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US still relies on torture - we're just outsourcing it. Practice increased under Obama.

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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:45 PM
Original message
US still relies on torture - we're just outsourcing it. Practice increased under Obama.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/world/24intel.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


WASHINGTON — The United States is now relying heavily on foreign intelligence services to capture, interrogate and detain all but the highest-level terrorist suspects seized outside the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to current and former American government officials.

The change represents a significant loosening of the reins for the United States, which has worked closely with allies to combat violent extremism since the 9/11 attacks but is now pushing that cooperation to new limits.

In the past 10 months, for example, about a half-dozen midlevel financiers and logistics experts working with Al Qaeda have been captured and are being held by intelligence services in four Middle Eastern countries after the United States provided information that led to their arrests by local security services, a former American counterterrorism official said.

In addition, Pakistan’s intelligence and security services captured a Saudi suspect and a Yemeni suspect this year with the help of American intelligence and logistical support, Pakistani officials said. The two are the highest-ranking Qaeda operatives captured since President Obama took office, but they are still being held by Pakistan, which has shared information from their interrogations with the United States, the official said.

The current approach, which began in the last two years of the Bush administration and has gained momentum under Mr. Obama, is driven in part by court rulings and policy changes that have closed the secret prisons run by the Central Intelligence Agency, and all but ended the transfer of prisoners from outside Iraq and Afghanistan to American military prisons.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. And anyone listening to Panetta's confirmation hearing could have known that:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Must you educate those who just don't want to know..
and those that try to ply the rest of us with their fingers in their ears..singing LALALLALA...I can't hear you.........

:sarcasm:

:hi: :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Hey, fly! I watch that hearing very closely. It made my belly flip.
Hope you all are having a good week end. :hi:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. I watched it as well..and it made me sick to my stomach...
something about the "new boss" phrase..catches in my thoughts..

rainy on the beach..but getting us out of a bad drought ..so can't complain..

will be on your coast next week for first grand child..excited is an understatement!!

Little girl clothes are so much fun to shop for, after a lifetime of boys clothes, if you catch my drift!!

Hope your weekend is lovely as well!!

:hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. I'm so happy for you!
:hug:

Don't forget to buy her a toolkit and a calculator!

lol
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I was thinking more like ..
a pink kiddie golf cart that she can follow her grandpa with!! And a pink fishing poll of course..and now there are those lovely pink bats.......that grandma fought for years for!!

lol..and grandpa promised to play hop scotch on the beach when she is old enough!!

Gotta stock up on Pink golf balls now...

thanks..for the thoughts!!

:hug: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Rendition doesn't mean kidnapping. Look in any dictionary or encyclopedia.
Edited on Sun May-24-09 01:30 AM by Occam Bandage
I don't know where you got your skewed definition. Rendition simply means the handing-over of a prisoner from one jurisdiction to another.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. Yep
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Extraordinary rendition (outsourced torture) started under Clinton.
"The current policy traces its roots to the administration of former President Bill Clinton."

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/extraordinaryrendition/22203res20051206.html
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Under the HopeMobile for you, Obama hater!
Edited on Sat May-23-09 05:09 PM by RufusTFirefly
For heaven sakes, he's barely had 100 days!
Don't you play chess? Can't you live without that pony??

Apparently there's a point in the future where Obama'll have some sort of epiphany. Then the Hope and Change will kick in. Almost like magic!

Maybe that's why we're all "looking forward" in the mean time. We're wondering whether that point will come before the Democrats are trounced in the midterm elections. Sure hope so!
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If I get thrown under that bus one more time
I'm going to have to join the mechanics union.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. psssssss..leave the luggage home..there is no room left under the bus for extras!!
tooth brush and toothpaste and deodorant is all that is nessesary..just a friendly reminder..
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. There's room for THAT MUCH!!!!
It is crowded down here.

:hi:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. well make it one of those travel toothbrushes..no need to get carried away with a full size
Edited on Sun May-24-09 02:05 AM by flyarm
toothbrush..kindly consideration for lack of space is helpful, and greatly appreciated by all of us under here!!!!

I apologize ahead of time if my elbow makes contact with any part or parts of your body! I am struggling to get to the front of the bus, where it is cooler this time of year....the exaust fumes in the back, were getting to me!

:rofl:

:hi:
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick.
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. So rendition is legal and a good thing?
Edited on Sun May-24-09 01:22 AM by Contrary1
Perhaps if we pool our money...

We could accomplish extraordinary things.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Uh, yeah. Rendition has been going on for centuries.
Edited on Sun May-24-09 01:25 AM by Occam Bandage
Rendition is nothing more than one country, or state, or province, or territory, or city, &c legally handing a prisoner (along with jurisdiction to prosecute/detain) to another.

