The Great Experiment: 1776-2000 CE. R.I.P.

It seems as though our founding fathers were correct. The maintenance of the American Republic was left ultimately in the hands of the people, and because of our neglect, we've lost it. We have no control anymore, and, as Steppenwolf put it, it's become a monster that will not obey.

When we were first told that we wouldn't be pursuing criminal charges for those in charge of prosecuting an illegal war or violation of the Geneva convention and U.S. law on torture, ostensibly so we could concentrate on much-needed progressive "reforms," I grumbled a little, but thought, "well, maybe we do need to spend our political capital on getting things done." It wasn't a great argument, but there wasn't a lot we could do about it. Yell and scream all we wanted, the decision had been made.

But here we are, looking at the so-called "reforms" that have come down the line and thinking "hey, this isn't what we signed up for. This wasn't what we had in mind when we worked so hard to get a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democrat in the White House." In fact, what we're seeing of health care "reform" and the credit card "reform," not to mention billions of bailout dollars going to the very people who've put us in this mess with very little managing to go to the people who not only need it the most, but have the best chance of jump-starting the economy through domestic spending. Not that it's likely to do a lot of good in the long run because too many jobs of value have been outsourced and it doesn't look like anyone is interested in getting them back.

In short, the "reforms" we're seeing are like slapping a band-aid over arterial spray. The American economy is bleeding out, and those who are allegedly "smarter than us" are arguing about which band-aid to use. We, in short, are being robbed blind and lied to by everyone in charge.

Nice.

And even worse (and, yes, it does get worse), the fact that we're declining to investigate the crimes done in our name, in pursuing justice against those who dragged our name so far into the mud, leaves them in position to come back around at us in a decade or so, after the complicit corporate media has a chance to launder the Republican image and the vast majority of Americans have forgotten the worst abuses. Americans are optimists, which is often a good thing, but expecting "good" out of the baddest of the bad isn't optimism, it's naivete at it's most basic level.

Witness how the media has handled the whole Obama/Cheney "dueling speeches" nonsense. This war criminal is being held up as a viable counterpoint to the President, and his approval rating is climbing. He's like the embodiment of evil, or at least as close as we're likely to see in this day and age--easily as vile in his way as the worst Islamic terrorist or brutal dictator. Yet he's being allowed--no, invited--to whitewash himself in the eyes of the American people.

I don't have a lot of faith in our leadership at this point. We know what the Republicans stand for, but I'm not sure what our leaders stand for. Not us, certainly. Or at least, it doesn't appear that way.

Pretty speeches are one thing, but words are just that. Words. When one's actions don't jibe with what one is saying, it sends a clear message. WE aren't important anymore. We can be lulled into silence, hypnotized into complacency, and left standing in the dark while our country is dismantled around us and shipped off to parts unknown. Or, at least, a significant number of us can. And those of us who are most likely to act as watchdogs are laughed at, disdained, and marginalized.

I was all ready to cheer this administration on. I thought it was a wonderful thing that we'd elected an intelligent, articulate, self-admitted Geek to the White House. The fact that he's African-American (quite literally) made it even more of a victory. But the one thing I've seen in the first 100 or so days is that we're moving in the wrong direction on almost every issue, and those where we're not, we're being asked to accept a placebo in place of anything remotely like a cure.

I'm not impressed. And I really, really wanted to be.



edited for clarity

:cry:

You want to deal with Republicans again in ten years or so? I don't. The next time they'll be even better at doing what they do.

You must have a vision into the future from one of your infinite numbers of Earths.

It's pretty hard to judge the future from the present, or so it seems to me after 63 years on the planet. But, if you say everything Obama's done is wrong, well, I guess you have a clearer vision than I do. I only have this one Earth to view.

For pete's sake...

given what we know about how it worked out the last few times we did it? You think the decision to continue many of the same practices as the Bush administration (minus torture, though we don't want to find out what THAT was all about) is a good idea?

Did you?

But thanks for letting me know. Really.

But words don't change anything.

Are not not calling for change? If not, what's the point, or are you just pointing and hoping that something is in line with your finger?

