If We Don't Get It Now, We Ain't Getting It For A Long Time

I keep hearing things along the lines of "But this is the best we can get".

Slightly better but still-awful health care? "But this is the best we can get."

Fewer detainees unconstitutionally held forever? "But this is the best we can get."

Huge bonus bailouts for Wall Street plutocrats while they are allowed to economically sodomize the middle class? "But this is the best we can get."

Last time I checked, we have a Democratic President and solid majorities in both houses of Congress. This is as good as it's going to get for a long time. If Democrats don't deliver meaningful change by November of next year, the Republicans will run some fresh faces with new ideas and without the Bush baggage, and we'll lose seats.

It's now or never. If we settle for crumbs, we'll have nothing better for years, perhaps decades.

So: no more timidity. If you have Democratic representatives in Congress, tell them that they either act like Democrats, or you'll actively campaign for an *actual* Democrat next time around. Because this is IT. This COUNTS. NOW.

wasn't nearly this progressive.

The Prez and Congress are more conservative than the electorate.

The "electorate " is irrelevant. Even when SUPER-SUCKERED by the "neo-left" media, we only come up with half the campaign money needed to win.

Despite the groundswell of support for Obama from small donors, corporate and special interest money is what carried him to inauguration day. AND HE KNOWS IT!

Despite the groundswell of support for Obama from small donors, corporate and special interests money is what carried him to inauguration day. AND HE KNOWS IT!

You'll never hear him admit that. I wonder how many of his loyal supporters are willing to concede that fact?

I always wondered why the MSNBC crowd jumped so hard (and dishonestly) on the anti-Hillary band wagon. At this juncture I think it had something to do with entrenched MONEY interests.

Here on DU it was "hate the vile Clinton" 24-7 or be shun. It was dishonest and in retrospect clearly many DU people were lemming-like. Hell, the only people in the country who didn't vote for him were the anti-black crowd.

Would Hillary be a better president than Obama? Can't say.
Did Obama promise change? Yes he did.
Did I misinterpret him? I thought he he said it would be change for the better.

In a time when "liberal" is used to describe entrenched bureaucrats and "conservative" is laid on two-faced, lying, bigots, traitors and double-speakers, Obama plans to appoint a "moderate" to the US Supreme Court. That's not the sort of change he promised. I'd say it was time to appoint a flaming socialist just to bring the court back to pre-9/11 standards.

Is the SOB owned by the corporati or what? Or if he was set up to fail, that plan seems to be humming along nicely.

they've had to buy our government and elected officials and keep the truth

hidden -- look at Reid/Pelosi/Hoyers . . . !!!

If we were the National Rifle Association we'd have chased them out of office long ago!!

How does the NRA do it? We should find out!!

in 1940. Labor unions had people pounding at their doors to get in, and labor unions were agitating. There was strike violence in Detroit. There was mass-dislocation and migration of significant segments of the population to California. There was social upheaval and destabilization. And FDR had to contend with challengers from his left flank throughout his presidency, such as Huey Long.

The American public today casts more votes for American Idol than for their local Congressperson.

Your hyperbolic "Even 1936 wasn't nearly this progressive" is a ghost of the truth next to the reality of 1936. And that serves the oligarchs who count on American ignorance.

It's past time that the left had some representation, but deposing the corporatists that control the party will not be easy. We've allowed the corporations to buy both teams, and as a result, they are running the whole game. This situation makes victory impossible and so must be ended.

How is another question...

:wow: :thumbsdown:

environment, education, for starters.

I think the prez is working against a timetable, too.

I'm in TX, so just imagine my reps. :eyes:

You will actively campaign for an actual democrat. Riiiight! Good luck with that. How many of these incumbents actually have challengers?

You have to be willing to vote in the puke to threaten them. Voting for another dem threatens next to no one.

I agree with you. We can't unseat the corporatist Democratic incumbents.

We can use the InterNet to pool our resources and selectively target a few of the WORST offenders in their Primary Races in 2010.
Bayh is up for re-election in 2010 and would be a good target.

If we can radically fund a Progressive Primary Challenger, the Corporatists would have to take notice that we are watching and won't be taken for granted anymore.