Extraordinary rendition is rendition that occurs extralegally, in which a prisoner is rendered secretly and without legal authority.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. who would have thought..two wrongs make right.........
must make mental note to self .. to tell my children ..i was wrong all these years!!:sarcasm:

Breaking the law is now the right thing to do, according to you, because others have done so in the past..

wow ..to think my parenting skills have just been pissed all over!!

Please call Dr. Spock.............two wrongs make right..whoaaaaaa...up is down and down is up..

what baffons those forefathers were about rule of law..they needed you to lead their way into the light!

wow..how enlightening it is around here these days..

wrong when a republican does this shit..but right when a dem does it..

I am blown away..

all that college I had in History..pffffft...right out the proverbial window.

I should have had you as a professor so many years ago..

Constitution be damned according to you..:sarcasm: :shrug: :shrug: :wtf:

did you learn this crap with your blackberry or your ipod????????

Whatever...........
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Or you could actually read the article.
Which doesn't appear to have anything to do with rendition. :shrug:
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Why should the Fifth Column waste time reading
When there's Obama bashing to be done?
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. so you "read minds now".. sooo you think you are Clairvoyant..did you know i went to bed after my
Edited on Sun May-24-09 10:49 AM by flyarm
post here?? Do you know what i am eating right now?? or what i am wearing??

So you project much?????????

YES I READ THE ARTICLE ..did you read the article?????

At least I will ask you that...I wouldn't assume you did or didn't , unlike your assumptions!

Instead of projecting your fucking ignorance..I suggest you stop projecting your stupidity for all to see!

Do you read Tarot cards..or tea leaves ??????????

I think you need a new deck of cards!
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Given that you thought the article was about rendition,
Edited on Sun May-24-09 10:57 AM by Occam Bandage
when it's actually about the US letting Pakistan capture and handle its own criminals (instead of capturing people and interrogating them ourselves), it's not unreasonable to assume you didn't read past the OP's fraudulent headline. The article is about not rendering criminals.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. This is aggressive nonsense.
"Rendition" simply means the transfer of a prisoner from one jurisdiction to another. That isn't illegal by any means. It's been legal for centuries. There are even references to rendition in the Constitution: Article IV, Section 2 refers to a state's duty to render a fugitive to the state from which he has fled. If you think that rendition is illegal or that the Founding Fathers would have thought rendition was illegal, then yes, I probably would have been a better professor than the ones who so mishandled your education.

Obama does not engage in extraordinary rendition, and the article in question is not about rendition at all. It is, in fact, about Obama not engaging in rendition, but letting other countries capture and detain their own prisoners. That is a good thing.

I'm not sure what your references to "blackberries" and "ipods" have to do with anything. I don't own either, and I don't know how to read that line other than as a general broadside against the concept of modern technology. I'm pretty sure that iPods don't teach anyone anything about the law.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. How is this even rendition?
"The United States is now relying heavily on foreign intelligence services to capture, interrogate and detain all but the highest-level terrorist suspects seized outside the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to current and former American government officials.

The United States itself has not detained any high-level terrorist suspects outside Iraq and Afghanistan since Mr. Obama took office, and the question of where to detain the most senior terrorist suspects on a long-term basis is being debated within the new administration. Even deciding where the two Qaeda suspects in Pakistani custody will be kept over the long term is “extremely, extremely sensitive right now,” a senior American military official said, adding, “They’re both bad dudes. The issue is: where do they get parked so they stay parked?”

American officials say that in the last years of the Bush administration and now on Mr. Obama’s watch, the balance has shifted toward leaving all but the most high-level terrorist suspects in foreign rather than American custody. The United States has repatriated hundreds of detainees held at prisons in Cuba, Iraq and Afghanistan, but the current approach is different because it seeks to keep the prisoners out of American custody altogether.

In many instances now, allies are using information provided by the United States to pick up terrorism suspects on their own territory — including the two suspects seized in Pakistan this year."
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. It's not rendition, it's outsourcing. n/t
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Is it really "outsourcing" for Pakistan to take care of Pakistani criminals in Pakistan?
Edited on Sun May-24-09 05:54 PM by Occam Bandage
Isn't that the appropriate course of action? For it to be "outsourcing," it would have to be the case that America should be capturing and detaining people all over the world, which we really shouldn't.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. I don't believe having Pakistan enforce the law within its own territory is "outsourcing torture."
Edited on Sun May-24-09 01:27 AM by Occam Bandage
Seriously. We're having Pakistan capture, interrogate, detain, and try Pakistani criminals in Pakistan. And we're providing indirect assistance (information, logistics, &c) in the process. Why is this an outrage? Ought the United States single-handedly capture and detain everyone suspected of criminal activity anywhere in the world?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I believe the hue and cry is over the U.S. capturing prisoners then turning them over to
countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt to do what is (allegedly) illegal in the U.S.