See, the one thing people aren't seeing is that the Republicans will oppose ANYTHING that looks like forward motion. Just the health care debate has them screaming "socialism." So why not go for broke? Why not shoot for the moon? It's a basic premise of negotiation--ask for something FAR beyond what you think you'll get. If you start asking for scraps, you'll be lucky to even get that much.

to good effect. I keep wondering why the Dems won't try it? Still, they continue not to, preferring to start negotiations from lame compromise positions, with predictably lame results.

It's good to see that a few folks actually get it rather than bemoaning its "melodrama."

:shrug:

But it's the same old non sequiturs. So many people hear the eloquent speeches and believe, despite the actions to the contrary. Ah, well. I guess it's time for the next generation to learn the hard way.

Your title struck a chord with me. I was thinking just today that the 2000 election was an even bigger disaster than I realized. Sure, presidents have always done sleazy, awful things, but we always hope that someone who speaks to our concerns will come along and set things right. But Obama insulted our intelligence today. Dan Froomkin has a thoughtful piece on the speech, and of several things that are troubling, one sticks out in particular:



From Obama's speech:

On one side of the spectrum, there are those who make little allowance for the unique challenges posed by terrorism, and who would almost never put national security over transparency.

Greenwald addressed this in the comments to one of his pieces today:


And the larger problem of Obama giving centrist cred to extremist right-wing ideas is one that will affect this country far more deeply than many seem willing to grasp. Ah well. Americans are truly, deeply, madly stupid.

As for anyone defending our endless war on terror, the endless war presidency, the extralegal military tribunals, the prison at Bagram AFB, and the notion of imprisoning people indefinitely without charges, I have a question: didn't I hear you railing against all these things for eight years? If any of you were speaking up for all of this during the Bush maladministration, I must have missed it.

nothing more

So it was THEM doing all those horrors, so of course those are horrors. Now it is OUR anointed one doing them, so it is all honky dory and they will be fine with it as LONG as it is a D doing it.

Attitude sickens me, but hey even pointing this out round these parts can get you into some ahem, trouble.

...didn't I hear you railing against all these things for eight years? If any of you were speaking up for all of this during the Bush maladministration, I must have missed it. :applause: :thumbsup:

Just because you say it's wrong, doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. Just wrong from your point of view.
GAC

within ten minutes of being inaugurated, I knew our country was doomed. Doomed!! DOOMED!!!!

How about actually going after the people who did their best to destroy this country's reputation and economy? How about using a bully pulpit to actually DO something for the people rather than offer more vague speeches about hope and change in the midst of more of the same?

okie dokie and we are just getting started there.

:eyes:

Jebus! Obama has had four months to solve all the ills of the nation, and he has failed. We're doomed! The world might as well explode. Come soon, Jebus! :sarcasm:

At what point would you accept that it's not getting done? A year? Two years? Four years?

I'm seeing that happen on a daily basis. You're not? What things are you measuring, if I may ask?

For one thing, McCain isn't President. The process of doing something about health care has begun, even if it's not going quite as quickly as I'd like, nor in the direction I envisioned. There's some movement in Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess I was not as optimistic about the speed of disengagement as you are. I figured it would take more than four months.

Several GLBT people have been appointed to high-level positions. The end of DADT is still in sight, even though it wasn't instantaneous.

The markets are up a bit. Boy, was that a surprise to Obama, huh? He didn't anticipate taking office under those circumstances, did he?

But, hey...you're the visionary, not me. I'm just an observer of things as they happen. I don't have the benefit of an endless chain of Earths, each with its own path.

I guess we're doomed, though, as you say. I'm just going to give up now. Yessir...it's all over.

And, seriously, what does my fiction have anything to do with this? I don't confuse the two.

The direction you'd envisioned? C'mon, they're talking about mandatory health insurance for gawd's sake. More power to the people who've put us in this position. Mandatory health insurance? How could that possibly be an improvement? How about taxing health insurance benefits as income? Now there's a winner. Force people to buy insurance, then steal money from them for the privilege. Sheesh.