However, i believe the Democrats in CT tried that with LaMont but were crushed by the powers of the Democratic Party, which in my opinion, choose Lieberman and Independent rather than the peoples choice.

But I agree with what you suggested.

we don't vote at all.

no, i don't decide what is important for the party, but i DO decide what is important for me. and i believe there are a lot of "me" out there.

i first voted when i was of age, in 1972. i registered as a democrat.

i will not say i won't consider the person over the party, but it just so happens that every time i have voted (which is every election since 72), the democratic party, rather than the republican party, has overwhelmingly aligned with my values.

i have long considered myself a bleeding heart liberal, and will quickly identify as such. but as elections have come and gone i have gotten used to the bus tire tread marks on my back, and as such, have worn them with pride.

all that to say that when i go into the voting booth, 99.99% of the time i am voting strictly party line.

no votes for republicans. nada. zip. that means if we DON'T go to the voting booth, it is not just the top office that gets hurt. the entire slate of candidates suffer.

wearing tire tread marks has gotten old. been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.

we have been pissed on election after election after election. if it doesn't happen now, it won't happen.

at this point we are looking for the walker, not the talker. we are looking for someone who has similar priorities as we do, and is willing to make the necessary HARD choices, no matter the resistance from the tired hacks who have gotten us to this point (that is NOT a snark at obama, but at the republicans, the yellow/blue/whatever dog democrats, the miltary brass who think of the services as a club where the common bigot must be made comfortable, over the safety of our nation, the so-called christians who are anything BUT). we are looking for someone who will not throw us under the bus as soon as we have delivered. we are looking for anything BUT the status quo, quid pro quo. i am even looking for someone who is NOT bipartisan (what's good for the goose....), who is NOT a centrist (which has pretty much been continually redefined to a point of we must all be CHRISTIAN, anti choice, anti gay, anti tolerance, anti intelligence, anti social consciousness).

what we DO want is:

equality for all. civil/human liberties will NOT be put to a popular vote. the absolute separation of church and state.

the end of wars for profit.

the people who lied us into this "preemptive" war must be prosecuted.

the people who put into motion the justification of torture must be prosecuted for war crimes.

the people who calculatingly deconstructed the constitution in an effort to take our civil/personal liberties, all in an attempt to further their march to an illegal invasion, must be prosecuted.

wall street accountability for the fiasco that is our economic system. ALL involved in the various ponzi schemes must be prosecuted.

the reasons for, and allowance of, 911 MUST be explained to the american people, or it will happen again (cheney is praying for it as i type). given the facts of what happened, and when, and who allowed it, americans are not too dumb or stupid to get the picture. if that is done, the republican party will cease to exist.

those are a start, but there are a lot more. and i know all can't be addressed, but a lot can. we'll see which ones are important.

i am hopping that obama has a plan that he is putting in place to do ALL these things. i have been disappointed recently, but i do realize things must be taken a step at at time.

so, i am trying to be patient, to see if he IS a walker, rather than just a talker. or someone who, once again, decides that some americans are more important than others, some americans must NOT have their precious values questioned, some americans must not be told the truth because they can't handle it, and some americans will always look good with bus tire tread marks on their backs. after all, where can they go?

we are just as hopeful as anyone else. but, our time has come.

it has to have come.

still hopeful....



edit for frigging spelling. geez!

It's past time to have general strikes and take to the streets!

Well said.

That there agenda is the popular one and that big majorities of Americans are on the "progressive" side. So why not oppose Democrats in primaries if you feel you are closer to what the public wants?

Just withholding support and letting the pukes win is a tactic for a small minority who wants to extort power over the large group. Maybe behind the talk "progressives" realize that their agenda can't win a popular vote. If that's the case, doesn't it make sense for Democrats to not follow it?

Sad but true. Dems count on people like me continuing to vote democratic to keep the likes of McCain/Palin out of office. It would be refreshing to go to the polls & vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone.

i have waited over 40 years and now i have to few years left. my only hope is that someday my children will live in a fair and just society.

I expected better.

Daily, my disappointment grows. I think I hit a wall the other day when Obama announced his "indefinite detention" program, and my heart broke.