The other part that most of us don't like is when anyone who is a "suspect" is kidnapped by the U.S., then sent overseas secretly for this type of thing. We do have laws that supposedly prohibit this type of thing. Or at least we used to.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. These specific acts are extra legal. And the larger concern
(I think) is that it is part of government secrecy. Organizations tend not to do good or well when there is so much secrecy. There is a slide into abuse that is more or less inevitable.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. Which acts referenced in the article are extralegal? nt
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. That isn't what the article is about. Look at the very first line.
Edited on Sun May-24-09 10:53 AM by Occam Bandage
"The United States is now relying heavily on foreign intelligence services to capture, interrogate and detain." What is wrong with Pakistan capturing, interrogating, and detaining Pakistani criminals in Pakistan? Or Egypt capturing, interrogating, and detaining Egyptian criminals in Egypt? Isn't that exactly what should be happening?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Yes, it is what should be happening. My reading comprehension failed me.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. It's truly disgusting.
Allowing the Pakistanis to carry out their own law enforcement when we could be having a perfectly good war over there? We're in a recession! We can't afford to let Pakistanis be taking over jobs that could be done by able bodied Xe contractors. I mean it's bad enough that these poor guys had to change their name from the badass sounding "Blackwater" to the generic tech-startup-sounding "Xe" but now we're going to outsource their work like they're some two-bit computer scientists from Berkeley? I mean it's one thing to let foreigners do those dumb nerd jobs that no Americans would want to do but this is good red-blooded MAN WORK we're talking about here.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. We seem to be having no problem blowing their people to bits.
Who needs a war when you have drones?

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. But that's completely unrelated. The OP is misrepresenting the article.
The article is primarily about the United States giving foreign intelligence services a greater role in their own countries--letting them capture, interrogate, detain, and try their own criminals in their own nations, with the US providing intelligence and logistics support. Equating that to "outsourcing torture" is nonsense.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. So he took a page from Reagan's play book
here is a hint kiddies, Empires in decline torture... it is part of the dissolution from within and the moral decline, if you choose to use those words.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. Help me out here.
Since when has the US sharing intel with other nations been "extra legal" and/or the equivalent of outsourcing torture?

All I read in this article is the US shares intel that leads to the arrest of bad guys, arrests made by other nations.

In the past 10 months, for example, about a half-dozen midlevel financiers and logistics experts working with Al Qaeda have been captured and are being held by intelligence services in four Middle Eastern countries after the United States provided information that led to their arrests by local security services, a former American counterterrorism official said.

In addition, Pakistan’s intelligence and security services captured a Saudi suspect and a Yemeni suspect this year with the help of American intelligence and logistical support, Pakistani officials said. The two are the highest-ranking Qaeda operatives captured since President Obama took office, but they are still being held by Pakistan, which has shared information from their interrogations with the United States, the official said.


What this article describes is not the extraordinary renditions - the practice of the US capturing suspects and rendering them to other nations to be tortured.

What is described in this article is just intel sharing and it has been going on for hundreds of years, as far as I know.

Now there is another article that I read posted earlier today about the abuse squads still active at Gitmo, that concerns me as that alleges torture is still being conducted at Gitmo under Obama's watch. Intel sharing - I just don't see how you can call that outsourcing torture.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Your read is correct. The OP's headline approaches libel. nt
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I'm growing tired of the exaggerate slams and smears.
They don't have to make things up, things are screwed up enough without making things up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'd hate to have Obama's job.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. Extraordinary rendition
Extraordinary rendition is the CIA activity of "transferring" or "flying captured terrorist suspects from one country to another for detention and interrogation" without the benefit of "formal legal proceedings."

-snip-

Extradition vs extraordinary rendition

"Persons suspected of terrorist activity may be transferred from one State (i.e., country) for arrest, detention, and/or interrogation. Commonly, this is done through extradition, by which one State surrenders a person within its jurisdiction to a requesting State via a formal legal process, typically established by treaty. Far less often, such transfers are effectuated through a process known as extraordinary rendition or irregular rendition. These terms have often been used to refer to the extrajudicial transfer of a person from one State to another." --Michael John Garcia, Legislative Attorney, American Law, Library of Congress September 22, 2005

-snip-

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Extraordinar...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. From my read the article is not discussing extraordinary rendition.
That article is discussing the sharing of intel.


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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. My putting the definition out there was due to the following line:
"The current approach, which began in the last two years of the Bush administration and has gained momentum under Mr. Obama, is driven in part by court rulings and policy changes that have closed the secret prisons run by the Central Intelligence Agency, and all but ended the transfer of prisoners from outside Iraq and Afghanistan to American military prisons."

and also that we have decided to keep "rendition".
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
41. Is it rendition?
If they were never in our custody and won't be, I don't think you can call it rendition. Providing intel leading to capture and interrogation by other governments is much different than handing over our prisoners temporarily to be tortured.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. The OP's title is a lie
Intelligence sharing has never equaled rendition, especially when we never make the arrests.

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