I didn't expect the wars to end instantly. I knew it would take time.

How about energy independence? Sure, the CAFE standards have been increased, but that's another band-aid. We need real investment in renewable energy.

Billions of dollars going to banks, yet no attempt to rein in some of their worst practices. At least they attached major caveats to the auto bailout.

And what signs are you seeing regarding DADT?

Obama's the one person the corporate media can't ignore. And he's not really taking advantage of that in a way that helps the people. Mostly he's using it defensively, and that's not a good sign.

It's difficult to see measurable progress (a) when you're in the thick of it, and (b) when progress has only just begun. Ostensibly, many of the 'public' things Obama has done haven't been overtly 'progressive', or necessarily what you signed up for. Fine. But do understand that most of politics occurs behind doors, outside public view. It's only after history is written that we see, and can appreciate, the progress (or the slide). For example, it took less than 10 years, but we put a man on the moon. There was bitching and whining that enough wasn't being done then, too. But it got done. Shoulders back. Chin up. Move forward. Do your part.

Very well said.

Utopia will never be, but getting closer every day...

how 'bout those new mileage standards, eh? That's something Bush refused to do that we've needed for decades, and Obama got it done already. I was pretty damn impressed with that.

DU certainly has its share of crazies.

Fortunately, these morons have zero political influence.

It Was Worth A Try.





On the bright side, a few other countries improved their lot by borrowing inspiration (and sometimes a Constitution or two) from the American Experiment. They even have health care for their citizens...

hasn't it always been like that?

it mattered.

edited to correct a typo

the CIA was overthrowing countries and assassinating people with no public accountability whatsoever.

Bush administration figures are preparing to defend themselves against charges under statutes that didn't exist in the 1980's.

Under Junior, they no longer even paid lip service to pretense. They did so many flagrantly wrong and illegal things in the open, or nearly so, in part undoubtedly because of arrogant utter contempt for We The People and those who are supposed to serve us (and that contempt was warranted, in a way, because they were never seriously called on their behavior by anybody). Politicians have always been dishonest (many, anyway) and self-serving, have long been owned by corporate interests in countries like this, and have done a lot of questionable and outright illegal things behind closed doors -- Nixon was one of the first to be caught, or at least reported on, and his actions and failings were child's play compared to those of today's neocons.

War crimes are pretty much inevitable to some degree in war, torture has long been performed by agencies of this country and most others, and unwarranted wars far outnumber those with real cause. But during the Bush II maladministration we saw levels of such excess perhaps rise even higher than they likely were before and, more to the point, do so in plain view. Clinton was impeached over something that should never have been an issue and Bush, Cheney et al. get away with murder, literally, in a Bizarro USA where torture has become official policy and talked about in the open by politicians. Big difference. And, I suspect, although lots of this bad stuff's been happening forever even when it was officially illegal, okaying it on any level will only make it more widespread, more entrenched, and far worse in its extent.

And the increasing militarization of our culture (swat teams, tasers, cops in schools, boot camps for teens, airport body searches) is perfectly in line with the increasing militarization of the executive branch. Our whole society is being wired for violence by the powermongers, and most of it is really just an afterthought.

I think I've had all the reality I can stand for one day. It's time to watch an episode of the original star trek and chill. Beam me up, Scotty!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3887730#3887931

Here's another example.

I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.

NOW HEAR THIS

President Obama is not George W. Bush.
President Obama is not John McCain.
He has been President for just four months.
Give it a fucking break!

THAT IS ALL!

It's like Obama's birth certificate business. As soon as you see somebody claim it, you know what the score really is.

It's all poisonous, though.

Try again. My bona fides are well established.

Did it really take you only ten minutes to come up with it, or did you have help?

:rofl:

You want to show where I said any such thing?

That's damning with faint praise. And given how vastly different Obama's background is to Bush's, how unlike their whole life stories are, isn't it even more flagrant, more unbelievable, when Obama continues some of the most agressive, abrasive policies that most of the world has come to identify with Bush?

