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Do you think Cheney requested the FBI to make the bust in NYC ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:21 PM
Original message
Do you think Cheney requested the FBI to make the bust in NYC ?
Edited on Sat May-23-09 01:25 PM by kentuck
To his good friend, FBI Director Mueller?

Because, it would be a good time to strike a little fear into the hearts of Americans once again, just before he gave his big speech defending torture?

Because, just the day before, Mueller testified before a House Judiciary Committee that he thought we should not bring prisoners at Guantanamo to prisons in the US? And that very evening, the Senate voted down the President's request.

Do you think Mueller discussed any of this with Cheney?

Or do you think the FBI is now loyal to President Obama's Administration and has no more connections to the Bush Administration or Dick Cheney?
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think this might be an answer?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well I'll be darned...
Not necessarily good old fashioned police work but just good old fashioned flim flam by the authorities.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I thought the people arrested reeked of rank amateurs.
Interesting thread.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. I took it as another example of "good old fashioned police work"
Nobody got tortured. The would-be bombers were suckered in by the law enforcement getting them fake bombs.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. So you think the timing was only coincidental?
I'm curious about it.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. I was curious at first about the timing
But I don't see that it helps Cheney. The reports didn't say that anyone got tortured or taken into a back room to get at some truth.

Given what others have revealed about the incident, it doesn't shed much of a kind light on the authorities. Looks like another manufactured bunch of "terrorists". You'd think that the FBI would move on from this tactic and shut down their terrorism greenhouse modus operandi.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. But does it affect public opinion...
when "terrorists" are busted right here in our "homeland"? Would that not make a lot of people more sympathetic to Cheney's argument?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Let's just say that the usual bunch will believe anything
They're entirely hopeless.

One more thing. Once someone votes for an individual, they're not that likely to turn on them so soon. Even if it's only because they don't want to admit making a mistake (I'm thinking of W voters). So I have confidence that Obama will prevail despite some of his policies. He'll even keep people like me who are spitting nails over the possibility of the administration incarcerating people who it suspects will commit terrorism in the future. I even doubt that many Independents will sway to Cheney's drum beats enough to threaten a second Obama term.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:34 PM
Original message
eleny, you might want to take a closer look at the lead FBI agent's track record
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. See my reply #4 in this thread
That being said, I don't think that the way this incident went down helps his cause.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Agree..I saw a local newscast
about it from Albany with Bloomberg and Raymond Kelly and there was no sensationalism just comments about a job well done by many orgs for almost a year.

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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Um, let me see... Nope. n/t
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. No - I don't think so
but I don't think the whole of the FBI is loyal to Obama yet. I don't trust the NSA/CIA/FBI etc. It's their job to deceive people and at this point they are still playing the same games they always have.
I do think that people in upper level positions will start to trust each other again, I just don't know when for sure. Probably after someone really starts trying to take down Pelosi, I think then is when a whole bunch of information will be released and Obama can take more control.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Big article in today's Newsday;
Crowing about the "Joint Terrorism Task Force", and their role in "foiling Bronx plot". The article looks like it was ready to go as soon as the arrests hit the airwaves.

http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-nyterr2312795842may22,0,6545713.story
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. Timing of both Congressional appearance and pseudo-plot show FBI, Mueller, look bad.
Even collusion, although the storyline lately has been the CIA into torture, Al Qaeda link, and FBI, Pentagon didn't. All very suspicious, and unnerving on who, what, Obama and the rest can depend.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. The FBI colluded with CIA by going in after torture
to get the same "information" from the detainee "without" torture. FBI "clean teams". So, you bet they were complicit.

Also, it was Haynes, a Pentagon lawyer, that went shopping for torture techniques in the first place and that approached the SERE people. So, yes, Pentagon in it up to their eyeballs.

Mueller is a BushCo fixer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he tried to oblige Darth.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. And the lead FBI agent has been at the center of some of the worst
abuses for quite some time:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x450401
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/05/the_fbi_agent_w.php

Special Agent Robert Fuller, whose name appears at the top of the federal criminal complaint in the case, had a hand in the FBI's failure to nab two of the 9/11 hijackers, had one of his informants set himself on fire in front of the White House, and was involved in misidentifying a Canadian man as a terrorist leading to his secret arrest and torture -- a case that is now the subject of a major lawsuit.
Fuller is listed as the lead agent in the arrests of four men yesterday who officials say were trying to blow up a couple of synagogues and shoot a military jet from the sky. But as in other cases of seemingly inept homegrown terrorists, the four suspects were supplied (inert) weapons from an FBI informant, and in coming weeks we'll learn more about how much that informant goaded the four suspects into carrying out the supposed acts of terrorism. The case is being prosecuted in the Southern District of New York. (James Margolin, an FBI spokesman said the agency declines to comment for this story, because Fuller is a potential witness in an ongoing prosecution.)

Fuller was involved in the earlier Canadian case as the man who interrogated a wounded Afghani teenager named Omar Khadr. (We've written extensively about Khadr's bizarre case here.) Under Fuller's interrogation, Khadr dubiously identified a Canadian citizen named Maher Arar as someone he had seen in Afghanistan. Arar was then shipped to Syria where he was imprisoned and tortured for a year. It's now been proven that Arar could not have been in Afghanistan when Khadr, under intense pressure from Fuller, said he saw him there.


Connected to Guantanamo, torture, extraordinary rendition, and now this - pretty stunning.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. And if he's out there, you bet there are others. He didn't do all of that alone. n/t
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Agreed.
It would take quite a notorious string of actions for people to put together that a specific agent is involved in them. That has happened with Robert Fuller and that in itself is quite unusual and speaks to the record he's created.