We don't have any Democrats anymore - save for Russ Feingold, and a few brave others, Kucinich among them. We have cowards, you're absolutely right.

If the Watergate crimes took place today, they wouldn't even be investigated. That's how bad these weasels are ..........................

I have made my line in the sand. no more Dinos

ISN'T what I voted for, and as each day goes by, I too have become more disillusioned!!

I'm no newbie to politics, I remember Watergate and it's a blip when it comes to what is going on now!!!!

i've waited 30 years myself.

whose only job is to keep us at bay.

:shrug:

?

But I don't think it's in Obama's DNA - or Congress's DNA - to do that. I hope I'm wrong.

The congress sure isn't helping things either.

Are doing their best to make damn sure that the Republicans are serious contenders for 2010 and 2012.

Looks like the Republicans were right about something... The Democrats always manage to shoot themselves in the foot and snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

To all of you dumb fucking politicians and their minions who may be reading this: The people are fed up with bullshit and they will not suffer your stupid ass legalized bribery. They will lose interest and faith in you very quickly, and they've heard all the bullshit excuses for the last 8 years. You need We The People to get elected again, and if you think that people will never vote for the Republicans, then you are in for a rude awakening. You actually need to have the people to go to the polls and vote for you, rather than just staying home and allowing the Republicans to take it away from you. Wake the fuck up and pull your head out of your asses... Because you are blowing it!

Indeed, if we don't make progress now, a lot of progress, then we may never.

And boy, do we need progress.

We have the party to contend with. Too many conservative democrats are in high places. Place like state reps and county commissioners and city councils. They are - take your pick, the meat or the potatoes of the party. And they are our neighbors.

So, go to their meetings and be neighborly. Tell them what you want. This is America - we are free to speak. So speak at their meetings. I have been to many meetings and believe me, the cons sure do get up and bitch about everything under the sun. But hardly ever do true progressives get up and speak.

It's right there in your neighborhood - our government; and it's connected at the hip to the state and the feds. Make an impact right near home with your local government and believe me, they will pass it up the chain.

nearly 30 years of Reaganomics and Reaganomics Lite.

If the center is at "12 o'clock," the Republicans took us to 3 o'clock or more, maybe even 4 o'clock. We need at least 90° worth of leftward change to get back to where the center was when I was growing up.

Unfortunately, I don't think either Obama or the majority of Congress are up to the task, to the point that they marginalize the people who really do want change.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/scotsincanada/Tommy-Douglas-Hero-of-the.2662661.jp

<snip>As premier of Saskatchewan, he was responsible for the implementation of both free hospital treatment and Medicare. The face of the country was changed by a humble minister who had vowed that every Canadian was entitled to have access to health care.

Amen!

unless there are sustained and difficult street demonstrations which connect domestic and foreign policy. Only when large numbers of folks get outraged enough to lay their bodies on the line will anything change in the dimensions you wish for. The entirety of the US political body is wholly owned by large corporations.

K&R

damned insurance companies, oh, and drug companies. Our politicians believe that the insurance and drug companies are much more important than "We The People". I thought the election would make a difference, but money is the main goal within a damned, and I repeat, a damned Plutocracy! Norway is #1 in the world in health care, but the mighty America is #38. I am sick of it all. We can't retire because of the cost of health care and it will get much worse.

Read: "Natural Cures THEY Don't Want You To Know About" by Kevin Trudeau,

This is what the new-to-politics, just-wait, pony posters don't get. For way too many, winning the election was the culmination of their hope. They're done.

....if the democrats realize they won an election in November, 2008. Seems to me, they still think the rethuglicans are in charge and are scared shitless to challenge them. I'm so terribly disappointed in Obama and this "democratically controlled" congress, I'm seriously considering never voting again - cause it appears it don't make one god-dam bit of difference who gets elected.

Just because we think it's the best we can get doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for a lot more. If politics is the art of compromise, what good does it do starting the negotiation with the very least you expect or hope for?

