in their very next breath, claim there's "no 'there' there." Logical, rational thought just doesn't seem to be very common these days.

That is pretty much the bottom line for cheney and his boosters. Media is not asking these questions tho, are they??

Then, the SAME people are saying "Nothing but fraternity pranks. Nothing to see here. Move along."

:wtf: It's fucking insane that suck blatantly two-faced partisan acceptance of war crimes goes without having the whistle blown on it, let alone without prosecution.

...and wondering WTF??? regarding so many of the posts here today.

I think many are wanting to be morally consistent, i.e., torture is wrong and whoever is complicit should pay.

Well, sure. But the thing is, right now there is a media pile-on happening, whose sole purpose is to deflect the question of who ordered and carried out the torture, vs. who might not have done enough to stop it.

Well at least we are getting to a point where the fact that torture was committed is being acknowledged, even if inadvertently. Because if torture was not committed, then what is it, again, that Nancy has to answer for?

What is really happening, is the Republicans and their water-carriers in the media are being shocked to the core by the fact that their strategy of trying to make others complicit in their crimes, is not working to cover up those crimes. So they are attacking those they tried to make complicit, still believing it will work. And Pelosi and Graham are striking back, and saying Not so fast, there, bub: you did not tell us all of what you were doing, and when, and we're not going to stand by silently while you make claims that are untrue. And she's calling their bluff by saying Let's have a truth commission. And that, of course, is the last damned thing the really guilty parties want. So they are creating a veritable maelstrom of muddied water, hoping beyond hope that the American people will want to blame Pelosi et al for the sins of the Bush / Cheney administration, rather than Bush and Cheney and attorney-general whats-his-name (I don't remember right now, which actually seems fitting), and Yoo, and Adelman, and and and...

Thank you Nancy for standing up to the monsters. I'm not your biggest fan, not by any means. But in this case you are on the side of the angels.

...so I'll correct it here: Please change "and Yoo, and Adelman, and and and..." to read: "and Yoo, and Addington, and and and..."

Thanks, :-)

have it in for Pelosi, but rather are interested in showing the world that we as a country want to own up to our mistakes and prosecute those who would thumb their nose at the rule of law. It's the only way to regain the high ground that W so foolishly squandered.

If Pelosi is caught up in the investigation, then that's on her. If she's not, well then, all the better. I personally hope she is not. But whether she is or isn't has no bearing on my desire to shine a light on these cockroaches that allegedly raped children, among other things.

briefed. She did not authorize, design or carry out torture. And neither are congressional repukes if they were so briefed. this is a total repuke and MSM trap and it's pointless.

I certainly don't wish Pelosi any harm. If she is a non-variable, then she cannot be harmed by an investigation. Respectfully, what am I missing? :shrug:

to focus on her. The MSM is doing it. The repukes are doing it, and obediently, so are quite a few progressives.

But again, if she is not culpable (and I don't think she is) her innocence will come out in the process and the real guilty parties will have to find someone else to hide behind, assuming there is anyone left.

Let Pelosi deal with her slings and arrows - it comes with the job. Release the photos and go after these subhuman pieces of garbage that order and perform child rape.

Herding democrats is like herding bees.

Whatever she might have known doesn't compare to the brown-shirted savages who carried it out, and the ones who authorized it. It's time to ferret out the torturers and get rid of them. Fire and prosecute.

War criminals, and those who are not war criminals. There aren't any shades of in-between, you know? If Pelosi was complicit-- even if only by silence-- then she is in the war criminals group along with the other war criminals, like Cheney and Rumsfeld. If she isn't then she has nothing to fear from a full investigation, and she should, in fact, be facilitating that investigation, if for no other reason than to clear her name. But if she is complicit, then it's not a witch hunt pursuing her-- it's justice, just like the justice that will eventually catch up with the other war criminals.

I'm already seeing a lot of non-Nancy fans (such as myself) defending her. Maybe she is complicit, but I don't trust the Repubs to make up my mind for me.

Still, as this thread demonstrates, there are people out there who's intense dislike of Pelosi is letting them be led around. So keep spreading the word.

After she took impeachment off the table, I lost any trust I had for her.