Now Obama says he wants a legal framework for indefinite preventative detention. If Obama really means what he says, he wants power to imprison people on his say-so forever, without recourse. Look at history and check what kind of people wielded such power and to what ends they used it.



Strawman. Please stop. The complaints you are seeing about Obama are NOT about what he hasn't done, but specifically about the decisions and positions he HAS already taken.

ed: typo

All I've seen so far is unnamed sources saying he was considering it. Thanks.

here:

Facts and myths about Obama's preventive detention proposal - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/22/preventive_detention/index.html

Other than that, all Obama let on in his speech the other day was "we will pursue a new legal regime to detain terrorists". The initial report seems to have been the NYT piece: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.html?_r=2

I don't think that at all. Letting the fuckers get away with it, on the other hand, so they can come back around and do it again in ten to fifteen years, really pisses me off.

They've been doing it since John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts. Somehow the country didn't fall apart when Andrew Jackson told the Supreme Court to go fuck itself, it didn't fall apart when Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, it didn't fall apart when Wilson illegally raided the offices of political dissidents, and it didn't fall apart when Nixon illegally wiretapped civil rights and anti-war groups.

Yes we're certainly at one of our historical low points in terms of rule of law and how we proceed from here on out is important. But to assert that this is the end of the republic is ridiculous.

n/t

I don't have it to spare.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I see by all the ignoreds that DLC is out in force today.

I concur wholeheartedly with every word you wrote. Not impressed here, either.

But then I'm another one of the silly fringe who thinks the Rule of Law isn't meant to be adhered to only when convenient.

"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine

WE are always expected to move to the Right, which allows them to move even further to the Right-which means that the "center" is....just where the corporate crooks wanted it to be.

Lots to remark about that makes total sense. I'm with you, I LOVE Obama, but something has gone terribly wrong somewhere, and although it's still early, I really hate to think he is just trying to get his agenda through first before prosecuting,...hell, they'll all be in Paraguay by then. On the other hand, because Cheney has been reported to pretty much act as a mafioso, whose to say he hasn't threatened Obama and his family, telling him in no uncertain terms to look the other way. Nothing like a death threat! Or maybe there is something else that's got him by the balls...something we don't know yet...It's not so far-fetched or tin-foily.

you expressed my thoughts exactly though--something has gone terribly wrong. I had my doubts about Obama, but found myself thrilled and excited about the future when he was elected. I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel yet; maybe he's such a brilliant political chess player that he's thought out moves far ahead of what I see, but each day I begin to wonder more and more if my doubts were not only called for but that if anything, I was actually not doubtful enough. Please, please Mr. President, I hope you and our party's leadership ( oops---leadership-- that's sort of a strong word for em) show me I'm wrong and that your defenders here and elsewhere are right. Nothing would make me happier than to see you validate the exhortations of the "just give him some time" crowd.

1) Title your Post "American Republic, 1776-200X," or some variant.
2) Write some shit.

:eyes:

What a waste of electrons.

The requiem is bit embarrassing.

What's next, a sole tear slowly trailing down the face of a grizzled old soldier?

I mean, restrain yourself a bit.

more me, me, me, me, me. ugh.

No, you twit, I've got decent health insurance. It's not about ME at all. I don't use credit cards. Again, not about me. But thanks for playing.

prognosticating. oh, and try not to lose your cool, sweetie. it's obvious that my words stung your precious ego. what a shame.

I wonder what it would take for you to begin to question, or if you'd continue sounding the fanfare trumpets until everything crumbled to dust. In truth, I hope you're right. But I greatly fear you're wrong. If it soothes you to believe that this is about me, do so. But so far all of this has injured me very little, though it has caused others great harm. But what does it say about you that you cannot see an involvement in these things unmotivated by self interest?

It is fine by you if criminals walk free, spreading their poison, with no one to call them to task. It is fine by you if the most vulnerable still have no voice and are ground yet under the feet of industry. As long as you get to feel impressed with yourself because you backed a winner.