But agents are assigned and have teams that work in concert with other agencies. Agreed, he's far from alone. He sure is at the center of the worst quite often, though.




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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. No, because the "sting" was set up on Bush's watch
Edited on Sat May-23-09 01:55 PM by rocktivity
and it turns out that the "lynchpin" of the operation is a hired FBI informant who can be accused of leading the others astray:

Informant who ensnared Bronx terror suspects avoided by nearly everyone else at Newburgh mosque

The informant who ensnared the four Bronx terror suspects was the guy nearly everyone else at their Newburgh mosque had the common sense to avoid. Driving a silver Hummer or black Mercedes-Benz, Shahed (Malik) Hussain arrived at the Masjid al-Ikhlas mosque Friday mornings and stayed for hours...trying to chat up those who seemed to be down on their luck. He offered meals, jobs and advice on how to get rich.

...He was friendly. Too friendly. And that's what made everyone nervous. "We would go to the person after he talked to them, and tell them to stay away," worshiper Shafeeq Abdulwaly, 39, said. "He would ask what you thought about what's going on in Pakistan and Afghanistan...Then, I guess he'd talk about jihad and fighting."

...Imam Salahuddin Muhammad said he believes Hussain lured Cromitie and his co-defendants - David Williams, Onta Williams and LaGuerre Payen - into a plot they couldn't have carried out on their own. "None of these men had money for this," Muhammad said. "Who paid for this? The informant. The informant was buying these . The informant is the one who drove these guys around."

Onta Williams' uncle, Richard Williams, said he never thought much of Hussain, whom he recently saw smoking marijuana on his nephew's front porch...


This appeared in the New York Daily News alongside of a story talking about how "dumb" the defendants were!

:eyes:
rocktivity


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, set up on Bush's watch but...
to decide to make the bust now? Don't you find the timing just a little suspect??
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. That POTUS Obama is has full control and knowledge of
FBI/NSA/DoD/CIA/DOJ is doubtful to me. I do not believe that they are executing policies approved by a majority of citizens

I am surprised that the impending loss of Manas AFB regards Afghanistan is not big news.

I am surprised that a new separate AFRICOM (as of 11/2008) and the recent 5X expansion of the existing base in Djibouti and 4 associated FOLs established in 2001 in the Horn of Africa / Gulf of Aden region is not bigger news than long standing issues with pirates in the region.
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suchadeal Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. FBI is loyal to conservative (sic) political beliefs
The bust was the end of a set-up.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Setting up Cheney as the omnipotent evil Emmanuel Goldstein is too easy
It's an ethical get out of jail free card. And I would hope I didn't have to say this, but who knows, maybe I do: this is not a defense of Cheney and that he be held accountable for his crimes is absolutely non-negotiable, unless we care to admit we live in a banana republic.

But setting him up as the shadowy king who controls the levers of empire is a distraction, not to mention a way of avoiding some difficult truths about the way our political system "works."
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. He doesn't have to be a shadowy king who controls the levers...
Edited on Sat May-23-09 02:03 PM by kentuck
All he needs is two or three very good friends in important positions of the government, such as the Department of Defense, Centcom Commander, the FBI, and a few leftover "plants" that others have written about. He would not need to control all the levers of government.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. The FBI needed to show some muscle. Doesn't matter
if it is real or not.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. No, if it were up to Cheney
he would have let these guys actually blow something up. Then he could have said "I told you so."
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. For fear to be successful...
there doesn't need to be explosions. Remember all the red and orange alerts we went thru after 9/11, simply for the purpose of instilling fear in the populace? And it worked.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. For a while
Then it became a joke.

The boy who cried wolf got the towns attention a few times. Then he was ignored. Eventually something really has to happen to get people to pay attention again.

I really believe the subtext of all of Cheney's rants is to encourage an attack by giving the impression that it will be easy now that Obama is in charge. Remember, these neo-cons want Obama to fail. Fear mongering by itself didn't work in 2006 or 2008 and God knows they sure tried. Besides, what's the death of a few citizens on US soil if it puts them back on top? It's all just collateral damage in their grand scheme of things.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. They Could Have Made Up More Competent "Terrorists"
Not another gang that couldn't shoot straight. If anything, this bust makes a joke out of the "war on terror" as we see yet another "dry hole" in plans to blow us all to kingdom come. If this is an attempt to amp up the fear, it may have the exact opposite...call it the Chicken Little effect.

You'd think with all his cloak and dagger experience, crashcart could orchestrate something far more convincing...call central casting and Wag the Dog the right way.
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. That little "gang" in Florida a fews years back was the same
First thing I thought of when this little gang of would-be terrorists were busted was that little gang of unemployed guys down in Florida that got busted the same way. And a huge deal was made of it, but they turned out to be complete nobodies, they couldn't have pulled together enough money and know-how to have attacked a car wash.

I think in cases like these the initial headlines are what the powers that be are after; relying on the hope that people will only recall that there were these dangerous homegrown terrorists who were caught by daring police work this time, but who knows about next time.......
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I remember that!
Those were the ones that the FBI bought shoes and uniforms for? It was a joke!
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yep!
Edited on Sat May-23-09 02:36 PM by get the red out
Those guys. I couldn't remember the particulars that slowly trickled out long after the big headlines. I get the feeling someone may be reading from the same script here.

This is an article about the case:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009213418_terror13.html
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