"If politics is the art of compromise, what good does it do starting the negotiation with the very least you expect or hope for?" Kind of like planned failure. Maybe it is time for everybody to review their Marxist theory. Only when the proletariat realize by the sheer size of them that they have the power & they start to exercise it, will change happen. When I hear people say they don't want to vote I tell them that is what the politicians are counting on & that if we all showed up it would scare the hell out of them.

Why can't they answer that question?!

unless you can buy your own politician.

Q3JR4
Re: Health care.

It's not that they have moved to the right,or to the center,but that they have moved to the money offered by lobbyists.It's almost a flippant attitude that they use anymore with their constituents,as if they are untouchable and not accountable to anyone but the big money interests.

It may be time to start sending them home and replacing them with new blood (?).

If the Democrats fuck up Health Care Reform, I'm out of here!


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

Justice delayed is justice denied. - William Gladstone

:hi:

....of how closely united the two parties are in opposing justice (legal, social, economic) in america and in the rest of the world. the democrats are simply the truly expert bone-throwers. people don't get it. it's so obvious. always has been.

hopefully this time america will learn the lesson. with the obama dem party cheering section here. my only hope is that the masses are smarter than the dem party stalwarts and change comes from the bottom up. my hopes are not up.

Worse, they know that they are the only game in town. It is the (D) or the (R). No other choice. Both are owned by corporations.

He has reasons for breaking his promises to keep promises. Just wait. It has only been (fill in time period here)! Soon, he will make it all better!! Don't you know this is DEMOCRATIC Underground? We must have faith!!

'The Workers Party.' A third party of some kind. The 'I'm sick of working my ass off and losing ground Party.'

Of course, the Media would pay no attention...but word of mouth is the best advertising of all.

But I don't want to attract these racist angry white dudes who listen to Limpballs....

The Democrats have a solid majority in Congress many if not most are corporatist Democrats that side repeatedly with the republiCons. At least in the Senate. We have a way to go. The sheeple are still content.

What are you troubled about? That someone else, who wanted a public payer only plan, didn't win?

O's plan is to add a public option to the private option, subsidizing payments. (Of course, truly poor people are already covered under Medicaid. It's the sorta poor and those with bad insurance that need health care.)

Healthcare will still be free for poor people. Sorta poor people will have to pay something, but they should be able to afford coverage. (It'll be sort of like Medicare.) Others who have good insurance through a private plan, whether from their employer or that they pay for themselves, nothing will change (they say).

Sounds workable to me. Sounds good. Not perfect. Nothing is perfect, least of all a purely public plan. It seems to me a purely public plan would be limiting to many. Even in Great Britain, citizens can buy a private plan if they can afford it and want to.

I just love it when those who know very little about something spout off as if they're experts. :sarcasm:

First of all, the plan to which you refer ("nothing will change they say") certainly DOES change things. For starters, the corpo-preferred plan will TAX health insurance benefits in order to pay for coverage for people who are uninsured. Furthermore, they are talking about making health coverage MANDATORY.

Higher taxes, mandatory participation. Is that really the sort of reform you are cheerleading for? Back away from the pom poms. Do us all a favor and do some homework before spouting off on something you know nothing about.

pretending that they know something.

Yes, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say: Healthcare reform is needed mainly for those who don't qualify for Medicaid and who are either NOT covered at atll OR are underinsured. Reform is not PRIMARILY needed for those who have good ins. coverage already, whether through their employers or that they pay for themselves.

Got it? I knew that you would, given the information you are so sorely lacking.

The MISINFORMATION you spout, in particular:

You said, "For starters, the corpo-preferred plan will TAX health insurance benefits in order to pay for coverage for people who are uninsured." WRONG. That was McCain's plan. It was neither Obama's nor Hillary Clinton's (their two plans were virtually identical, except that Hillary's had a mandatory provision for all adults, while Obama's did not).

You also incorrectly stated, "Higher taxes, mandatory participation." WRONG. Mandatory participation was part of Hillary's plan, not Obama's. But mandatory participation will almost certainly be part of any single payer plan. HIGHER TAXES? Hold onto your little belt: higher taxes are coming, no matter WHAT healthcare reform act gets passed. But it would be necessary to raise taxes the MOST for a single payer plan. Why? Because it is the most costly to initiate: changing a huge system from one form to another would be astronomically high. And to maintain a mandatory public system would land us in the income tax brackets of Great Britain and Canada (much higher income taxes than the U.S.).