I'll continue to question, whether it pleases you or not. What you perceive as an attack is but a query, a disturbing vibration at the edge of complacency. Sit tight within your certainty and let it warm you. But if it turns out that we are right and you are wrong, will you go down with the ship like the Bushites, or will you finally leap free of the sinking monolith and join us in the frigid waters of doubt?

If faith came easily to me, I'd be a religious man. As it does not, I am not. In some respects such faith is enviable because it can placate the stirrings of anxiety. But sometimes anxiety can be the herald of truth. It is not in me to give any politician that much trust. So far few have earned it. Winning an election and speaking well doesn't quite do it for me for some reason.

However, I am not at all certain I'm correct in my assessement. I will state that plainly. But I think questioning authority is a far wiser course of action than blind trust.

Good luck with that.

Since these people certainly don't want to live in a place that would elect Barack Obama president.

:eyes: Over the top.

I'm disappointed in the way things are shaping, but I can't say I'm surprised. I like Obama, but he's a very cautious guy. We have that on the authority of his former poker buddies. He doesn't play to win. He plays not to lose. That style of play is frustrating and ultimately not very successful. The other guys in the game figure it out pretty quick, and lose all fear of you. The way he talked in the campaign, I thought he might turn out to be a real leader. Ah, the audacity of hope. Still, he's a smart guy, and I believe he means well. Maybe he'll figure it out as he goes along.

It's not about "Obama's just like Bush." That's a strawman. It's a lack of foresight, courage, and dedication to real change. Like I said in my other post (also on the greatest page) "The First Rule of Negotiation," if you want to gain anything worthwhile, you have to ask for far more than you expect.


edit for link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5698271&mesg_id=5698271

The US was just as corrupt (if not more so) and opposed to certain human rights at the founding of the nation and all throughout our history. You're imagining a "golden age" that never existed.

I'm mourning the death of pretense...

At least, with the pretense, there was hope that the reality might someday catch up to the ideal. If they're done even with pretense, there isn't a lot of hope left.

I have been saying the exact same thing since 2001.

Maybe we still ARE wrong about it. It is possible, you know.

But as time progresses, the Corporate GOP-M$M continues it's game of "plausible deniability" that is the centerpiece of the Greatest Propaganda Machine in Human History, and Obama, for whatever reason (it no longer matters WHY - it just IS), continues to track right like a tiger shying away from the trainer's whip (in the same fashion ALL Democrats seem to, for the last 30 years), it becomes clear that the tepid changes he is attempting to make won't even slow Cheney down when he gets back into office (by proxy)

As I had said so many times for so many years, when the Bushies pick up, it will be like they were never gone, just like in 2001.

Yes, it is about dropping the pretense, among other things, which opens the doors for all manner of criminality and horror like 2001-8.

And yeah, the same strawmen repeated over and over are tiresome in the extreme. How bad is it going to be in a couple years?

I suppose there's a chance the strawmen are right and we are wrong. But that chance is dropping rapidly, and we have a whole new generation of "keep the powder dry" cheerleaders even after it has been drummed into us time and time again THAT DOESN'T WORK.

This is Neo-Feudalism, pure and simple.

The analogy that strikes me best is a tug-of war. When the Bushies get the upper-hand they pull with all their might, and 3/4s of our side don't even pull back, or throw grease under the shoes of those few who do try to pull back.

The grease is Corporate $$$$$, which rules us all.

When it's our turn, the Democrats say, "Would you mind if we tugged just a teensy bit on this rope, please? OK, if you are going to yell at us we'll pull even more gently."

Yep, it looks as if I, and now you, were right.

It might not have been perfect, but damn, the Old American Republic (1776-2000, RIP) was a beautiful thing.

Now, it's Neo-feudalism.

The Congress goes through the motions, but nothing really changes. The money changers are too big to fail and too big to jail. Crimes are committed at the highest levels, but nobody ever pays. What the people want no longer matters. We aren't governed , but ruled. You have to wonder how much of this crap people are willing to take. Between the bankers and the military they've bankrupted the country and looted the treasury, and we all seem to be content to sit around with our thumbs up our butts arguing about who's going to be the next American Idol. I can pretty much guarantee you that George Washington and John Adams would not be amused if they could see what we've become.