I have zero love for Nancy, but this approach actually hurts the very thing we're pissed off at her for not doing. We can't get impeachment, but perhaps we can still get some justice for torture. By taking your approach you're actually helping the very people you wanted brought to justice get away with it. Your anger makes sense, but the resulting approach on this issue now doesn't. The matter is simply too big for spiteful grudges. :shrug:

In my opinion, she and the torturers are one and the same.

They are all criminal. If it takes Pelosi going down to get them all, so be it.

and she's now getting her comeuppance.

The only word that comes to mind is GOOD!

She and Condi should have to share a cell for the next two decades.

But hey, let us know how that works out for you when you let Nancy take the fall for Condi and the rest. I'm sure while Bush, Cheney and Condi are sipping martinis you'll be secure in the knowledge that your anger helped push that justice through. :patriot:

ALL the criminals need to go down.

Pelosi included.

What did she sign? Who did she torture? I'm sure you have proof of that too...

so many other issues going on.

Sad to say, it would not shock me to discover Pelosi is a politician like all the others.

But on the upside, there are many politicians I do respect, who are well informed, and doing their jobs.

I'm getting the same creepy feeling from Pelosi that I first got when Joe Lieberman called a press conference to announce to the world that he was taking the antibiotic Cipromax because he may or may not have been exposed to Anthrax.

I think Pelosi is a good person, but that the less she says, the better, frankly.

That's just my two cents.

EDIT:

If you doubt I'm True Blue, go back and search for all the times I have defended her.

I'm just tired...

Time to move on...

I respect you, Nancy. I have defended you.

Get the fuck out of the way and let Obama do his magic.

As someone told me here recently: "It's not about you."

about Nancy or anyone else in Congress until everything is declassified.
The fact that Bob Graham is backing her story and the fact that she wants the briefings declassified are both in her favor,imo.

When it comes down to believing republicons and the CIA vs the Dems and Pelosi, I'll take the Dems every time.

And you're right. It IS a big scam and diversion.

And Pelosi's hands were tied as far as revealing ANYTHING she learned in these confidential briefings. It would have been a breach of security to publicly discuss any of these details, but no one here knows what she privately did or did not do. It is unfair to criticize her at this point, and it is definitely playing into the Republican strategists hands.

Sure, it ticked me off when she said impeachment is off the table. But I also knew it was not her decision.

Sam

want to exonerate themselves, they should be pushing for investigations into the Bush torture programs, and for prosecuting the people responsible.

So far, I've mostly been hearing a lot of talk about "looking forward" and forgetting about those crimes that happened "in the past".

The CIA is neck deep in this mess and Cheney and the CIA have shifted the focus off of the machine onto one individual...

Even if Nancy knew....if she would have made public the information she would have been prosecuted.

If she wrote a letter to the WH and the CIA it would have been ignored.

So really what could she have done? How could she have impacted anything the * admin was doing? I don't hear anyone providing that answer.

By the two party/same corporate master system of government. Once again, as with Clinton, a Democrat gets the White House and people reflexively let their guard down and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Yet the outrages continue, the wars continue, the expansion of the executive branch, the expansion of the police state, all of this goes unchecked and unremarked because it's a Dem who's in the office.

That's what's truly sad.

That is what's truly sad.

So many here live inside the comfortable little box.

that, I agree, is sad, but it's the reality. If you want it to change, you should start on the local level.

long live Nancy Pelosi!

Oh no, sorry, being played by only the repukes at the CIA. This post belongs in the Dungeon.

tough for you that there's no way you'll succeed.

ie. your post.

your naivete makes me sad.

Some of us here remain silent rather than get into a contentious back and forth with someone who is just looking for attention (in many cases).

And you know what? We can't have a Nuremberg while we're still invading Poland. They are all complicit. All of Congress. I believe Kuchinich is the only member who spoke out against all of this and never wavered.

The rest? Well, rather than risk being called traitors they became good Germans.

The good Germans were on trial as well at Nuremberg. As all of us will be at some point. Those of us who were, and still are, good Germans.

Some of us prefer not to be. And we will speak out. And not be told we can only speak out against Republicans.

Cheney's distraction is working. Even here on DU. Sad is right.