Obama's plan goes a long way taking care of those who are underinsured or uninsured currently, while allowing those who are already covered to maintain their coverage. It DOES sound logical, now, doesn't it?

Of course it does. The plan may have to be changed in order to get votes. How much remains to be seen.

Keep your eye on the ball. The goal is to help those who do not have access to affordable health care now, to get it. The goal was NEVER to change the entire system and provide supposedly free health care to all citizens.

You really should pay more attention during campaigns and debates. Did you watch all the Democratic and the Republican debates, where they talked about health care reform several times? I did. All of this was explained. If you taped the debates, watch them again, and learn.

I'm sure we'll do better under the GOP or maybe Nader will run again.

... so get back in the corner and be quiet.

Nothing is going to change until people are hungry and massing with torches and pitchforks. And if you think that can't happen here, think again.

I see that my last post on a similar topic was locked?? I regret that it was so mis-interpreted. The point of my post was that we have the "third party" within the present Democratic Party if we simply recognize it. That we should challenge those Democrats that block the progress that we fight for every day. Otherwise, what are we fighting for? The status quo?

it will take HUGE change (not rhetorical change from the lips of a politician) to make them represent our interests.

We just have more loyalty to the Party. The Blue Dogs don't hesitate to disagree with their Party.

somehow, even though we are the voters, the insurance companies and corporations own congress.

The objective is to get health care for 40 or 50 million uninsured. That may not satisfy you but to all those people it will be a big deal.

Every possible accused terrorist but a handful will get better treatment. That's nothing to you, but it probably is to them. Detention without conviction is now a desperate last resort. It used to be the rule for all. That's a big difference.

It's not now or never. If Dems over do it they'll be out of office and things will go back to the way they were. If objectives are achieved incrementally, more and more can be accomplished. If you care about the issues you claim, you won't like what could be done to be sacrificed for nothing.

Obama didn't run as a radical leftist and the radical left agenda isn't going to happen anytime soon. But if you don't think this is a big difference, compare it to GW Bush instead the far left agenda. That's real change.

you're kidding yourself. The repukes thought they were a permanent majority too. The pendulum swings in a natural cycle despite efforts to the contrary.

If we wait to implement REAL reform until (what?), it will be too late. The time is NOW, while we can.

So we won't get it now.

We may get a strong public option however.

Is that a trade-off you are willing to make?

I am not the President, or majorities of both houses of Congress. Both the President and majorities of both houses of Congress are solidly opposed to Single Payer. A strong public option might eventually morph into Single Payer, but it won't be enacted as such originally.

I am not going to pontificate on a message board that "WE SHOULD STAND FOR NOTHING LESS" when in reality, we will all accept something less because single payer is not going to be enacted.

Yep, time to ratchet up the calls and letters and whatever public 'group' pressure can
be organized to get these "centrist", ( gutless ), wonders to get with the program.

I have this Nader inspired, nagging nightmare, that says they are ALL sold to their
corporate masters, owned, in a permanent crouch from taking it without benefit
of grease, on a short leash.

The Democratic "Socialist" Party? LOL I WISH!. It would be a good start.

You have to pull it a hell of a lot just to move it a little. So it seems.

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I don't think there is any evidence that any of them were tortured. Like your boys, Dubya and Cheney, resorted to. You're talking apples and oranges.

to them like dicky & dumya ordered on human beings, all while saying they're followers of Christ! LOLOLOLOL... oh that's rich to type! LOL

I ain't thrilled with the Obama Admin. but you can bet your sweet hiney that this is 1000% better than what a (gulp) Vice-President Mooseburger and President Crankenmeister would've done so far.

to me there is a lot of buyers regret on this site ,seem to me that Obama you all believed was going to do it all for everyone on this site now that he has renege on most of what he promised you all complain . The people that back Clinton were trashed continually here because Obama was going to fix it all .Now that he is morphing into Bush light you complain.

for a long time.

and THIS is the perfect thing to RAILROAD in for the people!


DO it Congress! Do it Mr. President

JUST DO IT!