It's always "oh, we might be opposed." No shit? The way the Repugs deal with opposition is rolling right over them. We don't have to adopt their methods, precisely, but we DO need to understand we can throw the net a little wider. People were offered "change." So what's wrong with actually working to give them change? And I don't mean primarily symbolic victories.

Like I said in another post--the first rule of negotiation is to ask for far more than you believe you're likely to get. If we must compromise, there's no point in asking for something anywhere close to what we believe we might actually be able to get. That's not negotiation, that's surrendering before the fight even starts.

Gawd, I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But I can't get rid of this niggling feeling I'm not, and that's just too bad. I am not a man of faith. I want to see results, or even clear attempts to get something done. Baby steps aren't going to do it. Table scraps don't feed the bulldog.

You, my friend, are spot on. Talk is cheap. The only thing I'm interested in is action - action to rescue whatever's left of America's democratic process.

Welcome to my ignore list.

I knew you "follow the leader" Ditto-Dems existed in nature just as Ditto-head Limbots exist, but you are a rarer bird.

I can now enter you into my bird book having seen you in your environment and I no longer much care about you.

One more thinking man for you to put on ignore - please do not tarry you cute little omega follower you.

If it's all over, then you might as well save us all of your purist bullshit.

Where have I heard THAT before?

It's time to burn down a few corporate headquarters. Better yet, shut down a few cities. The government is not afraid of us.

and those criminals, who know no division and serve in both political parties, walk and work among us to this day, and have been responsible for most of the government's crimes the past 50 years.

But if it makes it easier for you to isolate your anger to a few short years, have at it.

At least, their fingers have been in everything SINCE then.

..are being accepted by the American public as "A thing in the past...lets just move forward"

It's simply amazing that this attitude is non-existent in the prosecuting of minor drug offenders or very minor offenses.

I wrote some time ago (when I was watching a court procedding...fixing computers) that an "A" Student..who was Black..was give a 5 year sentence
for stealing a car radio from Best Buy.
The 17 year old was distraught over his Mothers death...which is NOT an excuse but should have had SOME weight in his sentence.
But Noooo....the judge gave this basically good person (you don't get straight "A's" by being a slacker) absolutely no Break. (Also..this was his FIRST Crime..Ever)

This young man goes to prison over a Fucking Radio, while those in the Bush Crime Family go to Tahiti.

America is dying...

bush was simply the cadavers floating to the surface.

So, if you really believe all you wrote, where do YOU go from here? Gonna leave? gonna revolt? or gonna just spend your time complaining and bemoaning your plight???


What about your little corner of the world? your immediate circle of daily life. Why not devote some of your energy to making that a little bit 'better' rather than wasting energy cursing your darkness????


I'm so tired of all the depressed, hopeless, doom-saying. If it's over- then let's get over ourselves- if it's not, then why try and make it so?

We can't leave it this way, we have to keep fighting for rule of law.

What we fought against under Bush can not be allowed to be "grandfathered in" for use in future "nonpunishable" crimes by a ruling elite.

It will be harder now than it was under Bush because the ditto-head Dems only consider the lawless ruling elite a problem if they play for the other football team.

Goddess help me I think that is all our Democracy was or is to the apologists - A fucking Football game that they have won.

It is a fact that they will not help us attempt to restore our democracy, It appears party worship produces much the same rationalizing ditto-head followers no matter which party is prominent.

I fucking hate the authoritarian following intellectually lazy assholes that fold so easily to a leader regardless of that leaders conduct.

They are going to make it much harder to fight indeed.

Peace and God Bless!

That's it.

That's my only response to this tantrum of a post.


Meh.

???

is good for the gander.

My recommendation was to adopt some of the Republican techniques for fighting back, not adopt Republican techniques for running the country.

Smiley face turns into frowny face. It drinks a glass of poison with skull and crossbones. Frowny face turns into skullface then gets a smile and flies off with "angel" wings. Woe is us.